otnmbrd wrote in message ink.net...
Donal wrote:
"otnmbrd" wrote in message


.... and as you say, "passage planning" is an area that many people do
not make enough use of, and an area that can save a good deal of grief
if properly employed.


Before taking the family on cross-channel trips, I always make sure that my
wife and eldest son do a passage plan. That way, if anything happens to me
they should be able to carry on.

I've also taught my kids that using the GPS means a longer crossing, even
when you allow for the *predicted* tide. The tides are rarely exactly as
predicted. This doesn't matter much on a 12-14 hour crossing, because if
the tide goes faster one way, then it will also go faster the other way. So
we usually stick to our course. Big errors usually correct themselves when
the tide turns.

One of the "problems" with using GPS exclusively for navigation, is that
often we either forget or never learn some of the "old" tricks that were
used, prior to GPS.
For instance, there are many routes that people take, where they knew
the effects of current and didn't bother with course change that the GPS
may show as needed to make point "B" from point "A". Prior to GPS, you'd
set one course and never change it (on these routes) and no matter how
far you wandered off the base course line, you left the course alone,
because when you got to point "B", you'd have wandered back to where you
wanted to be.


13 years ago, there was far less electronics on boats. There wasn't

even

GPS.

I think it's been a bit longer than that....course, the time element of
change from "sat nav" to "gps" is kinda blurry ... sat nav being in the
early 80's


The only nav systems that I saw on boats was Decca. Maybe GPS sets were too
expensive???

Until GPS, SAT NAV sets tended to be expensive, required (initially)
knowing antenna height, and only gave positions when they had satellites
aligned (visible) so they may not give you positions as and when you
really needed them, which meant you best be using other methods also.



Hmmm, who's trolling? Joe claims that doing 25 knots in fog under

radar

alone is safe. He refuses to believe that you can use tide tables and a
chart to plan a course that you can actually use without much further
assistance. Now you expect me to remember all the precise details of
something that I studied 13 years ago!

G I think you misread/understood what Joe was saying (at least, I read
his statement differently) No one runs the type of boat he was talking
about, in fog, at those speeds, under radar "alone".


Did you read the thread? He seemed pretty clear on the subject, and
defended his position quite vigourously.

Been following it all along. We are obviously interpreting it differently.



The route is well known, local knowledge is extensive, tides and
currents are well known and specific, as are traffic patterns,
densities, etc., and a lookout is normal (lookout may not be on the bow
as this could be dangerous, but there will be one, though I recognize
"idiots" exist in all quarters).


Joe was adamant that he used radar, and didn't need any other form of
lookout.

I read he was using radar as his most immediate and important source of
traffic and navigation information, not his only source. If he didn't
have a second pair of eyes from among the crew, also watching from some
position, then shame on him.



We always in a channel had another person on lookout, but keep in
mind he also had the duty of engineroom walkthrus. If you have ever
ran the mississippi this time of the year you would know what Im
talking about. You can have your deckhands face buried into another
radar, that the only way he is going to help lookout. To be looking
out the windows was a waste of time, the fog is that thick, your lucky
if you can see your bow. Donal is insane if he thinks it will help to
put a man on the bow of a crewboat doing 20 knots, I wouldent even
suggest that on a clear day in a channel, just incase you run aground
or hit a submerged object. At 20+ knts your not going to hear much
besides your own boat.

And if he's yelling at something he see's it to late to do much about
it.

The fact is Donal hasent a clue what a professional mariner can
accomplish with the proper tools. He thinks it best to put a person on
the bow because he does on a quiet sailboat doing 2 knots. Thats safe
to him because it will help him. On a crewboat your risking your crews
life doing something so stupid. 100 tons of aluminum going 20 knots
with a 180 pound kid on the bow...........in the fog...........

Id rather have him strapped in the wheelhouse learning how to use a
curser and ID targets.

Donal can not understand how someone could navigate a river or
channel at 20 + knot safely with radars as your only eyes. Donal has
no real pratical skills using a radar, or pratical skills at radar
plotting.

Rivers and canals are the best place to do this. With flat water you
can tune a radar to see the wake off a canoe. The outline of the banks
can be as familiar as seeing it in the day. Tanks on the banks,
Hunting shacks, channel markers, islands, bouys, docks, tree clumps,
logs and even seagrass clumps can be tuned in to a crystal clear
picture if you know what your looking at, and know how to use the
tool.

Would he argue so strongly if I said the wheelhouse was equiped with
FLIR?

He's just a baby step above a weekend warrior.

Joe
MSV RedCloud




Now, as to your memory ..... of course I expect you to remember those
details .... just don't expect me to remember the details of my "radar
recertification" I did @6 mos ago.



I've come to the conclusion that you remember the things that are of
practical use. For example, I have forgotton almost all of the morse code.

still remember that

I've also forgotton what most identification lights mean. If they have
anything unusual, then I give way.

G good reason to always have the "Rules" book handy. I try to read it
cover to cover every 6 mos, and frequently thumb through the "lights"
section at other times, especially if I've been caught short on making
an identity, while underway.

To be honest, getting into these discussions, has and is an excellent
way to maintain "Rules" currency.
Were you aware, that the latest change to rule 8(a), was mainly an
attempt to emphasis the rule regarding changing course to port to avoid
a collision? BG Just thought I'd throw that in there.

otn


Regards


Donal
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