OzOne wrote:


Joe, I've been near run down by ships too many times at night to
believe that they can effectively _see_ a yacht.
Steaming on at 25kts in poor visibility is just plain dangerous!

EG Oz, I've been nearly hit by small boats too many times at night to
believe they can effectively see a ship.
Steaming on at 25k in poor visibility is just plain dangerous for many,
at any time, less so, and much less so, for others at various times
under various conditions.

otn

OzOne wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 02:42:10 GMT, otnmbrd
scribbled thusly:


Most "radar assisted collisions" occur because someone didn't plot the
target. Using the EBL/cursor and range rings or VRM, is not plotting.
Problem is, few recreational boaters have the ability to plot, many
"work boats" don't either ....no excuse for ships.

otn


But they have to be able to _see_ the other boat.
Fiberglass boats are notoriously difficult returns even with
reflectors.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Says who? I don't necessarily agree that the "fiberglass" boat is the
main culprit. When I've normally been apt to miss a fiberglass boat, it
was due to sea conditions, the range scale I was concentrating on, sea
return, rain .... in other words a combination of problems/conditions,
not just the construction.
I've also seen conditions, not only on ships, but, probably more so on
smaller boats, where a pure fiberglass boat, was visible on all ranges
at good distances.
Never expect to be seen ....be happy when you are.

otn

"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message news:bu9tfb$ese$1$

The CollRegs *do* advocate a constant visual lookout. Joe thinks it is a
waste of time.

Your the spin doctor again Donal.

Visual can be with radar. Infact you can view much more in think fog
using radar. I never ever said a lookout was a waste of time.


Joe, I apologise for the confusion that I caused by using the term visual

The CollRegs state :-
"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out, by sight and

I look at a radar- therfore Im using my sight- and much more effectly
for the prevailing circumstances.

Hearing..... We all listen to the radio and check traffic everywhere.
We talk and make everyone with a radio aware.

We say something like "MV Comet in-bound Freeport jetties, turning
westbound in the ICW checking for any concerned traffic" And we listen
and respone to any concerned traffic, we id each other on radar and we
make passing agreements, in a narrow river we would slow to the
slowest we could matian steerage and pass. We use our hearing. We do
it on the proper channels, and a few improper ones that weekend
warriors might feel approate. This is more effective for the
prevailing circumstances of 3 12-71TI engines, making at idle enough
noise to drown out any other noise. At full speed in a fog bank on
deck you would want hearing protection.


hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing
circumstances and conditions

Like radar, flir,night vision, radio, gps, charts, local knowledge
ect..


so as to make a full appraisal of the situation
and of the risk of collision. "


I can make a full appraisal of the situation with the proper tools and
knowledge. And the risk of collision.



When the rule uses the word "sight", I believe that they mean that someone
should look with their own eyes.

Everything you see is with your eyes.



The "hearing" bit means that someone should use their ears..... and I don't
mean the VHF.

Thats your onshore yachtmaster experience kicking in. You use all
tools you have available. If standing on the bow with your hand
cupping your ears will not help anything, than it is not part of the
"all available means" toolbag.


The phrase "all available means" includes your Radar set.


Please tell me why you think a radar is not an effective tool?

Oooh nooo. Not again!! I'm being asked to prove something else that I
didn't claim.

Radar is an extremely effective tool. I use it myself - especially in fog.

Is it because you can not even tune your wal-mart special?

I only need it to detect big ships.

A proper radar will detect just about everything, not just big ships
to run away from. This again is showing your onshore yachtmaster
skills.

Any walmart radar should pick up every bouy, channel marker, banks,
boats
platforms ect. If your does not, toss it overboard, it's junk.



I don't have any need for an expensive
set. I'm not charging arount at 25 kts in visibility that is so bad that a
lookout would be pointless.

There you go again spindocter. Show were I ever said a lookout would
be pointless.

To have someone staring into a thick cloud seeing nothing is
pointless.
And on the bow of some boats can be dangerious. Again your onshore
yachtmaster experience has your ability to understand stifled.


I'm doing about 6 kts.

Hitting something at 6kts is not going to be fun.




