Jeff Morris wrote:

I appreciate that blame is is usually shared. But if a kayak crosses an oil
tanker, what blame do you assign to tanker?

Without being too pedantic, it is not in my job description to assign
blame. There will be a board of Coast Guard officers to handle that
chore. It will be a decision based on more than I know about the
circumstances.

Yes, the kayak has the same rights of navigation as the tanker within
the COLREGS and VTS requirements.


What do you mean?

I mean the kayaker has the same right to displace that water as the
tanker operator. They must both adhere to the rules applicable to those
waters and their operation upon them.


In other words, you're agreeing with me. Thank you.

I am simply stating the facts that should be obvious to anyone who is in
command of a vessel on navigable waters.

You want to play captain, you take the responsibility that comes with
the job.


I'm glad you agree with me.

You don't need my agreement to be correct. I also believe that while
tradition and job security may dictate some coonass going like a bat out
of hell down the Atchafalaya or the HSC in zero visibility tradition
won't hold water in the hearing room or in court afterwards. Job
security ends at the point of impact.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
link.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

I appreciate that blame is is usually shared. But if a kayak crosses an oil
tanker, what blame do you assign to tanker?

Without being too pedantic, it is not in my job description to assign
blame. There will be a board of Coast Guard officers to handle that
chore. It will be a decision based on more than I know about the
circumstances.

In other words, you don't know.

So what is a safe speed for a tanker in a VTS in the fog? You keep evading the
question. Should all shipping shut down in the fog?


Yes, the kayak has the same rights of navigation as the tanker within
the COLREGS and VTS requirements.


What do you mean?

I mean the kayaker has the same right to displace that water as the
tanker operator. They must both adhere to the rules applicable to those
waters and their operation upon them.


In other words, you don't know.

You're claiming that the kayak has the right to travel in a VTS in thick fog?
I think not.



In other words, you're agreeing with me. Thank you.

I am simply stating the facts that should be obvious to anyone who is in
command of a vessel on navigable waters.

In other words, you don't know.

Have you advised kayakers that that have a right to cross large ships in the
fog? Do you tell kids to play in the street?


You want to play captain, you take the responsibility that comes with
the job.


I'm glad you agree with me.

You don't need my agreement to be correct. I also believe that while
tradition and job security may dictate some coonass going like a bat out
of hell down the Atchafalaya or the HSC in zero visibility tradition
won't hold water in the hearing room or in court afterwards. Job
security ends at the point of impact.

To be honest, I've never seen the HSC, except as a tourist. But I thought that
major portions of it are a security zone, closed to all recreational traffic.
I don't know if 20 knots would be considered unsafe there; my only reference is
that in New England, 6 or 7 knots or faster is common for ferries in thick fog.
At this speed, it would be impossible to avoid a kayak that was not seen on
radar, not matter how good the lookout is.

As an example, the report on the collision in zero visibility between the Bar
Harbor Fast Cat and a fishing boat out of Yarmouth found little fault with the
ferry, even though it was going 13.4 knots in the channel. Almost all of the
contributing factors in the final report had to do the actions of the fishing
boat, its speed was too fast (9 knots) for the mediocre quality of its radar, it
continued to cross after acknowledging the presence of the cat, etc. Although
the incident caused an uproar, the ferry continues to operate, doing over 40
knots in open water. (All of the issues had to do with the approach channels at
Yarmouth and Bar Harbor.)
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/mari...1/m98m0061.asp

If the speed of the ferry was not considered an issue in this incident, I have
trouble seeing how the ferry would be found at fault if the other vessel were an
invisible kayak.

Jeff Morris wrote:

In other words, you don't know.

No, I don't. How could I possibly know what a Coast Guard hearing board
would decide? Or what a civil court will determine in a wrongful death suit?

All I know for sure is what measures I must take to avoid ever having to
find out.


So what is a safe speed for a tanker in a VTS in the fog?

A safe speed.


You keep evading the question.

