"DSK" wrote in message
...
Usually it
refers to a sailing vessel's ability to make good speed to windward,
ie maintaining above average (or at least, better than the vessel
being compared) VMG. In some senses, it can be taken to mean being
able to make good to windward under adverse conditons.


So, does that mean that a catamaran that has a good VMG is more weatherly than a
monohull that points higher? Does "under adverse conditions" mean, for
instance, a chop, which a cat might handle well, or does it imply the issue of
tacking quickly, which may be needed to work off a lee shore?

I'm not debating; I'm bringing this up because I've been asked if my cat would
be considered "weatherly," and my answer is "in some ways, yes; in other ways,
no."

Having enjoyed the adrenaline rush of raising anchor and clawing off a nasty lee
shore at 3 in the morning, I'm glad my cat has twin diesels.

Jeff Morris wrote:


So, does that mean that a catamaran that has a good VMG is more weatherly than a
monohull that points higher?

Of course not, don't be silly

Actually, I'd give some consideration that the higher pointing boat would be the
more weatherly, but actual VMG should probably be the deciding factor.



Does "under adverse conditions" mean, for
instance, a chop, which a cat might handle well, or does it imply the issue of
tacking quickly, which may be needed to work off a lee shore?

Again this is just my HO but 'weatherliness' doesn't include tacking.



I'm not debating; I'm bringing this up because I've been asked if my cat would
be considered "weatherly," and my answer is "in some ways, yes; in other ways,
no."

That's a good answer.



Having enjoyed the adrenaline rush of raising anchor and clawing off a nasty lee
shore at 3 in the morning, I'm glad my cat has twin diesels.

Whatever works. I've not only motored out from lee shores, I've done it in reverse.
Mind you, I'm not claiming that had Joshua Slocum been in my shoes he'd have done
the same thing....

FB
DSK

DSK wrote:

Jeff Morris wrote:


So, does that mean that a catamaran that has a good VMG is more weatherly than a
monohull that points higher?


Of course not, don't be silly

Actually, I'd give some consideration that the higher pointing boat would be the
more weatherly, but actual VMG should probably be the deciding factor.



No, your first guess was right : the most weatherly boat is the boat
that goes closest to the wind. As long as the DMG is to windward you can
escape a lee. A high VMG might be made by a very shallow angle to the
wind. Think about being caught in a lee bay... When you add in losses
for tacking the faster VMG might not get out...

Cheers

DSK wrote in message

amazingly well. If the chop increases and flow in both air and water
gets turbulent, they loose their efficiency and lower aspect rigs, and
keels that are stubbier & swept back are the best.

Also in chop, lighter boats can be stopped by a wave.
The light weight water ballasted Mini-Transat boats
use ballast, not just for increasing righting moment
but to maintain inertia--the added mass keeps them
moving.

I agree a broader keel would be less likely to stall
in turbulent conditions. Why is it better for such
keels to be swept back?

Bart Senior

N1EE wrote:


Also in chop, lighter boats can be stopped by a wave.

True. And while it is possible to foot off and regain some VMG, usually you
can't regain all of it.


The light weight water ballasted Mini-Transat boats
use ballast, not just for increasing righting moment
but to maintain inertia--the added mass keeps them
moving.

They also shift the center of mass forward, put the bow down.



I agree a broader keel would be less likely to stall
in turbulent conditions. Why is it better for such
keels to be swept back?

I don't really know how it works, but swept back foils are more resistant to
stalling. Anther keel shape you might notice some time is that many fin
keels are tapered in profile to the bottom edge, but they are not tapered in
section. The chord gets shorter and the camber gets fatter. This does two
things, it reduce turbulence off the bottom edge and makes the lower secton
harder to stall, and gets more ballast down low.

BTW I thought Frank's answer was good. Much shorter and to the point than my
rambling posts.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
....snip...
BTW I thought Frank's answer was good. Much shorter and to the point than my
rambling posts.

Thanks, Doug; but my comments were too brusque. You actually took the
time and effort to explain some details, when by contrast I just said
something like "trim appropriately." Probably not very valuable advice
to someone who's a bit hazy on the "best" way to trim his/her boat.

Sounds like we're basically talking about the same concepts; so maybe
in either case it's a starting point for discussion/argument, like the
thread about cats vs. monohulls and pointing vs. VMG which developed
from your comments. That was good stuff.

