"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
Martin Baxter wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:

"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Joe you seem to be rather thick, you must take this post in the context
of the
others that preceded it.

Yeh right show me this content.

If you do so you will be aware that there is in fact
"external" input;

Thats not what his post said thicker thick thickest, he said no imup
exterinal imput.

The examiner is going to tell you your starting position,

Yes external imput # 1

Poor, Joe! Poor, poor Joe.

As you are in a Yachtmaster exam, you will already know your position.
With the pilot house windows blacked out the only way your going to
know your position is someone tells you. Understand? Thats external
imput, comprende?


You certainly do not need to be told your position at the start of the blind
test, as at that point you were not navigating blindly.

Oh OK, that makes sence. When I learned to navigate we needed to know
were we were, that was some of the basic stuff.




compass
heading

External imput #2

Poor, Joe! Poor, poor Joe.

I'm almost beginning to feel sorry for you.

You do not ask the crew for the compass reading. As the navigator you
*tell* the crew what the compass heading should be.

But you have to look at the compass to tell what your course is,
therefore the compass is giving you imput, can you understand this
farout concept?

It quite simple, isn't it? ... .... well, OK, you'll just have to take my
word. It *is* simple. Honestly.

Simple imput a CC






and any course changes,

External imput #3

If I am navigator, then I direct the course changes.

Not if you move blind into a strong current, the current might set
your course and drift, without external imput from your compass you
will not be able to accurately tell your deviation from orignal
heading, if you are blind that is.



...... go on Joe, you really want to mention "meeting" or "crossing"
situations, don't you?

Yeah and being blind without external imput meeting situation are
going to be very risky huh?





most likely you will also get the boat speed through
the water.

well thats more external imput isnt it?


EXTERNAL imput #4
You have to plot your course accounting for set,

A competent navigator will have used his tide tables before he sets out on
his trip. In fact, I mentioned this a couple of years ago. I always insist
that my wife and my sons do independent passage plans before a long passage
so that they will really *know* where we are if something happens to me.



Tide tables?

Yes! Navigators use them when their GPS sets break down.


They do! Wow your smart.



EXTERNAL #5

leeway (you are going to
have to know your boats characteristics

for this based on angle of heel, something you
can sense in the cabin and therefore another input),

Ill say that internal and OK with what the yachtmaster wannabe claims.
After all you can sence that in a pilot house with the windows blacked
as stated.

drift...., you will have a watch and tide
tables.

Yelp EXTERNAL IMPUT #5


To accomplish this with some accuracy is not that difficult, I'm not
sure
why you seem to be so astounded by such an ability.


Damn..... With 5 external imputs that as easy as tieing your shoe. I
thought these yachtmasters knew something special and astonishing.

I other works Lanod was talking out his arse and did not have a clue
what he was saying. Is that what you are saying ?

Joe, by this stage you should be beginning to realise that I can make more
sense while talking out of my arse than you can by utilising all the
intellectual abilities that you have at your disposal. [good insult, huh?]

About as good as your description of blind navigation with no imput at
all, you know the "Waves slapping on the hull" line you spewed. Your
yachtmaster exam sounds like what a basic OS or AB would sit for.
Basic Basic Basic. Your the only one that thinks it is , difficult,
mysterious, and a great feat of navigation.

If you lived in the early 1800's you be yelling at the skipper STOP
STOP before we fall off the edge of the world.

Joe
MSV RedCloud





Regards


Donal
--

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...

snip

You certainly do not need to be told your position at the start of the
blind
test, as at that point you were not navigating blindly.

Oh OK, that makes sence. When I learned to navigate we needed to know
were we were, that was some of the basic stuff.

Exactly.
You do not ask the crew for the compass reading. As the navigator you
*tell* the crew what the compass heading should be.

But you have to look at the compass to tell what your course is,
therefore the compass is giving you imput, can you understand this
farout concept?


No, you tell the crew what course to steer. As John E has pointed out, they
may tell you if they cannot steer to your course, and tell you what course
they can make. I didn't remember the rules on the last bit, but it makes
sense.


If I am navigator, then I direct the course changes.

Not if you move blind into a strong current, the current might set
your course and drift, without external imput from your compass you
will not be able to accurately tell your deviation from orignal
heading, if you are blind that is.

I don't follow you. A strong current at sea shouldn't change the compass
heading??? It may change your course, but then again, the test is meant to
show if you are aware of the currents.

The only way that the compass reading could be affected by currents is if
the boat was being steered by the GPS.





...... go on Joe, you really want to mention "meeting" or "crossing"
situations, don't you?

Yeah and being blind without external imput meeting situation are
going to be very risky huh?


No, the crew, including the examiner won't crash the boat!




A competent navigator will have used his tide tables before he sets out
on
his trip. In fact, I mentioned this a couple of years ago. I always
insist
that my wife and my sons do independent passage plans before a long
passage
so that they will really *know* where we are if something happens to me.



Tide tables?

Yes! Navigators use them when their GPS sets break down.


They do! Wow your smart.

Why did you ask?


About as good as your description of blind navigation with no imput at
all, you know the "Waves slapping on the hull" line you spewed. Your
yachtmaster exam sounds like what a basic OS or AB would sit for.
Basic Basic Basic. Your the only one that thinks it is , difficult,
mysterious, and a great feat of navigation.

I don't think any such thing at all. I see it as a recreational boater's
qualification. AFAIK, you cannot use it to get many professional jobs.




Regards


Donal
--

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

Joe, you obviously think that I would mislead you. Let me take this
opportunity to reassure you that I would never give you false information.