Lanod, Your the one with the limited abilty to comprehend. Perhaps
when you rise above your current status as an on-shore yachtmaster you
will broden your understanding of things nautical.

Joe
MSV RedCloud

OzOne wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 03:36:56 GMT, otnmbrd
scribbled thusly:



Says who?


Says me!

G Which does not necessarily make it an absolute.


I don't necessarily agree that the "fiberglass" boat is the
main culprit. When I've normally been apt to miss a fiberglass boat, it
was due to sea conditions, the range scale I was concentrating on, sea
return, rain .... in other words a combination of problems/conditions,
not just the construction.


Yep, making steaming on at 25kts dangerous in poor viz

From your perspective I don't doubt you believe this. From mine, it
depends on conditions and equipment.
Where I am, I have no problem picking up all sizes and construction
types in most conditions where fog is present ..... this includes jet
skies (sp?) and kayaks.


I've also seen conditions, not only on ships, but, probably more so on
smaller boats, where a pure fiberglass boat, was visible on all ranges
at good distances.


Uh huh, relatively calm and flat.

Not always


Never expect to be seen ....be happy when you are.


Yep, survival requires that you treat all ships as being a threat.
I've gybed to make sure I would stay out of harms way only to find the
ship changing course to place us directly in their path.
They had very obviously not seen us in light rain at night.

G Survival of license requires that you treat all recreational boaters
as being a threat. I've made turns to avoid some sailboat, only to have
it gybe and try to cut back across my bow .... at least there's no way
they could say they hadn't seen this 90,000 ton 900' long tanker coming
their way.

otn

OzOne wrote:


True, but still worth considering.

All things are worth considering ....after consideration, some are
discarded some are not.


I don't necessarily agree that the "fiberglass" boat is the
main culprit. When I've normally been apt to miss a fiberglass boat, it
was due to sea conditions, the range scale I was concentrating on, sea
return, rain .... in other words a combination of problems/conditions,
not just the construction.


Yep, making steaming on at 25kts dangerous in poor viz

From your perspective I don't doubt you believe this. From mine, it
depends on conditions and equipment.
Where I am, I have no problem picking up all sizes and construction
types in most conditions where fog is present ..... this includes jet
skies (sp?) and kayaks.


In most conditions.
How do you know if you haven't picked up that kayak? Can you hear the
screams over the engine noise?

That could apply to any day or night, good visibility or bad .....
wouldn't have a clue that he'd been there.


I've also seen conditions, not only on ships, but, probably more so on
smaller boats, where a pure fiberglass boat, was visible on all ranges
at good distances.


Uh huh, relatively calm and flat.

Not always


But usually

no, not necessarily. There are many conditions and very few absolutes.


Never expect to be seen ....be happy when you are.


Yep, survival requires that you treat all ships as being a threat.
I've gybed to make sure I would stay out of harms way only to find the
ship changing course to place us directly in their path.
They had very obviously not seen us in light rain at night.


G Survival of license requires that you treat all recreational boaters
as being a threat. I've made turns to avoid some sailboat, only to have
it gybe and try to cut back across my bow .... at least there's no way
they could say they hadn't seen this 90,000 ton 900' long tanker coming
their way.


True, There are many who cannot read a collision course.
The freighter that changed course toward us did so quite a few minutes
after we had gybed,

I can't comment as I don't know enough of the particulars of what you
and the ship were doing.

I treat all ships with a great deal of respect mainly because I do
believe the stories of unmanned or sleeping watches
AND have lost friends without trace when there was no weather in the
area.

I believe few if any of those stories, but consider it a possibility on
rare occasions .... as to your lost friends, there can be many
possibilities ... getting run over by a ship is one of them, but in most
cases I'd be inclined to an alert watch that never saw them. I've had
too many near misses at sea to not believe otherwise.

otn

OzOne wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 04:28:27 GMT, otnmbrd
scribbled thusly:



OzOne wrote:


True, but still worth considering.

All things are worth considering ....after consideration, some are
discarded some are not.

