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Recently, there have been all sorts of arguments about the CollRegs.
It seems to me that everybody seems to place their own personal interpretation on the CollRegs. Sailors tend to think that "power driven" vessels should give way to them at all times. Powerboaters seem to think that sailors must keep out of their way in any sort of "lane". Recently, I noticed that kitesurfers think that everybody should give way to them because they are "Smaller". Why can people not take the CollRegs at face value? Joe says that he is exempt from the CollRegs because small boats should not be there. Jeff says that Joe is correct, but that Joe is also wrong. Are the CollRegs supreme, or can we all place our own interpretation on them? Regards Donal -- |
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Sorry Donal. I'm not going to discuss the with you since you've proven that
you're a cowardly liar. You also have no understanding of the ColRegs. Go away, grow up, and maybe you can come back when you discuss things as an adult. "Donal" wrote in message ... Recently, there have been all sorts of arguments about the CollRegs. It seems to me that everybody seems to place their own personal interpretation on the CollRegs. Sailors tend to think that "power driven" vessels should give way to them at all times. Powerboaters seem to think that sailors must keep out of their way in any sort of "lane". Recently, I noticed that kitesurfers think that everybody should give way to them because they are "Smaller". Why can people not take the CollRegs at face value? Joe says that he is exempt from the CollRegs because small boats should not be there. Jeff says that Joe is correct, but that Joe is also wrong. Are the CollRegs supreme, or can we all place our own interpretation on them? Regards Donal -- |
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EG The COLREGS are NOT supreme ......Rule 2 says so, and the courts
feel free to interpret, on a case by case basis. |
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Sorry Donal. I'm not going to discuss the with you since you've proven that
you're a cowardly liar. C'mon, Jeff. No need for such talk. I doubt Donal is cowardly or a liar, except in he pursuit of humor. Play nice, dickhead! RB |
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I AM playing nice. I'm going along with Donal's game. I don't think he really
IS a cowardly liar, but for some perverse reason that's the game he wants to play. Who am I to refuse? "Bobsprit" wrote in message ... Sorry Donal. I'm not going to discuss the with you since you've proven that you're a cowardly liar. C'mon, Jeff. No need for such talk. I doubt Donal is cowardly or a liar, except in he pursuit of humor. Play nice, dickhead! RB |
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OzOne wrote in message ... Donal, no matter what the regs say, IF you collide with anything you are always partially responsible. Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be necessary to ensure your safety. This seems to be forgotten by almost everyone, and if you are unfortunate enough be involved in a collision and dragged in to civil court as a result, you will be reminded of this important fact. That was Nils constant mantra, as if having the right of way would offer some sort of blanket protection. John Cairns |
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I'd love to move on - Donal keeps insisting this is about what he thinks I said
two weeks ago. I think its been a tremendous waste of time, but Donal keeps reviving it. OzOne wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:03:24 -0500, "Jeff Morris" scribbled thusly: I AM playing nice. I'm going along with Donal's game. I don't think he really IS a cowardly liar, but for some perverse reason that's the game he wants to play. Who am I to refuse? Damn you septics are a funny bunch. Everything is liars, hate and agression. You need to mellow! Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
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Jeff stated:=20
-- I think its been a tremendous waste of time, but Donal keeps reviving = it. Takes two to tango....leave him alone on the dancefloor if you don't = like the music. katysails s/v Chanteuse Kirie Elite 32 http://katysails.tripod.com "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein |
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"Donal" wrote in message ...