I made every effort to answer the question as clearly as possible. There
are no one word answers for all conditions and for the very brief set of
conditions and circumstances you outlined. Welcome to the real world of
boating.

You refuse to accept that vessel operations are not as simple and clear
cut as you wish they were. If you are looking for someone to tell you
exactly what to do in each and every condition then do not sail as master.

Should all shipping shut down in the fog?

Maybe, maybe not, it all depends.

You're claiming that the kayak has the right to travel in a VTS in thick fog?
I think not.

You may think what you like. Just don't bet your license or your life
savings on that sort of thinking.

Just 'twixt us, it behooves you to stop "thinking" what "rights" another
vessel operator has and learn what they really are and how it effects
your own operation.

Have you advised kayakers that that have a right to cross large ships in the
fog? Do you tell kids to play in the street?

Has anyone advised you to continue this absurd argument?

Why don't you stop playing on the internet and read the COLREGS. If you
have problems understanding who can do what when and where, ask someone
who lives by those rules, ask the CG who administer the rules and sit on
the hearing boards. What you want to think or believe might just get you
in a lot of trouble some day.

If the speed of the ferry was not considered an issue in this incident, I have
trouble seeing how the ferry would be found at fault if the other vessel were an
invisible kayak.

Perhaps because there were factors in that collision which you are not
aware of or don't understand.

The only way you will know why and how the CG came to their conclusion
is to read the report in its entirety and then read it again after
getting a few years experience in a wheelhouse as a master. If you still
disagree with their finding then come back here and tell us why they
were wrong.

Rick

Bull**** Rick. You're just pontificating to hide that fact that you know you're
wrong. I made a comment that kayaks should avoid shipping channels in the fog,
and you saw this as an opportunity to play second rate pedagogue.

Yes I agree that any collision is bad news and should be avoided. And the any
master would be well advised to consider all possibilities.

However, if you believe that a small kayak, effectively invisible to radar,
could be anywhere, then it would be impossible to proceed in thick fog. Large
vessels have stopping distances far greater than visibility in thick fog - there
is absolutely no way avoid a collision even in good visibility.

Further, you seem to be claiming that the kayak has no obligation to follow the
rules. The only way that any speed is a "safe speed" is if you can assume that
all parties will behave in a reasonable manor. What speed is safe if a vessel
suddenly alters course and crosses in your path?

And you even admitted, in your convoluted way, that I'm right in the case of a
VTS. Isn't that what you meant when you said "kayak has the same rights of
navigation as the tanker within the COLREGS and VTS requirements."? Obviously,
you don't mean the kayak has the same rights, you mean that the kayak is
obligated to follow the rules of the VTS, which require it not to impede the
tanker.

So, you're the captain of a tanker? What do you do in the fog? If you give
your "maybe yes, maybe no" bull**** to your owners, you're out of a job.


"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

In other words, you don't know.

No, I don't. How could I possibly know what a Coast Guard hearing board
would decide? Or what a civil court will determine in a wrongful death suit?

All I know for sure is what measures I must take to avoid ever having to
find out.


So what is a safe speed for a tanker in a VTS in the fog?

A safe speed.


You keep evading the question.

I made every effort to answer the question as clearly as possible. There
are no one word answers for all conditions and for the very brief set of
conditions and circumstances you outlined. Welcome to the real world of
boating.

You refuse to accept that vessel operations are not as simple and clear
cut as you wish they were. If you are looking for someone to tell you
exactly what to do in each and every condition then do not sail as master.

Should all shipping shut down in the fog?

Maybe, maybe not, it all depends.

You're claiming that the kayak has the right to travel in a VTS in thick
fog?
I think not.

You may think what you like. Just don't bet your license or your life
savings on that sort of thinking.

Just 'twixt us, it behooves you to stop "thinking" what "rights" another
vessel operator has and learn what they really are and how it effects
your own operation.

Have you advised kayakers that that have a right to cross large ships in the
fog? Do you tell kids to play in the street?

