New Thread
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:53:23 -0000, "Donal"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
...

Donal, no matter what the regs say, IF you collide with anything you
are always partially responsible.

That is my understanding. The rules *do* say that you should avoid a
collision at all costs.


Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity
can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be
prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be
necessary to ensure your safety.

Yup! That is what I was taught.


However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear
comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to
sail".

Yeah, but hey, that's America,

Do you still want those files that I promised you?
I've now found the files.



Regards



Donal
--

New Thread
 

Donal wrote:


That is my understanding. The rules *do* say that you should avoid a
collision at all costs.

As opposed to what, saying something like "Yeah, go ahead run over this guy,
he's a moron anyway."



Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity
can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be
prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be
necessary to ensure your safety.

Yup! That is what I was taught.

However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear
comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to
sail".

Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable.

For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business going into
a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think it's OK to
run one down should he be there. And you?

DSK

New Thread
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:


That is my understanding. The rules *do* say that you should avoid a
collision at all costs.

As opposed to what, saying something like "Yeah, go ahead run over this
guy,
he's a moron anyway."

Huh? Why the sarcasm?




Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity
can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be
prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be
necessary to ensure your safety.

Yup! That is what I was taught.

However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear
comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way
to
sail".

Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable.

... But they should not be interpreted as binding under all circumstances.


For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business going
into
a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think it's OK
to
run one down should he be there. And you?

We are almost in total agreement.

It would be foolhardy, bordering on suicidal, for a kayak to enter a TSS in
thick fog.

However, the shipping lanes that I cross are about 5 miles wide, with a
about 5 miles between the lanes. It would be very easy to get caught between
the lanes in a sudden fog.

It would also be easy to get caught just outside the "inshore" passages in
the solent.

I've been caught twice. It was very unnerving, and led to me getting a
Radar.


Regards


Donal
--

New Thread
 

Donal wrote:

Huh? Why the sarcasm?

Oh, just the usual ;)


However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear
comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way
to
sail".

Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable.

.. But they should not be interpreted as binding under all circumstances.


For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business going
into
a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think it's OK
to
run one down should he be there. And you?

We are almost in total agreement.

It would be foolhardy, bordering on suicidal, for a kayak to enter a TSS in
thick fog.

Agreed. But in a recent thread, you (and some other people that took a slightly
more extreme stand) insisted that I (along with some other people) had stated
things that we had not, in fact, said. It got rather contentious for a while.



However, the shipping lanes that I cross are about 5 miles wide, with a
about 5 miles between the lanes. It would be very easy to get caught between
the lanes in a sudden fog.

Yes, and the great thing about ColRegs is that they provide the best guide for
how to behave in these circumstances.



It would also be easy to get caught just outside the "inshore" passages in
the solent.

I've been caught twice. It was very unnerving, and led to me getting a
Radar.

Our tugboat has a pretty good set, I am learning to use it. At first I did not
know how to tune it for a decent return, and had doubts about it's usefulness as
a tool. On our last trip I had the time & some coaching to learn how to get a
better picture, and I now believe that radar can be quite a useful small boat
tool... given the skill to make use of it...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

New Thread
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:

Huh? Why the sarcasm?

Oh, just the usual ;)


However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We
hear
comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives
way
to
sail".

Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable.

.. But they should not be interpreted as binding under all
circumstances.


For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business
going
into
a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think
it's OK
to
run one down should he be there. And you?

We are almost in total agreement.

It would be foolhardy, bordering on suicidal, for a kayak to enter a TSS
in
thick fog.

Agreed. But in a recent thread, you (and some other people that took a
slightly
more extreme stand) insisted that I (along with some other people) had
stated
things that we had not, in fact, said. It got rather contentious for a
while.

My contention was simply that a kayak could reasonably be expected to be in
a TSS. Therefore, I feel that the ships in a TSS should not ignore the
CollRegs because a "kayak has no right to be there". The CollRegs apply
equally to everybody.

In thick fog, it is not practical for everybody to observe the letter of the
law. Ships will go faster than they should, and kayaks may cross the path
of large vessels. The CollRegs cater for both, if you don't read them with
a preconception.

The language in the CollRegs is full of stuff like "appropriate for the
conditions" etc.

So, yes, the CollRegs imply that a kayak should not cross a TSS in thick
fog, and they also say that ships will travel at a speed that allows the
ship to stop in the distance that a lookout ("ny sight") can see.







However, the shipping lanes that I cross are about 5 miles wide, with a
about 5 miles between the lanes. It would be very easy to get caught
between
the lanes in a sudden fog.

Yes, and the great thing about ColRegs is that they provide the best guide
for
how to behave in these circumstances.

What do you think the poor guy in the kayak should do?






It would also be easy to get caught just outside the "inshore" passages
in
the solent.

I've been caught twice. It was very unnerving, and led to me getting a
Radar.

Our tugboat has a pretty good set, I am learning to use it. At first I did
not
know how to tune it for a decent return, and had doubts about it's
usefulness as
a tool. On our last trip I had the time & some coaching to learn how to
get a
better picture, and I now believe that radar can be quite a useful small
boat
tool... given the skill to make use of it...

The advice that I was given was "play with it". By playing with it, I've
learned that modern sets are really quite good when set to "auto".



Regards


Donal
--

New Thread
 

Donal wrote:


My contention was simply that a kayak could reasonably be expected to be in
a TSS. Therefore, I feel that the ships in a TSS should not ignore the
CollRegs because a "kayak has no right to be there". The CollRegs apply
equally to everybody.

And AFAIK not a single poster said that the ColRegs should not apply fully (and
that means equally, doesn't it?) to all vessels including kayaks; nor did
anybody imply (that I read) that ships should ignore them no matter what rights
kayakers have or don't have.