Recently, there have been all sorts of arguments about the CollRegs. It seems to me that everybody seems to place their own personal interpretation on the CollRegs. Sailors tend to think that "power driven" vessels should give way to them at all times. Maybe a liar sailor like you thinks this. Ever hear of a pecking order? Powerboaters seem to think that sailors must keep out of their way in any sort of "lane". In your yachtmaster dreams maybe Recently, I noticed that kitesurfers think that everybody should give way to them because they are "Smaller". Your smaller Why can people not take the CollRegs at face value? Joe says that he is exempt from the CollRegs because small boats should not be there. LIAR! show me were I said that you dufass redneck. I never said anything close to that you yachtmaster ****** wanna be. Jeff says that Joe is correct, but that Joe is also wrong. Are the CollRegs supreme, or can we all place our own interpretation on them? Your an idiot lanod. Weekend warrior that will never get a grasp on the colregs. Your a blind navigator sent below.... not worthy of any other input. Joe MSV RedCloud Regards Donal -- |
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OzOne wrote in message ... Donal, no matter what the regs say, IF you collide with anything you are always partially responsible. That is my understanding. The rules *do* say that you should avoid a collision at all costs. Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be necessary to ensure your safety. Yup! That is what I was taught. However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to sail". regards Donal -- |
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OzOne wrote in message ... On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:53:23 -0000, "Donal" scribbled thusly: OzOne wrote in message ... Donal, no matter what the regs say, IF you collide with anything you are always partially responsible. That is my understanding. The rules *do* say that you should avoid a collision at all costs. Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be necessary to ensure your safety. Yup! That is what I was taught. However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to sail". Yeah, but hey, that's America, Do you still want those files that I promised you? I've now found the files. Regards Donal -- |
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Donal wrote:
That is my understanding. The rules *do* say that you should avoid a collision at all costs. As opposed to what, saying something like "Yeah, go ahead run over this guy, he's a moron anyway." Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be necessary to ensure your safety. Yup! That is what I was taught. However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to sail". Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable. For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business going into a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think it's OK to run one down should he be there. And you? DSK |
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"DSK" wrote in message ... Donal wrote: That is my understanding. The rules *do* say that you should avoid a collision at all costs. As opposed to what, saying something like "Yeah, go ahead run over this guy, he's a moron anyway." Huh? Why the sarcasm? Know the regs, use them to make sure that any vessel in your proximity can be fairly certain of what they can expect from you THEN be prepared to throw the book overboard and take whatever action may be necessary to ensure your safety. Yup! That is what I was taught. However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to sail". Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable. ... But they should not be interpreted as binding under all circumstances. For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business going into a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think it's OK to run one down should he be there. And you? We are almost in total agreement. It would be foolhardy, bordering on suicidal, for a kayak to enter a TSS in thick fog. However, the shipping lanes that I cross are about 5 miles wide, with a about 5 miles between the lanes. It would be very easy to get caught between the lanes in a sudden fog. It would also be easy to get caught just outside the "inshore" passages in the solent. I've been caught twice. It was very unnerving, and led to me getting a Radar. Regards Donal -- |
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Donal wrote:
Huh? Why the sarcasm? Oh, just the usual ;) However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to sail". Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable. .. But they should not be interpreted as binding under all circumstances. For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business going into a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think it's OK to run one down should he be there. And you? We are almost in total agreement. It would be foolhardy, bordering on suicidal, for a kayak to enter a TSS in thick fog. Agreed. But in a recent thread, you (and some other people that took a slightly more extreme stand) insisted that I (along with some other people) had stated things that we had not, in fact, said. It got rather contentious for a while. However, the shipping lanes that I cross are about 5 miles wide, with a about 5 miles between the lanes. It would be very easy to get caught between the lanes in a sudden fog. Yes, and the great thing about ColRegs is that they provide the best guide for how to behave in these circumstances. It would also be easy to get caught just outside the "inshore" passages in the solent. I've been caught twice. It was very unnerving, and led to me getting a Radar. Our tugboat has a pretty good set, I am learning to use it. At first I did not know how to tune it for a decent return, and had doubts about it's usefulness as a tool. On our last trip I had the time & some coaching to learn how to get a better picture, and I now believe that radar can be quite a useful small boat tool... given the skill to make use of it... Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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"DSK" wrote in message ... Donal wrote: Huh? Why the sarcasm? Oh, just the usual ;) However, people tend to interpret the rules to suit themselves. We hear comments like "a kayak has no business in a TSS", or " power gives way to sail". Yes. You hear those things because they are often applicable. .. But they should not be interpreted as binding under all circumstances. For example, while I definitely believe that a kayak has no business going into a shipping lane in fog, that absolutely does not mean that I think it's OK to run one down should he be there. And you? We are almost in total agreement. It would be foolhardy, bordering on suicidal, for a kayak to enter a TSS in thick fog. Agreed. But in a recent thread, you (and some other people that took a slightly more extreme stand) insisted that I (along with some other people) had stated things that we had not, in fact, said. It got rather contentious for a while. My contention was simply that a kayak could reasonably be expected to be in a TSS. Therefore, I feel that the ships in a TSS should not ignore the CollRegs because a "kayak has no right to be there". The CollRegs apply equally to everybody. In thick fog, it is not practical for everybody to observe the letter of the law. Ships will go faster than they should, and kayaks may cross the path of large vessels. The CollRegs cater for both, if you don't read them with a preconception. The language in the CollRegs is full of stuff like "appropriate for the conditions" etc. So, yes, the CollRegs imply that a kayak should not cross a TSS in thick fog, and they also say that ships will travel at a speed that allows the ship to stop in the distance that a lookout ("ny sight") can see. However, the shipping lanes that I cross are about 5 miles wide, with a about 5 miles between the lanes. It would be very easy to get caught between the lanes in a sudden fog. Yes, and the great thing about ColRegs is that they provide the best guide for how to behave in these circumstances. What do you think the poor guy in the kayak should do? It would also be easy to get caught just outside the "inshore" passages in the solent. I've been caught twice. It was very unnerving, and led to me getting a Radar. Our tugboat has a pretty good set, I am learning to use it. At first I did not know how to tune it for a decent return, and had doubts about it's usefulness as a tool. On our last trip I had the time & some coaching to learn how to get a better picture, and I now believe that radar can be quite a useful small boat tool... given the skill to make use of it... The advice that I was given was "play with it". By playing with it, I've learned that modern sets are really quite good when set to "auto". Regards Donal -- |
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Donal wrote:
My contention was simply that a kayak could reasonably be expected to be in a TSS. Therefore, I feel that the ships in a TSS should not ignore the CollRegs because a "kayak has no right to be there". The CollRegs apply equally to everybody. And AFAIK not a single poster said that the ColRegs should not apply fully (and that means equally, doesn't it?) to all vessels including kayaks; nor did anybody imply (that I read) that ships should ignore them no matter what rights kayakers have or don't have. So, what was the argument about? In thick fog, it is not practical for everybody to observe the letter of the law. Shucks, it's not practical hardly any time. Try going the speed limit on a US freeway. Ships will go faster than they should, and kayaks may cross the path of large vessels. The CollRegs cater for both, if you don't read them with a preconception. IMHO the preconception was yours and Ricks, that everybody else was wrong ;) The language in the CollRegs is full of stuff like "appropriate for the conditions" etc. So, yes, the CollRegs imply that a kayak should not cross a TSS in thick fog, and they also say that ships will travel at a speed that allows the ship to stop in the distance that a lookout ("ny sight") can see. Yep. You never know when a kayaker, or for that matter an iceberg, might be lurking ahead. However, as Peter and Otnmbrd and probably somebody else pointed out, some times ships have practical constraints on them just as kayakers do. What do you think the poor guy in the kayak should do? Do the best he can at avoiding ship traffic by as wide a margin as possible. ... radar... The advice that I was given was "play with it". By playing with it, I've learned that modern sets are really quite good when set to "auto". 