"Donal" wrote in message
...

IMHO 25 knots and fog is not good, regardless of the lookout.

The point that Jeff and Jon and I have been trying to make is that taking
a
small boat with poor radar return and little chance of evading ship
traffc,
into a shipping lane in fog, leaves no way to comply properly with ColRegs
or
for that matter good seamanship.

I don't disagree with you. However Jeff has been saying that the kayak
"has no business" there. I strongly disagree with that statement.


Its certainly your right to disagree; its an opinion, not a legal claim or
statement of fact.


A kayak could easily find itself in a position where it had no choice in the
matter.

Easily find itself? You mean they go to bed in their cozy flat, and suddenly
wake up in the middle of the world's largest TSS? I think you would have to
agree that the only way for this to happen is a deliberate attempt to cross the
English Channel, or some similar venture. This is not a case of of going out to
a harbor island for a picnic.

If you wanted to make a case for the kayak, you could start with a trip to a
harbor island, where the return involved crossing channel a few hundred yards
wide - then I might have some sympathy. But if they had not taken the basic
precautions that would make this safer, that sympathy would be short lived.

TSS lanes can be 5 miles wide, with 10 miles between them.

A few are, but they are obviously miles offshore.

Fog can descend when it is not expected.

It should always be expected. Anyone that goes that far offshore should be
prepared to deal with the possibilities. Even if they were intent on crossing
the Channel, they should be making a weather assessment when they're out there
before commiting to crossing the TSS. If this is beyond their capabilities,
then I would claim (I'll bet you can guess) they have no business being there.

The CollRegs (IMHO) accept that the unexpected can happen.

Yes, and departures from the rules can become necessary.

That is why the CollRegs never assign a right of
way. It is *always* the duty of any vessel to avoid a collision.

This is all correct, but you're leaving out several key issues. For instance,
what speed are you claiming is appropriate for a ship in a TSS in thick fog?
You've already said that most vessels go 12 knots, many do 18 in your
experience. 12 knots is 20 feet/second, so in time it takes to identify the
hazard, report to the helm, "put on the brakes" etc, the ship has probably
already run over the kayak. If we add in the stopping distance of tanker, its
hard to see how a large ship can take any effective action if they're even going
at minimum steerageway. So are you requiring that all traffic cease in thick
fog because of the possibility of a kayak?

Mind you, I'm not claiming the ship should not post a lookout, or not be
prepared for the possibility, or not make all possible efforts to avoid the
collision; to do so would be both reprehensible and illegal. However, in
practice, these efforts would likely (often, at least) be futile. To claim its
OK for the kayak to be there because large ships have a duty to avoid a
collision is meaningless.

And what of the responsibility of the kayak? Requiring the large ship to do a
crash stop is violating its responsibility not to impede. How does it maintain
a lookout? How does it avoid a collision? My claim is simply that starting out
on a venture that has a fair possibility of these results is not right - the
kayaker has no business doing it.

But what is your claim? Are you saying its OK because the large ship must avoid
collision? Is it OK if there's only a 10% chance of fog? Is it OK because they
have a legal right to try? Or because they don't start out with the intention
of violating the rules? What's your point here?