So, what was the argument about?




In thick fog, it is not practical for everybody to observe the letter of the
law.

Shucks, it's not practical hardly any time. Try going the speed limit on a US
freeway.


Ships will go faster than they should, and kayaks may cross the path
of large vessels. The CollRegs cater for both, if you don't read them with
a preconception.

IMHO the preconception was yours and Ricks, that everybody else was wrong ;)



The language in the CollRegs is full of stuff like "appropriate for the
conditions" etc.

So, yes, the CollRegs imply that a kayak should not cross a TSS in thick
fog, and they also say that ships will travel at a speed that allows the
ship to stop in the distance that a lookout ("ny sight") can see.

Yep. You never know when a kayaker, or for that matter an iceberg, might be
lurking ahead. However, as Peter and Otnmbrd and probably somebody else pointed
out, some times ships have practical constraints on them just as kayakers do.




What do you think the poor guy in the kayak should do?

Do the best he can at avoiding ship traffic by as wide a margin as possible.



... radar...

The advice that I was given was "play with it". By playing with it, I've
learned that modern sets are really quite good when set to "auto".

'Play with it' doesn't sound like particularly useful advice. Our set does not
have an auto tune feature, I guess it's not modern enough. But the first step is
to read the manual to see what the timing & coarse tune procedure is. The second
step is to get the boat to a location where you have some good radar tarets at
easily fixable relative bearings & ranges, and then use the fine tune to get the
best return picture at that range. This means getting a half mile away or more
from docks, buildings, masses of other boats, etc etc; so it can't possibly be
done (IMHO) in a slip. The step I am working on now is to work out how the
tuning has to change for different range settings & atmospheric conditions.

On our last trip, I was seing small daysailers at 8 or 9 miles and marshy
coastline at 10 miles, and getting a better return picture each time I worked
at it. I also saw a difference between adjusting to "see" rain or buildings on
shore in the rain squall. This was far far better than it would do when adjusted
in confined waters... although at one point, a mentor was showing me his ideas
on tuning the set, and we were tied up alongside in a canal... and he could get
the set to show the canal banks clearly for about two miles and some distance
around the next bend. When we got back fromt his cruise, with about a weeks
practice under my belt, our radar would show a floating soda can on still water
at about 3/4 miles. Didn't get a chance to try any kayaks though.

Very spiffy little toy.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

New Thread
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Donal wrote:


My contention was simply that a kayak could reasonably be expected to be
in
a TSS. Therefore, I feel that the ships in a TSS should not ignore the
CollRegs because a "kayak has no right to be there". The CollRegs apply
equally to everybody.

And AFAIK not a single poster said that the ColRegs should not apply fully
(and
that means equally, doesn't it?) to all vessels including kayaks;

Do you agree with Joe's opinion that "sight" means his Radar set, and that
"hearing" means the VHF?

nor did
anybody imply (that I read) that ships should ignore them no matter what
rights
kayakers have or don't have.

So, what was the argument about?

Two things.
1) People placing their own interpretation onto the rules and being
selective in their application.
2) Whether the rules state that you must keep a "manual" lookout.






In thick fog, it is not practical for everybody to observe the letter of
the
law.

Shucks, it's not practical hardly any time. Try going the speed limit on a
US
freeway.

You're absolutely correct.



Ships will go faster than they should, and kayaks may cross the path
of large vessels. The CollRegs cater for both, if you don't read them
with
a preconception.

IMHO the preconception was yours and Ricks, that everybody else was wrong
;)

You were!





The language in the CollRegs is full of stuff like "appropriate for the
conditions" etc.

So, yes, the CollRegs imply that a kayak should not cross a TSS in thick
fog, and they also say that ships will travel at a speed that allows the
ship to stop in the distance that a lookout ("ny sight") can see.

Yep. You never know when a kayaker, or for that matter an iceberg, might
be
lurking ahead. However, as Peter and Otnmbrd and probably somebody else
pointed
out, some times ships have practical constraints on them just as kayakers
do.


I know this. Did you not see where said that I wouldn't expect Peter to
worry about kayaks?





What do you think the poor guy in the kayak should do?

Do the best he can at avoiding ship traffic by as wide a margin as
possible.

Absolutely correct.






... radar...

The advice that I was given was "play with it". By playing with it,
I've
learned that modern sets are really quite good when set to "auto".

'Play with it' doesn't sound like particularly useful advice. Our set does
not
have an auto tune feature, I guess it's not modern enough. But the first
step is
to read the manual to see what the timing & coarse tune procedure is. The
second
step is to get the boat to a location where you have some good radar
tarets at
easily fixable relative bearings & ranges, and then use the fine tune to
get the
best return picture at that range. This means getting a half mile away or
more
from docks, buildings, masses of other boats, etc etc; so it can't
possibly be
done (IMHO) in a slip. The step I am working on now is to work out how the
tuning has to change for different range settings & atmospheric
conditions.

On our last trip, I was seing small daysailers at 8 or 9 miles and marshy
coastline at 10 miles, and getting a better return picture each time I
worked
at it. I also saw a difference between adjusting to "see" rain or
buildings on
shore in the rain squall. This was far far better than it would do when
adjusted
in confined waters... although at one point, a mentor was showing me his
ideas
on tuning the set, and we were tied up alongside in a canal... and he
could get
the set to show the canal banks clearly for about two miles and some
distance
around the next bend. When we got back fromt his cruise, with about a
weeks
practice under my belt, our radar would show a floating soda can on still
water
at about 3/4 miles. Didn't get a chance to try any kayaks though.

That is a partial description of "play with it". You need to do all of the
above in various states of sea also.


Regards


Donal
--