These are the kind of threads which make this ng valuable to
participants. (Well, *this* participant, anyway.) I hadda laugh when
Bobsprit jumped in and offered his advice on how to pose a question
for discussion. Yeah, right. Like anything he's ever posted has
generated and actual discussion. It's always just looooong threads of
"my dick's the biggest" vs. "no, my dick's bigger" and "you're gay"
vs. "no, you're gay."

I'm happy to have an honest disagreement with someone. I have friends
who favor "classic cruisers" with full keels, high D/L ratios, etc.;
and we often have long "discussions" over a bottle of wine (or two)
about what constitutes the "best" sailboat. We sometimes get a bit
loud; but somehow it never degenerates into that silly ad hominem
crap.

Anyway, I'll just say that this was a good thread. I've enjoyed it and
look forward to others like it. I don't participate often; but I read
most threads here.

DSK wrote

What makes a boat 'weatherly?' Firstly, an effective rig... most
importantly one that can be shaped and sheeted inboard for maintaining
drive at an angle close to the wind.


One big improvement that can be made in many production
boats is to put on a proper jib/genoa sheet track to bring the sheet
lead inboard. Sheeting to the toerail ain't gonna get it (in most
boats).

Using a second jib sheet to place the jib clue
where you want it is an option--like a barber
hauler only pulling inboard. This only works
if the shrouds don't get in the way! Usually,
the jib tracks are located as far inboard as
the shrouds will allow, and barberhaulers are
used to pull the jib clue outboard when sailing
more off the wind.

So it all depends on what you are using for a
head sail. A small jib with it's clue forward
of the shrouds could be controlled more accurately
using this method, with jib sheet chafing at
the shrouds.

Bart Senior

DSK wrote:


To improve the weatherliness of any boat, start first with the rig.
The mast should be straight & vertically centered... you'd be amazed
at how many sailors, even racers, are breezing around with crooked
and/or slanted masts.

Doug, I am surprised at this comment and I'll disagree with it for a
number of reasons: Bending the mast aft can flatten the main. A flatter
main is better at high wind strengths -and apparent wind is highest when
going upwind. Flattening the main also helps keep the slot open to
increase the efficiency of the foresail. The latter is the most
important sail for weatherliness. So by bending the mast aft, forestay
tension is increased to reduce forestay sag that reduces efficiency.
Finally, straightening the mast is not a good idea if the main sail is
old and out of shape (where the bend helps keep the draft forward) or
even not originally cut to a straight mast!

Finally, as an extra bonus, adding some mast bend can help prevent mast
inversion in severe conditions which can lead to a catastrophic collapse
(but I wouldn't expect you to know about that problem).

while most should know that the rake of the mast affects C of E and the
degree of weather helm, I'll guess that many do knot know that by giving
the boat some weather helm she climbs to windward better as the rudder
adds lift.

So, the bottom line is that it may be quite inappropriate to straighten
the mast to make the boat weatherly.

Cheers

MC wrote:

Doug, I am surprised at this comment and I'll disagree with it for a
number of reasons: Bending the mast aft can flatten the main.

That isn't what I was talking about. And the sail has to be cut to take the
mast bend into account, or it doesn't work.


So, the bottom line is that it may be quite inappropriate to straighten
the mast to make the boat weatherly.

Considering that you don't know that 20 doesn't equal 15, and from what you
have said about your racing results, you have a lot more to learn than to
teach.

DSK

DSK wrote:

MC wrote:


Doug, I am surprised at this comment and I'll disagree with it for a
number of reasons: Bending the mast aft can flatten the main.


That isn't what I was talking about. And the sail has to be cut to take the
mast bend into account, or it doesn't work.


So, you don't understand why bending a mast can flatten the main? Try
visiting a sail trimming site such as North -they explain it well and it
is really basic stuff.


So, the bottom line is that it may be quite inappropriate to straighten
the mast to make the boat weatherly.


Considering that you don't know that 20 doesn't equal 15, and from what you
have said about your racing results, you have a lot more to learn than to
teach.

Aww, don't pout so. Why do you continue with this nonsense. Look up the
boat I named and you'll find it's not 24' nor 20' long. These are your
fabrications getting in the way of truth again. Sorry, you lose again.

Cheers