Has anyone advised you to continue this absurd argument?

Why don't you stop playing on the internet and read the COLREGS. If you
have problems understanding who can do what when and where, ask someone
who lives by those rules, ask the CG who administer the rules and sit on
the hearing boards. What you want to think or believe might just get you
in a lot of trouble some day.

If the speed of the ferry was not considered an issue in this incident, I
have
trouble seeing how the ferry would be found at fault if the other vessel
were an
invisible kayak.

Perhaps because there were factors in that collision which you are not
aware of or don't understand.

The only way you will know why and how the CG came to their conclusion
is to read the report in its entirety and then read it again after
getting a few years experience in a wheelhouse as a master. If you still
disagree with their finding then come back here and tell us why they
were wrong.

Rick

Jeff Morris wrote:

Bull**** Rick. You're just pontificating to hide that fact that you know you're
wrong. I made a comment that kayaks should avoid shipping channels in the fog,
and you saw this as an opportunity to play second rate pedagogue.

What kayaks should do in the fog is spelled out in the COLREGS. What you
think they should or should not do is irrelevant.

Further, you seem to be claiming that the kayak has no obligation to follow the
rules. The only way that any speed is a "safe speed" is if you can assume that
all parties will behave in a reasonable manor.

You are ranting now. Please quote exactly where and when I said the
kayaker has no obligation to follow the rules. I stated very plainly
that both vessels are compelled to follow the rules.

If you are going to start playing games and making up crap to suit your
position, or lack of one then go play by yourself. I won't waste time
with a belligerent amateur. You are beginning to sound like Nil.

What speed is safe if a vessel
suddenly alters course and crosses in your path?

Those are separate circumstances. You are playing games.

you don't mean the kayak has the same rights, you mean that the kayak is
obligated to follow the rules of the VTS, which require it not to impede the
tanker.

I mean the kayaker has every right to operate in or across the lanes
subject to the VTS operating limitations and procedures and COLREGS.

I am not going to waste a bunch of time on this with you, if you can't
comprehend the fact that there is no compilation of precise rules to
cover each and every possible combination of weather, visibility,
traffic, vessel type, and operator mindset then you should stay home or
at least stay away from other boats in all conditions.

What you think of my answers is no more valid than what you "think" a
kayak paddler is allowed to do.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

Bull**** Rick. You're just pontificating to hide that fact that you know
you're
wrong. I made a comment that kayaks should avoid shipping channels in the
fog,
and you saw this as an opportunity to play second rate pedagogue.

What kayaks should do in the fog is spelled out in the COLREGS. What you
think they should or should not do is irrelevant.


So tell us. What do you think the ColRegs say? Especially regarding kayaks in
a VTS. You keep saying that I should read the book, but its looking like you
never have.

Further, you seem to be claiming that the kayak has no obligation to follow
the
rules. The only way that any speed is a "safe speed" is if you can assume
that
all parties will behave in a reasonable manor.

You are ranting now. Please quote exactly where and when I said the
kayaker has no obligation to follow the rules. I stated very plainly
that both vessels are compelled to follow the rules.

You stated very little "plainly." But you started by saying they have the same
rights as everyone; I claim they have different obligations.


If you are going to start playing games and making up crap to suit your
position, or lack of one then go play by yourself. I won't waste time
with a belligerent amateur. You are beginning to sound like Nil.

What speed is safe if a vessel
suddenly alters course and crosses in your path?

Those are separate circumstances. You are playing games.

No. You started this by claiming the kayak has the right to cross shipping
lanes in fog. Since the ColRegs specifically say they can't impede a
power-driven vessel in the VTS, they would be violating the rules just the same
as the vessel that behaves erratically.


you don't mean the kayak has the same rights, you mean that the kayak is
obligated to follow the rules of the VTS, which require it not to impede the
tanker.

I mean the kayaker has every right to operate in or across the lanes
subject to the VTS operating limitations and procedures and COLREGS.


