"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...

Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?


Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules
for
the avoidance of Collisions??

on a dark night can you walk to your bathroom without smaking into
the walls?

Usually ..... [not always ... though].

I've never ****&d into the wardrobe (yet).

Well maybe I mean most normal people have a memory that they use to
their advantage, I can see how this will not apply to you.

Ahaaaa! Are you claiming that you can *remember* where the small boats
were? Is that why you don't need to keep a lookout?





I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can
help
you avoid a collision.

I know you cant, thats because your always lost.

Now, now, Joe! Your neck is displaying its colour again!







I've done it a
thousand times. Nothing to it. If it's fog bound in an area I'm not
familiar with I usually wait and follow someone that knows the area.

Jeeeze! I'm only an amateur, but one of my basic rules is "NEVER
Follow
Anybody" - they might be as lost as you are!

Thats because you are an amateur, you not smart enough to figure out
if someone in front of you runs aground that not the best way to go.

No, Joe! That's because I have seen what happens when people follow
locals.




I think you missed the point of talking to everyone you meet on the
radio. If you do that you might be able to figure out that they know
the local area better than you do. But since you never go anywhere new
to you,

ahem I think that your [red] neck is showing again!

I have posted many accounts of *new* experiences here over the past few
years.

I guess this is a experience you will never have to do in real
life.

Don't guess. You aren't very good at guessing.

And yet you claim that you are happy to follow somebody else when you
are in
unfamiliar waters??? (See above).
Following people who "know the area" is the best way of running aground
that
I have come across.


Read the above. Locals are one of your best sources of recent
knowledge.

Joe, are you rreally stupid enough to believe that locals can relieve you of
your duty to keep a lookout in thick fog?



Back in Mark Twains day on the mississippi they use to tie
wooden Kegs or barrels at diffrent areas of the river. Inside these
barrels the skippers would leave notes to each other about shifting
sand bars, snags, currents and anything that has changed locally.


We are talking about keeping a lookout for other vessels! Even in Mark
Twain's day, people weren't stupid enough to document the positions of small
vessels in small wooden kegs.


Today we have what is called the LOCAL notice to mariners that is
compiled mostly by LOCALS that see things that change from what
printed on charts. Perhaps your to macho to talk to a local and ask
for quideance, Im not.

Local notices to Mariners would be effin clever if they were able to tell
you where small craft were sailing.

We're talking about "keeping a lookout" in this thread.




Joe,
You are a menace! It is obvious that you shouldn't be allowed to sail
anywhere.

Donal your a idiot with very limited knowledge of how to go anywhere
except on a crystal clear day with up to date charts and channels that
are very well marked. Its odvious you would be laughed off any
proffesional fleet.

I have several million miles under my belt on all types of keels, and
you?

I dunno! About 15,000, I guess.

Perhaps I learn as much in one mile, as you do in 1000 miles.


Regards


Donal
--

"Donal"

Let me see if I can splain this to ya Lanod were you might understand.

Look at the back of your hand. Do you know what it looks like?
Now take a red marker and put a dot on the back of your hand.
Now if you look at your hand again and there is a red dot on it will
you know that the back of your hand looks diffrent?

Same as a radar picture of a familiar channel, river, ect... that has
a new red dot on it, you can assume that is something like a boat in
the fog so you try to talk to them and make passing agreements, if
they do not talk you creep up and very carefully go around them.

Now if you see Capt Neals hand and it has a dot on the back are you
going to know if it was there before? Now if you do not ask him you
will never know.

Same thing you can do following a local, you can get on the radio and
ask is that dot I see on radar suppose to be there. Most likey he will
know. Thats because he has seen that picture a hundred times. He is
familiar with it and you are not. OK.....understand?

You may not understand how to maintain a proper watch by radar and
radio. But it can be done very safely, with local knowledge and an
understanding of the limits and abilitys of the tools you use.

Joe

Got to agree with Joe on this issue of remembering outlines/picking
differences. I could spot game faster than any of my friends when
hunting on my place even when they had a lot better eyesight - because
*I knew what that paddock looked like* - every stump, tree & rock. Any
new object was an animal and then it was just a matter of determining
if it could be shot or not.

PDW

In article , Joe
wrote:

"Donal"

Let me see if I can splain this to ya Lanod were you might understand.

Look at the back of your hand. Do you know what it looks like?
Now take a red marker and put a dot on the back of your hand.
Now if you look at your hand again and there is a red dot on it will
you know that the back of your hand looks diffrent?

Same as a radar picture of a familiar channel, river, ect... that has
a new red dot on it, you can assume that is something like a boat in
the fog so you try to talk to them and make passing agreements, if
they do not talk you creep up and very carefully go around them.

Now if you see Capt Neals hand and it has a dot on the back are you
going to know if it was there before? Now if you do not ask him you
will never know.