'Play with it' doesn't sound like particularly useful advice. Our set does not have an auto tune feature, I guess it's not modern enough. But the first step is to read the manual to see what the timing & coarse tune procedure is. The second step is to get the boat to a location where you have some good radar tarets at easily fixable relative bearings & ranges, and then use the fine tune to get the best return picture at that range. This means getting a half mile away or more from docks, buildings, masses of other boats, etc etc; so it can't possibly be done (IMHO) in a slip. The step I am working on now is to work out how the tuning has to change for different range settings & atmospheric conditions. On our last trip, I was seing small daysailers at 8 or 9 miles and marshy coastline at 10 miles, and getting a better return picture each time I worked at it. I also saw a difference between adjusting to "see" rain or buildings on shore in the rain squall. This was far far better than it would do when adjusted in confined waters... although at one point, a mentor was showing me his ideas on tuning the set, and we were tied up alongside in a canal... and he could get the set to show the canal banks clearly for about two miles and some distance around the next bend. When we got back fromt his cruise, with about a weeks practice under my belt, our radar would show a floating soda can on still water at about 3/4 miles. Didn't get a chance to try any kayaks though. Very spiffy little toy. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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"DSK" wrote in message ... Donal wrote: My contention was simply that a kayak could reasonably be expected to be in a TSS. Therefore, I feel that the ships in a TSS should not ignore the CollRegs because a "kayak has no right to be there". The CollRegs apply equally to everybody. And AFAIK not a single poster said that the ColRegs should not apply fully (and that means equally, doesn't it?) to all vessels including kayaks; Do you agree with Joe's opinion that "sight" means his Radar set, and that "hearing" means the VHF? nor did anybody imply (that I read) that ships should ignore them no matter what rights kayakers have or don't have. So, what was the argument about? Two things. 1) People placing their own interpretation onto the rules and being selective in their application. 2) Whether the rules state that you must keep a "manual" lookout. In thick fog, it is not practical for everybody to observe the letter of the law. Shucks, it's not practical hardly any time. Try going the speed limit on a US freeway. You're absolutely correct. Ships will go faster than they should, and kayaks may cross the path of large vessels. The CollRegs cater for both, if you don't read them with a preconception. IMHO the preconception was yours and Ricks, that everybody else was wrong ;) You were! The language in the CollRegs is full of stuff like "appropriate for the conditions" etc. So, yes, the CollRegs imply that a kayak should not cross a TSS in thick fog, and they also say that ships will travel at a speed that allows the ship to stop in the distance that a lookout ("ny sight") can see. Yep. You never know when a kayaker, or for that matter an iceberg, might be lurking ahead. However, as Peter and Otnmbrd and probably somebody else pointed out, some times ships have practical constraints on them just as kayakers do. I know this. Did you not see where said that I wouldn't expect Peter to worry about kayaks? What do you think the poor guy in the kayak should do? Do the best he can at avoiding ship traffic by as wide a margin as possible. Absolutely correct. ... radar... The advice that I was given was "play with it". By playing with it, I've learned that modern sets are really quite good when set to "auto". 'Play with it' doesn't sound like particularly useful advice. Our set does not have an auto tune feature, I guess it's not modern enough. But the first step is to read the manual to see what the timing & coarse tune procedure is. The second step is to get the boat to a location where you have some good radar tarets at easily fixable relative bearings & ranges, and then use the fine tune to get the best return picture at that range. This means getting a half mile away or more from docks, buildings, masses of other boats, etc etc; so it can't possibly be done (IMHO) in a slip. The step I am working on now is to work out how the tuning has to change for different range settings & atmospheric conditions. On our last trip, I was seing small daysailers at 8 or 9 miles and marshy coastline at 10 miles, and getting a better return picture each time I worked at it. I also saw a difference between adjusting to "see" rain or buildings on shore in the rain squall. This was far far better than it would do when adjusted in confined waters... although at one point, a mentor was showing me his ideas on tuning the set, and we were tied up alongside in a canal... and he could get the set to show the canal banks clearly for about two miles and some distance around the next bend. When we got back fromt his cruise, with about a weeks practice under my belt, our radar would show a floating soda can on still water at about 3/4 miles. Didn't get a chance to try any kayaks though. That is a partial description of "play with it". You need to do all of the above in various states of sea also. Regards Donal -- |
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