And the idea that fiberglass boats are not easily seen with radar is
not one to be discarded

Of course not, but their construction may have nothing to do with the
fact that they weren't seen. Fiberglass construction is not a catch all
for poor radar visibility, just as steel in not a catch all for good
radar visibility. Once again, there are many variables involved, be it a
small boat or a big ship, with radar. My point is .... no matter what
you are, what your construction, don't expect to be seen, and this is
especially true for small boats in open sea conditions and involves many
factors.

snipped a bunch of items, intended to bolster your position
I look at items such as these as examples of possible problems, not
absolutes ... you remember these things, and work around them, apply
them to your conditions, find them in error at times, find them true at
other times, etc.


In most conditions.
How do you know if you haven't picked up that kayak? Can you hear the
screams over the engine noise?

That could apply to any day or night, good visibility or bad .....
wouldn't have a clue that he'd been there.


Ahh sarcasm :-)

Not at all .... reality.


I've also seen conditions, not only on ships, but, probably more so on
smaller boats, where a pure fiberglass boat, was visible on all ranges
at good distances.


Uh huh, relatively calm and flat.

Not always


But usually

no, not necessarily. There are many conditions and very few absolutes.


So there are conditions where you wouldn't notice a small boat or
yacht!

Of course ..... in good visibility, bad visibility, day or night.



G Survival of license requires that you treat all recreational boaters
as being a threat. I've made turns to avoid some sailboat, only to have
it gybe and try to cut back across my bow .... at least there's no way
they could say they hadn't seen this 90,000 ton 900' long tanker coming
their way.


True, There are many who cannot read a collision course.
The freighter that changed course toward us did so quite a few minutes
after we had gybed,

I can't comment as I don't know enough of the particulars of what you
and the ship were doing.


Fair enough, but I can assure you that if we were visible on his radar
or by the watch, he, in open waters, paid absolutely no heed to our
alteration of course to avoid him and instead altered course forcing
us to then make an urgent alteration back onto our original course to
avoid coming waay to close for comfort.

Why did he change course? (can think of any number of possibilities)

I treat all ships with a great deal of respect mainly because I do
believe the stories of unmanned or sleeping watches
AND have lost friends without trace when there was no weather in the
area.

I believe few if any of those stories, but consider it a possibility on
rare occasions .... as to your lost friends, there can be many
possibilities ... getting run over by a ship is one of them, but in most
cases I'd be inclined to an alert watch that never saw them. I've had
too many near misses at sea to not believe otherwise.


Yep, the belief of most of those investigating their loss.
Checks were made on the ships believed to be in the area between their
last sked and the time the alarm was raised to see if there were any
signs of a collision. I don't recall anything being found.

There are a number of cases where this has worked out. I would guess
that in most cases, those on the ship did not have a clue, but
naturally, there will be those cases where this is not true. ... the old
story of the ship coming into port where the Mate went forward to
prepare the anchor for letting go. When he looked over the bow, he found
the mast sail and rigging of a small boat, snagged in the anchor ....
end of story, so to speak.

otn

OzOne wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 05:44:53 GMT, otnmbrd
scribbled thusly:



And the idea that fiberglass boats are not easily seen with radar is
not one to be discarded

Of course not, but their construction may have nothing to do with the
fact that they weren't seen. Fiberglass construction is not a catch all
for poor radar visibility, just as steel in not a catch all for good
radar visibility.


True, but being in a fiberglass boat will make you less visible

To whom, under what conditions? A small boat with a low output radar, or
a ship with 25KW radar? Calm conditions or rough conditions? On what
relative heading?


snipped a bunch of items, intended to bolster your position
I look at items such as these as examples of possible problems, not
absolutes ... you remember these things, and work around them, apply
them to your conditions, find them in error at times, find them true at
other times, etc.


OK, I surrender, fiberglass small boats will paint just as well as a
steel hul in the same conditions

Yeah right!!

LOL keep trying .... some fiberglass hulls will paint better than some
steel hulls under some conditions..... THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES!!!!!!


So there are conditions where you wouldn't notice a small boat or
yacht!

Of course ..... in good visibility, bad visibility, day or night.


Yep, that's what you said, I was just confirming it so that we'd
understand that in conditions where you don't have the added ability
of clear vision then its inherently dangerous to be steaming around at
25kts.