Bull****. You're saying he has the right to do it unless he doesn't. The
ColRegs say he doesn't have the right to impede. Without radar, in the fog the
kayak can't tell if he might be impeding. Therefore, he shouldn't be there.
Its really very simple. You're just so wound up pontificating that you can't
see this.

I am not going to waste a bunch of time on this with you, if you can't
comprehend the fact that there is no compilation of precise rules to
cover each and every possible combination of weather, visibility,
traffic, vessel type, and operator mindset then you should stay home or
at least stay away from other boats in all conditions.

I think this should apply to you.


What you think of my answers is no more valid than what you "think" a
kayak paddler is allowed to do.


You haven't given any answers. You've only claimed you know everthing and your
not sharing.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

Bull**** Rick. You're just pontificating to hide that fact that you
know
you're
wrong. I made a comment that kayaks should avoid shipping channels in
the
fog,
and you saw this as an opportunity to play second rate pedagogue.

What kayaks should do in the fog is spelled out in the COLREGS. What you
think they should or should not do is irrelevant.


So tell us. What do you think the ColRegs say? Especially regarding
kayaks in
a VTS. You keep saying that I should read the book, but its looking like
you
never have.

Jeff, Instead of posing "loaded" questions, why don't you post some facts?

You've asked about the CollRegs position on kayaks. Why don't you post the
relevant rule? The answer is simple. There isn't a rule that forbids the
passage of kayaks through a TSS in fog.


If you disagree with me, then post the rule.

You cannot .... because it doesn't exist.

Get real, Jeff!




Further, you seem to be claiming that the kayak has no obligation to
follow
the
rules. The only way that any speed is a "safe speed" is if you can
assume
that
all parties will behave in a reasonable manor.

You are ranting now. Please quote exactly where and when I said the
kayaker has no obligation to follow the rules. I stated very plainly
that both vessels are compelled to follow the rules.

You stated very little "plainly." But you started by saying they have the
same
rights as everyone; I claim they have different obligations.

What on Earth are you blabbering about? The CollRegs apply equally to all
vessels at sea.





If you are going to start playing games and making up crap to suit your
position, or lack of one then go play by yourself. I won't waste time
with a belligerent amateur. You are beginning to sound like Nil.

What speed is safe if a vessel
suddenly alters course and crosses in your path?

Those are separate circumstances. You are playing games.

No. You started this by claiming the kayak has the right to cross
shipping
lanes in fog. Since the ColRegs specifically say they can't impede a
power-driven vessel in the VTS, they would be violating the rules just the
same
as the vessel that behaves erratically.

No, Jeff. They wouldn't..... not unless they actually *impeded* a genuine
TSS user.

There is no guarantee that a kayak would actually impede a TSS user,
therefore your arguement is totally invalid.

Furthermore, if you apply the same logic to the rest of the rules, then the
commercial ships would have to stop, wouldn't they? We all know that this
is not what happens in reality.








you don't mean the kayak has the same rights, you mean that the kayak
is
obligated to follow the rules of the VTS, which require it not to
impede the
tanker.

I mean the kayaker has every right to operate in or across the lanes
subject to the VTS operating limitations and procedures and COLREGS.


Bull****. You're saying he has the right to do it unless he doesn't. The
ColRegs say he doesn't have the right to impede. Without radar, in the
fog the
kayak can't tell if he might be impeding. Therefore, he shouldn't be
there.
Its really very simple. You're just so wound up pontificating that you
can't
see this.

The CollRegs also state that a vessel must proceed at a safe speed. Using
your (twisted) logic, all commercial vessels should come to a complete halt
in thick fog.




I am not going to waste a bunch of time on this with you, if you can't
comprehend the fact that there is no compilation of precise rules to
cover each and every possible combination of weather, visibility,
traffic, vessel type, and operator mindset then you should stay home or
at least stay away from other boats in all conditions.

I think this should apply to you.

You don't appear to "think" at all.




