I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.

Andy.

Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

Ronstan Bridge to Bridge, SF, CA

The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
My money would be on the 18ft skiff.

I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...




The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.



AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.


I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...


well, being "not much (if any) faster" than a keelboat or skiff around
a windward leeward is considered pretty great by most windsurfers
familiar with the problems involved. it was only a few years ago - like
maybe 4, that even that would have been imposssible. as you say, windsurfers
are fast on a reach, but they have always been. their good windward/leeward
speed is a relatively new phenomenon, it represents a dramatic performance
increase over trhe last few years.

jeff feehan






The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.


Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.



AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.


It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

jeff feehan wrote:


well, being "not much (if any) faster" than a keelboat or skiff around
a windward leeward is considered pretty great by most windsurfers
familiar with the problems involved.

Sure. Faster = better
But you still can't pop a beer while windsurfing, or bring a friend.

BTW I have not had a chance to benchmark the speed of these kitesurfers against
any of the boats I sail. From watching them, they seem to prefer reaching back &
forth.


it was only a few years ago - like
maybe 4, that even that would have been imposssible. as you say, windsurfers
are fast on a reach, but they have always been. their good windward/leeward
speed is a relatively new phenomenon, it represents a dramatic performance
increase over trhe last few years.

Well, monohull performance has increased in the past few years too. There are
more controllable rigs, screechers, square tops, improved foil designs, etc etc.
But it seems to me that improvements in windsurfers are more widely distributed
faster than in small fast monohulls. Especially one-design classes, most of which
are actually rather backwards-looking and Luddite.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I did a bit of fast reching myself early NewYears day,
and I do windsurf.

-Craig

DSK wrote:
[snip]


In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...


[snip]
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins

The Lechner remark isn't exactly accurate, in particular since other Div.II
from that era were considered better (like the Davidson). Moreover, I think
it was tongue in cheek. But still wrong on another level in that in a
steady light wind (9 knots) a FW board will kill any Div.II board around
most any course.

Hey Doug, where are you? Bellsouth gives you away!

--
-Dan
"DSK" wrote in message
...
I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...




The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.



AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the
boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old
heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote in message ...
I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.


brian wrote:
Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...

So, fact is, the Windsurfer wins the leeward leg of the regular/proper
windward/leeward course with a 30 second spurt. Still won that leg
though.



The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.

Yes your right I'm sure there are faster non-displacement monos
around. But they had a course set and were out there racin so I went
out and joined them.

First year I had my Foumula Board I riged and went out and tried racin
the Tornado's in the Rolex Olympic Class Regatta on Biscayne Bay. I
wasn't even close.
Now I have some better equipment, a bit more skill, and can tune the
stuff better for the conditions.
Had the chance to do a side by side with a couple of Tornados out
tuning last month. It was no problem to pull away from them this
time. But this wasn't a race.


AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. 10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

Steep chop like on Biscayne Bay does slow the windsurfer down. Still
not slower than the sailboat.

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.

whonositflosit
Fesstoosn- Brian

brian wrote:

What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.

whonositflosit
Fesstoosn- Brian

depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
10 kts - 12 would be safer.

the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.

jeff feehan

Hello, If you check the Portsmith handicap numbers. The A-Scow smokes all
other centerboard monohulls including the M-20. I've seen a picture of one
pulling a water skier.

Best Wishes, Steve Ross

http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/...tables03cb.htm

"Harken Ronstan" wrote in message
om...
What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
triangle course these days?

I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

"Steven J. Ross" sross45atcomcast.net wrote in message ...
Hello, If you check the Portsmith handicap numbers. The A-Scow smokes all
other centerboard monohulls including the M-20. I've seen a picture of one
pulling a water skier.

Best Wishes, Steve Ross

http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/...tables03cb.htm

"Harken Ronstan" wrote in message
om...
What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
triangle course these days?

I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.


Funny that the M-20 looks like a Fireball, which I still own. I
sailed it for 10 years including with world record holders in the
Fireball class. It was fast and fun, but certainly not compared to
windsurfing! It was intersting to see that it's rating was in low
80's, which is respectable. This was the dingly class of are yacht
clubs a while back. The problem was they turned out to be too much
boat for the Jr's and the they turtled and got stuck in the mud. I
did manage to drink excessive amounts of beer, sail solo with all
three sails up and go like hell. Thanks for the memories.