Bart,

James question should be answered. It was a good question. Define
WEATHERLY? That is very important to be clear on what is meant by
Weatherly.

Doug's answer explains a boats ability to go to "weather" Jeff
indicated VMG. They are only part of a good weatherly Boat.

In the last Am Cup Race, the KIWI"s had a boat that could go to wind at
a great angle. The POS needed full pumps and a man with a bucket to get
rid of the stern wave.

Any cruiser, worth his "Salt" would give away a little VMG for a dry
boat that will get up wind reasonable in a dry, comfortable fashion.
When beating into the wind for a couple of days, VMG isn't as important
as a dry boat that doesn't pound your teeth out. A boat that will trim
out at a decent heel (About 15 to 20 deg) that doesn't pull your arm out
of your shoulder socket with windward helm. A boat that will let you fry
an egg in the galley that is nearly round while climbing on the wind
near or on a 45 deg heading into the wind. Some of us Ole Timers would
call a boat that tacks thru 100 deg that has the other point a very,
very satisfactory "Weatherly Vessel"

A boat that can be trimmed with back stay tension, cunningham and maybe
barbar hauled sheet (If necessary) a weatherly rig. No jacks or sail
changes. That would be a Weatherly rig

A Hull shaped so that it wouldn't round up in a 25 Deg heel and carry a
neutral helm. A helm that would add enough reserved buoyancy in a heel
to keep the hull close to under the sail to maintain a heading

If it had all these characteristics and sailed like a witch would be
perfect!

Would you like to see the pictures of "Peunma" again?

Ole Thom

I think the most import issue regarding having
a weatherly boat is the ability to claw off a
lee shore--that is survivability.

So you brought up a very good point Thom! Points
to you. If you are freezing cold, wet, seasick,
and hungry, the upwind performance of the boat
will not matter much.

Bart Senior

(Thom Stewart) wrote

Bart,

James question should be answered. It was a good question. Define
WEATHERLY? That is very important to be clear on what is meant by
Weatherly.

Doug's answer explains a boats ability to go to "weather" Jeff
indicated VMG. They are only part of a good weatherly Boat.

In the last Am Cup Race, the KIWI"s had a boat that could go to wind at
a great angle. The POS needed full pumps and a man with a bucket to get
rid of the stern wave.

Any cruiser, worth his "Salt" would give away a little VMG for a dry
boat that will get up wind reasonable in a dry, comfortable fashion.
When beating into the wind for a couple of days, VMG isn't as important
as a dry boat that doesn't pound your teeth out. A boat that will trim
out at a decent heel (About 15 to 20 deg) that doesn't pull your arm out
of your shoulder socket with windward helm. A boat that will let you fry
an egg in the galley that is nearly round while climbing on the wind
near or on a 45 deg heading into the wind. Some of us Ole Timers would
call a boat that tacks thru 100 deg that has the other point a very,
very satisfactory "Weatherly Vessel"

A boat that can be trimmed with back stay tension, cunningham and maybe
barbar hauled sheet (If necessary) a weatherly rig. No jacks or sail
changes. That would be a Weatherly rig

A Hull shaped so that it wouldn't round up in a 25 Deg heel and carry a
neutral helm. A helm that would add enough reserved buoyancy in a heel
to keep the hull close to under the sail to maintain a heading

If it had all these characteristics and sailed like a witch would be
perfect!

Would you like to see the pictures of "Peunma" again?

Ole Thom

(Frank Maier) wrote

(N1EE) asked:
What makes a boat weatherly?
What is the best keel type, hull form, and rig type?

Dictionary def: Ability to sail close to the wind with little drift to
leeward.

Deep fin. Low wetted surface; low CsubP. Masthead sloop.

I would think a fractional rig would perform better upwind
because of the increased options for sail shaping.

Why did you choose a masthead sloop?

Bart Senior

DSK wrote in message

amazingly well. If the chop increases and flow in both air and water
gets turbulent, they loose their efficiency and lower aspect rigs, and
keels that are stubbier & swept back are the best.

Also in chop, lighter boats can be stopped by a wave.
The light weight water ballasted Mini-Transat boats
use ballast, not just for increasing righting moment
but to maintain inertia--the added mass keeps them
moving.

I agree a broader keel would be less likely to stall
in turbulent conditions. Why is it better for such
keels to be swept back?