Once Again .... LOL... WRONG ! Clear vision is no guarantee of safety.
It may be just as dangerous to travel at night or daylight, at 25k, as
it is in fog .... it depends on the conditions and available equipment,
as to whether this is safe, or at least, minimizes the danger.


Why did he change course? (can think of any number of possibilities)


Who knows. but if you were driving the sucker and you'd seen us would
you have altered your course onto a collision course in open ocean?

Nope I'd have held my course and speed till extremis. When dealing with
small boats, experience has taught me that this is my safest course.
(G know you won't like that one..... there is an exception to this rule. )


otn

OzOne wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:47:39 GMT, otnmbrd
scribbled thusly:


True, but being in a fiberglass boat will make you less visible

To whom, under what conditions? A small boat with a low output radar, or
a ship with 25KW radar? Calm conditions or rough conditions? On what
relative heading?


Aaaargh, you didn't read those links did you?

I read them, but that does not mean I agree with them 100%. My
experiences could and frequently are at variance under different
conditions. I don't automatically expect to see or not see something on
radar, and/or visually, in all conditions of visibility.


OK, I surrender, fiberglass small boats will paint just as well as a
steel hul in the same conditions

Yeah right!!

LOL keep trying .... some fiberglass hulls will paint better than some
steel hulls under some conditions..... THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES!!!!!!


Grrrr, of course not...and it's not the fiberglass, it's the
spars,engine,metalwork, paint, even radar reflector.

It is unimportant, in a practical sense, as to what technical aspect may
cause that return.
Most ships, at sea, will be monitoring a higher range scale, than most
boats (12m or 24m) to give early warning and plotting of traffic. On
these scales, a small boat (of whatever material) will tend to be a
smaller target, frequently similar in size to scattered sea return.
It is here that the operators abilities become more important.
It should also be noted, that when on these range scales, it is common
practice to turn down the "sea return" , a good deal, to improve the
overall picture ( some newer sets are handling this better) which means
that those smaller targets may be more readily confused with sea return
and be lost sooner in the center "plume" of that return, which makes
range scanning important.


So there are conditions where you wouldn't notice a small boat or
yacht!

Of course ..... in good visibility, bad visibility, day or night.


Yep, that's what you said, I was just confirming it so that we'd
understand that in conditions where you don't have the added ability
of clear vision then its inherently dangerous to be steaming around at
25kts.

Once Again .... LOL... WRONG ! Clear vision is no guarantee of safety.
It may be just as dangerous to travel at night or daylight, at 25k, as
it is in fog .... it depends on the conditions and available equipment,
as to whether this is safe, or at least, minimizes the danger.


OK, so being able to see makes no difference...OK....?

G Since not all collisions occur in restricted visibility, if I follow
your logic I would have to say yes. However, I don't follow your logic,
so I will say .... not always.


Why did he change course? (can think of any number of possibilities)


Who knows. but if you were driving the sucker and you'd seen us would
you have altered your course onto a collision course in open ocean?

Nope I'd have held my course and speed till extremis. When dealing with
small boats, experience has taught me that this is my safest course.
(G know you won't like that one..... there is an exception to this rule. )


Yep, I like that.....he altered course toward us.

Which I wouldn't understand, so assume that there may have been more
going on.

otn

OzOne wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 05:44:53 GMT, otnmbrd
scribbled thusly:



And the idea that fiberglass boats are not easily seen with radar is
not one to be discarded

Of course not, but their construction may have nothing to do with the
fact that they weren't seen. Fiberglass construction is not a catch all
for poor radar visibility, just as steel in not a catch all for good
radar visibility.


True, but being in a fiberglass boat will make you less visible


snipped a bunch of items, intended to bolster your position
I look at items such as these as examples of possible problems, not
absolutes ... you remember these things, and work around them, apply
them to your conditions, find them in error at times, find them true at
other times, etc.


OK, I surrender, fiberglass small boats will paint just as well as a
steel hul in the same conditions

Yeah right!!


No, really that's why radomes are often made of it ;-)

Cheers