What you think of my answers is no more valid than what you "think" a
kayak paddler is allowed to do.


You haven't given any answers. You've only claimed you know everthing
and your
not sharing.

Sorry, Jeff. You are the person who appears inconsistent.

You are claiming that a kayaker must keep out of fog because he *might*
breach a CollReg. At the same time you suggest that commercial vessels may
definitely breach a CollReg, or two(safe speed & lookout).

You are obviously nuts!




Regards


Donal
--

In article , Jeff Morris
wrote:

"Rick" wrote in message
link.net...
Jeff Morris wrote:

I appreciate that blame is is usually shared. But if a kayak crosses an
oil
tanker, what blame do you assign to tanker?

Without being too pedantic, it is not in my job description to assign
blame. There will be a board of Coast Guard officers to handle that
chore. It will be a decision based on more than I know about the
circumstances.

In other words, you don't know.

So what is a safe speed for a tanker in a VTS in the fog? You keep evading
the
question. Should all shipping shut down in the fog?

By Donal's logic, there isn't a safe speed. Given that the
time/distance taken for a tanker to stop/turn vastly exceeds the
distance a human can see in thick fog, a tanker is always at risk of
running over a kayaker insisting on being the stand-on vessel and
therefore cannot navigate safely.

So, yeah, Donal's basically arguing that shipping has to come to a
standstill if the lookout can't *see* further than it takes the ship to
stop or change course, because a kayak couldn't be reliably detected by
radar. Nice thought, pity about its practicality.

PDW

Should all shipping shut down in the fog?


For perfect safety, yes indeed. Is it a perfect world? Hmmm....



Peter Wiley wrote:
By Donal's logic, there isn't a safe speed. Given that the
time/distance taken for a tanker to stop/turn vastly exceeds the
distance a human can see in thick fog, a tanker is always at risk of
running over a kayaker insisting on being the stand-on vessel and
therefore cannot navigate safely.

So, yeah, Donal's basically arguing that shipping has to come to a
standstill if the lookout can't *see* further than it takes the ship to
stop or change course, because a kayak couldn't be reliably detected by
radar. Nice thought, pity about its practicality.

And it would run the price of gas up when the refineries couldn't get deliveries
on time.

I have to disagree with Rick's post above, a kayaker has little business in the
shipping lanes to start with. In fog? WTF??

There are plenty of places to use small recreational craft such as kayaks, sailing
dinks, etc etc, without getting in the way of shipping. In theory, one might have
'every right' to do so. But in theory, you have the right to play tiddleywinks on
the interstate. Try it some time.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
...
....
I have to disagree with Rick's post above, a kayaker has little business in
the
shipping lanes to start with. In fog? WTF??

There are plenty of places to use small recreational craft such as kayaks,
sailing
dinks, etc etc, without getting in the way of shipping. In theory, one might
have
'every right' to do so. But in theory, you have the right to play tiddleywinks
on
the interstate. Try it some time.


I'm glad there are a few who agree with me. I believe Rick is thinking that
when I said kayaks don't belong there I was claiming that large vessels have a
right to run them down. I was never trying to imply that. In fact, my real pet
peeve is the sportfishermen that think because a ferry (with high quality radar
and a trained crew) can safely do 8 knots on a well known route, they are free
do 35 knots in the fog.

Aside from the foolishness of taking a small boat in a traffic in the fog, the
ColRegs are quite specific, in Rules 9 and 10, that they don't belong is some
places when they are unable to see or be seen by other vessels.

Further, I claim that Rule 2 also frowns on foolish behavior. In very simple
wording it requires everyone act in a seamanlike manner. This would include
staying out of the way of large ships, and also maintaining a extra slow speed
where small boats would frequent.

If you cruise in coastal Maine, you will frequently see sea kayaks with radar
reflectors on the stern, often on a short pole. However, the consensus is that
this is only partially effective - its worth doing for the times it helps, but
it isn't reliable enough to make it safe in channels. Fortunately, they
normally stay close to shore.