Same thing you can do following a local, you can get on the radio and
ask is that dot I see on radar suppose to be there. Most likey he will
know. Thats because he has seen that picture a hundred times. He is
familiar with it and you are not. OK.....understand?

You may not understand how to maintain a proper watch by radar and
radio. But it can be done very safely, with local knowledge and an
understanding of the limits and abilitys of the tools you use.

Joe

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Got to agree with Joe on this issue of remembering outlines/picking
differences.

I don't disagree that one can become familiar with a coastline/river from
the radar picture.

I disagree with the proposition that a Radar watch(at 25 kts) can be
considered " an effective lookout".

Most people agree that you need to post a lookout on the bow in thick fog,
and that you need to be going slowly enough to respond to a warning from the
bowman.

Regards


Donal
--

In article , Donal
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Got to agree with Joe on this issue of remembering outlines/picking
differences.

I don't disagree that one can become familiar with a coastline/river from
the radar picture.

I disagree with the proposition that a Radar watch(at 25 kts) can be
considered " an effective lookout".

I'd tend to agree with you. Mind you, radar can be *very* good. We have
2 on our icebreaker and I've steered through heavy sea ice using the
radar image to see where the leads are. Lotta fun and it doesn't really
matter if you turn a little wide or tight since it's OK to crunch over
stuff in the way.

Anyway, if damn fools are considered as worth the trouble of saving,
then running at 25 knots on radar only in heavy fog isn't prudent.
Personally, I wouldn't regard anyone stupid enough to go out onto a
busy waterway, in heavy fog, sans lights, radar reflector, radar, sound
signals, radio and in a hull that is a poor radar reflector as worth
saving. Anyone that stupid is a hazard to navigation and we're all
better off without them.

PDW

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Donal
wrote:



I disagree with the proposition that a Radar watch(at 25 kts) can be
considered " an effective lookout".

I'd tend to agree with you. Mind you, radar can be *very* good. We have
2 on our icebreaker and I've steered through heavy sea ice using the
radar image to see where the leads are. Lotta fun and it doesn't really
matter if you turn a little wide or tight since it's OK to crunch over
stuff in the way.

That situation seems quite different to doing the same thing in a busy
waterway.



Anyway, if damn fools are considered as worth the trouble of saving,
then running at 25 knots on radar only in heavy fog isn't prudent.
Personally, I wouldn't regard anyone stupid enough to go out onto a
busy waterway, in heavy fog, sans lights, radar reflector, radar, sound
signals, radio and in a hull that is a poor radar reflector as worth
saving. Anyone that stupid is a hazard to navigation and we're all
better off without them.

I don't really disagree with you.

I'm simply saying that I don't think that travelling in a busy waterway at
25 kts using radar alone is semsible - in any state of visibility.



Regards

Donal
--

I'm simply saying that I don't think that travelling in a busy waterway at
25 kts using radar alone is semsible


Semsible???? WOW!!!

Bwahahahahaa!

RB

In article , Donal
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Donal
wrote:



I disagree with the proposition that a Radar watch(at 25 kts) can be
considered " an effective lookout".

I'd tend to agree with you. Mind you, radar can be *very* good. We have
2 on our icebreaker and I've steered through heavy sea ice using the
radar image to see where the leads are. Lotta fun and it doesn't really
matter if you turn a little wide or tight since it's OK to crunch over
stuff in the way.

That situation seems quite different to doing the same thing in a busy
waterway.

I can see a chunk of ice the size of a kayak or smaller on the radar.
Ice doesn't carry radar reflectors and is only half a metre or less
above the surface. It is possible.

Anyway, if damn fools are considered as worth the trouble of saving,
then running at 25 knots on radar only in heavy fog isn't prudent.
Personally, I wouldn't regard anyone stupid enough to go out onto a
busy waterway, in heavy fog, sans lights, radar reflector, radar, sound
signals, radio and in a hull that is a poor radar reflector as worth
saving. Anyone that stupid is a hazard to navigation and we're all
better off without them.

I don't really disagree with you.

I'm simply saying that I don't think that travelling in a busy waterway at
25 kts using radar alone is semsible - in any state of visibility.

With that I agree, but it depends on the circumstances. People by &
large can ride bicycles on most roads here in Australia, and do, mixing
with traffic weighing 100X as much and moving 4X as fast. I regard this
as stupid behaviour and give them as much room as possible, but I'm not
going to travel at bicycle speeds just on the off-chance that they
might wander in front of me. Not doing stupid manoeuvres is their
responsibility, mine is to drive predictably so they can figure out
where I'm going to be. I don't see the situation on water as all that
different *if* we're talking about a busy commercial waterway. You can
argue Colregs & road rules all you like and courts may or may not
decide certain actions were imprudent but *none* of that will
invalidate the laws of kinetic energy and conservation of momentum. I
rode motorcycles for years and I can assure you that following the
rules is poor consolation when you're lying in a hospital bed after an
idiot car driver didn't.

PDW