Bart Senior

"Jeff Morris" wrote

http://www.americascupcharters.com/2us17.htm

These are some of the most beautiful boats sailing.
I used to watch these yachts "pretend to race" every
day when I worked in Newport.

I have a general policy of not paying for "rides"
otherwise I'd try one of these. Still I highly
recommend them. It's a great idea for a date.

Why a Mast head Rig?

He is probably a lot like me. That is what I'm use to. A mast head
balances better while cruising. That's my opinion and it is just my
opinion, for what its worth.

I've sailed on 3/4 rigs, and have to admit, the ability of watching that
rig automatically flatten the main in a puff does make me green with
envy. No helm correction needed during or after. Nice! I've often
wondered how it would preform on Main alone? My boat sails just fine. No
excessive weather helm. I know some fractional rigs won't. I know my
rig and am at ease with it

Ole Thom

DSK wrote

What makes a boat 'weatherly?' Firstly, an effective rig... most
importantly one that can be shaped and sheeted inboard for maintaining
drive at an angle close to the wind.


One big improvement that can be made in many production
boats is to put on a proper jib/genoa sheet track to bring the sheet
lead inboard. Sheeting to the toerail ain't gonna get it (in most
boats).

Using a second jib sheet to place the jib clue
where you want it is an option--like a barber
hauler only pulling inboard. This only works
if the shrouds don't get in the way! Usually,
the jib tracks are located as far inboard as
the shrouds will allow, and barberhaulers are
used to pull the jib clue outboard when sailing
more off the wind.

So it all depends on what you are using for a
head sail. A small jib with it's clue forward
of the shrouds could be controlled more accurately
using this method, with jib sheet chafing at
the shrouds.

Bart Senior

"N1EE" wrote in message
om...
I think the most import issue regarding having
a weatherly boat is the ability to claw off a
lee shore--that is survivability.

So you brought up a very good point Thom! Points
to you. If you are freezing cold, wet, seasick,
and hungry, the upwind performance of the boat
will not matter much.


I've been wondering about the definition of "weatherly" since this question
was posed [ one point Bart].


A couple of years ago, I was on a friend's 42' Bavaria. It was February,
and we were beating into an F5 under sail and 50 hp engine. I was very
aware of the fact that we were slamming much less than Setanta would have
been, under the same circumstances. The main difference was the extra
waterline length. The extra weight was also noticable.


So, to answer your original question, I would say that waterline length is
the most important factor.



Regards


Donal
--

N1EE wrote:


Also in chop, lighter boats can be stopped by a wave.

True. And while it is possible to foot off and regain some VMG, usually you
can't regain all of it.


The light weight water ballasted Mini-Transat boats
use ballast, not just for increasing righting moment
but to maintain inertia--the added mass keeps them
moving.

They also shift the center of mass forward, put the bow down.



I agree a broader keel would be less likely to stall
in turbulent conditions. Why is it better for such
keels to be swept back?

I don't really know how it works, but swept back foils are more resistant to
stalling. Anther keel shape you might notice some time is that many fin
keels are tapered in profile to the bottom edge, but they are not tapered in
section. The chord gets shorter and the camber gets fatter. This does two
things, it reduce turbulence off the bottom edge and makes the lower secton
harder to stall, and gets more ballast down low.

BTW I thought Frank's answer was good. Much shorter and to the point than my
rambling posts.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"N1EE" wrote ...
I think the most import issue regarding having
a weatherly boat is the ability to claw off a
lee shore--that is survivability.

Agreed, it is a very important ability especially in a cruiser that goes into
out of the way anchorages.



So you brought up a very good point Thom! Points
to you. If you are freezing cold, wet, seasick,
and hungry, the upwind performance of the boat
will not matter much.



I dunno... seems to me that being cold, wet, seasick, hungry, and getting bashed
into rocks on a lee shore would be worse.


Donal wrote:
I've been wondering about the definition of "weatherly" since this question
was posed [ one point Bart].

A couple of years ago, I was on a friend's 42' Bavaria. It was February,
and we were beating into an F5 under sail and 50 hp engine. I was very
aware of the fact that we were slamming much less than Setanta would have
been, under the same circumstances. The main difference was the extra
waterline length. The extra weight was also noticable.

So, to answer your original question, I would say that waterline length is
the most important factor.

Bigger is better, but it ain't evrything. The old square riggers were much
longer on the waterline than any modern sailboats, and they were not weatherly
at all by comparison. Look up the term 'embayed' and think if this has happened
to you or anyone you know sailing a modern small boat.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King