Take a look at any of these links, and search for "blind navigation".

http://www.southern.co.uk/courses.htm

http://www.capitalsailing.com/pc_ym.html

http://www.hamble.co.uk/yashtmaster_prep_motor.htm


By the way, there is a web site called www.googol.com which you can use to
find out things for yourself.


No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe, read the thread that you copied that text from. Try about two posts
down.

Maybe you need to go on an RYA course, where they will open your eyes to the
science of blind navigation.

Regards


Donal
--

This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Thanks John. I'd call that a GOOD test of basic piloting skills ...
one with plenty of room to screw up, but with all the info you should
need, to complete.

otn

John.E wrote:
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

Thanks for the description - that makes a lot of sense. By comparison, the test
in the US for 6-pack or 100 ton Master's includes similar chartwork, but
performed in the classroom, without a serious time limit. (And, of course, it
assumes powerboats.) For someone experienced, its much easier than being on
board, but it can be more difficult for some people, because the chart used may
be completely unfamiliar and dis-orienting. (Not that its supposed to be easy
....)

The way you say "without the use of any electronic device" makes it sound like
its a test of ancient and arcane arts. In reality, its the way most of us
sailed up until about 10 year ago.

-jeff

"John.E" wrote in message
...
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

Hi Jeff,

"without the use of any electronic device" is the way I (and many of my
classic owning friends) still sail today as my little cruiser (195x
Hillyard) only has an electronic echo sounder (no power feed from the 195x
Stuart 2 stroke and only a 22watt solar panel for a trickle charge on the
lighting circuit), pitching the lead when single handed and closing on a lee
shore in fog is a real bummer (I have got a lead & line in the locker
though) ;-))

The whole tilt on the YachtMaster Offshore and Ocean is the practical aspect
and the ability to deliver on the water, not just in the confines of the
classroom. The YM does have a theory component but to get you ticket you
have to perform on the day on the water (as well as having the minimum time
aboard day and night and the miles logged), in my case the middle of
November, English winter, -17 chill factor and a 30Kt wind blowing. Fun?
Not!

JohnE

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the description - that makes a lot of sense. By comparison,
the test
in the US for 6-pack or 100 ton Master's includes similar chartwork, but
performed in the classroom, without a serious time limit. (And, of
course, it
assumes powerboats.) For someone experienced, its much easier than being
on
board, but it can be more difficult for some people, because the chart
used may
be completely unfamiliar and dis-orienting. (Not that its supposed to be
easy
...)

The way you say "without the use of any electronic device" makes it sound
like
its a test of ancient and arcane arts. In reality, its the way most of us
sailed up until about 10 year ago.

-jeff

"John.E" wrote in message
...
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and
I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of
water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could
not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie
things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

John.E wrote:

Hi Jeff,

"without the use of any electronic device" is the way I (and many of my
classic owning friends) still sail today as my little cruiser (195x
Hillyard) only has an electronic echo sounder (no power feed from the 195x
Stuart 2 stroke and only a 22watt solar panel for a trickle charge on the
lighting circuit), pitching the lead when single handed and closing on a lee
shore in fog is a real bummer (I have got a lead & line in the locker
though) ;-))

The whole tilt on the YachtMaster Offshore and Ocean is the practical aspect
and the ability to deliver on the water, not just in the confines of the
classroom. The YM does have a theory component but to get you ticket you
have to perform on the day on the water (as well as having the minimum time
aboard day and night and the miles logged), in my case the middle of
November, English winter, -17 chill factor and a 30Kt wind blowing. Fun?
Not!

Not only that, what about the case in Heavy Weather sailing where a
whole YM
examination class set sail into a full gale!

Cheers MC

"John.E" wrote in message m...
This was applied in my exam... (sailing not motoring)

I got about two minutes to fix my position from a 3point/running fix and I
was sent then below decks (with curtains closed and no outside view)...
Once below I was then supplied with my target...
(a bouy about 6-7 Nm away along the Solent, a very busy stretch of water
full of commercial and pleasure traffic)
I was allowed the following info...
crew were permitted to supply shape of any bouy passed within
5-10mtrs... (not colour or markings)
crew could supply compass heading if course requested heading could not
be achieved... (under sail, no motors)
crew could supply speed through water from log reading... (no VMG or
other compute details)
crew could supply current depth from echo sounder... (I assume the a
leadline is concidered to be aboard)
charts of given exam area and tidal atlas...
The examiner would also feed me various sound signals just to spcie things
up!

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

Thanks John,

Excellent description.

With so many clues and imputs it seems to be fairly basic. With the
shapes of bouys who needs to know the color, and with the spacing
being far enough apart its real easy to reckon. With sound signals and
depth reading you should be able to stay in a channel and know exactly
were you are, or know when your getting out of it, and perhaps plot
your progress thru any area that has a bottom that varies in depth.
All this information that can be combined on any detailed chart for a
fairly accurate fix.

One mistake., You said all the information must be gleened without the
use of any electronic aids. And unless your using a lead line you were
cheating.

Joe
MSV RedCloud



"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"One of the tests involves sitting at the chart table, with the ports
blacked
out, and predicting your position to within a few metres.

In other words, you have to sail (and navigate) the boat "blind".

No external imput at all.

How can this be done?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

"Joe" wrote in message
om...

There you have it, the only info available was information that could be
gleaned without the use of any electronic device and no engines used.

JohnE

One mistake., You said all the information must be gleened without the
use of any electronic aids. And unless your using a lead line you were
cheating.


I noticed that, but he actually said "could be gleaned" without electronics.
The modern depth sounder actually give less info than the traditional lead line,
especially to someone very familiar with the area. Even the old "spinning neon
tube" sounders gave a lot of useful info. The "tridata" style sounder is
worthless compared to a basic fishfinder.