"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?


Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules
for
the avoidance of Collisions??

I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can
help
you avoid a collision.



So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if
there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog?
Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in
its
proper place in a channel.

No! I'm claiming that "local knowledge" does not mean that you may travel
at anything more than a safe speed!

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.



The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to be a
good reflector?

Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for other
vessels?




"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!




Regards


Donal
--

"Donal" wrote in message
...
So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if
there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog?
Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in
its
proper place in a channel.

No! I'm claiming that "local knowledge" does not mean that you may travel
at anything more than a safe speed!

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules for
this. I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog, and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea kayak.

There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?





The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to be a
good reflector?

Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.



Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?




"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the world
works.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...
So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest
possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and
its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and
even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules
for
this.

What do you mean by "no fixed rules"??

AFAIK, there are very strict rules that govern the behaviour of vessels in
fog.

Are you suggesting that big ships are exempt from the Coll Regs?


I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog,

My copy of the Coll Regs does not mention the "Bar Harbour Fast Cat Ferry".
I was under the impression that the Coll Regs were more authoritive than
your local ferry's skipper.




and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea
kayak.


I don't believe that "idiocy" is an issue when trying to determine "stand
on" status. Am I wrong?



There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?

Read the Coll Regs. I believe that the issue is covered.

A row boat has the same right as an oil tanker to use the Atlantic. The
Coll Regs were designed to make it safe for both of them.









The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to
be a
good reflector?

Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman
would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.


Where can you buy one of these "stealth kayaks"?

Are you so far out on this limb that you are having to use the concept of
fictional craft to back up your position?

I haven't bothered to look at Rule 2, .... because your position seems
ludicrous. I have read the Coll Regs in the past, and I believe that each
vessel has a duty to keep an adequate lookout.


You seem to be suggesting that vessels have an obligation to be seen!!!






Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for
other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?

By travelling slowly ... and keeping a lookout. If the fog is very thick,
then the vessel travels *very* slowly.







"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels
should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an
invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge
amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the
world
works.


You raised the issue of "scanty information".

In thick fog, a skipper has scanty information.

The Coll Regs suggest that you should post a lookout, and that you should
slow down to a safe speed in fog.

Why do you have a problem with this?
It's all very simple. DO NOT travel at a speed where poor visibility
means that you cannot take the necessary avoiding action.



Regards


Donal
--

"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and
its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and
even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules
for
this.

What do you mean by "no fixed rules"??

Do the ColRegs mention a speed limit? The only say a "safe speed." It is up to
the captains, local authorities and,with hindsight, the courts, to determine
what a safe speed is in a given situation.


AFAIK, there are very strict rules that govern the behaviour of vessels in
fog.

That's the problem. You don't know, but you're assuming there are such rules.
I thought you took the YachtMaster course - what did they teach you there?


Are you suggesting that big ships are exempt from the Coll Regs?

Now you're talking like an idiot. You're assuming there are fixed speed limit
somewhere in the ColRegs, and I'm advocating ignoring them.



I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog,

My copy of the Coll Regs does not mention the "Bar Harbour Fast Cat Ferry".
I was under the impression that the Coll Regs were more authoritive than
your local ferry's skipper.


You're blithering again. Why do you claim the ferry ignores the ColRegs? I
mention this particular vessel because its speed and route has been studied
carefully. And it travels regularly in the fog.




and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea
kayak.


I don't believe that "idiocy" is an issue when trying to determine "stand
on" status. Am I wrong?


How is "standon status" involved here? Are you claiming that a kayak is
"standon" in the fog? What DO they teach you in YachtMaster class?



There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?

Read the Coll Regs. I believe that the issue is covered.

Yes it is:

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the
owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences ...
of the neglect of any precaution which
may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

This means, amongst other things, that stupid behaiviour is frowned upon.

A row boat has the same right as an oil tanker to use the Atlantic. The
Coll Regs were designed to make it safe for both of them.


Sure. If it takes the same precautions. Radar. Radar reflector. Full time
watch. Frankly, I think long distance single handers are clearly breaking the
rules.




Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman
would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.


Where can you buy one of these "stealth kayaks"?

Well, this is all a bit hypothetical. You started it questioning if the ColRegs
require a radar reflector.


Are you so far out on this limb that you are having to use the concept of
fictional craft to back up your position?

I haven't bothered to look at Rule 2, .... because your position seems
ludicrous. I have read the Coll Regs in the past, and I believe that each
vessel has a duty to keep an adequate lookout.

Jeez Donal, is this another case of "I don't know the rules but they must say
what I think is right"?



You seem to be suggesting that vessels have an obligation to be seen!!!

Well Golly! I think you're finally catching on!!! The court's have ruled over
and over again that a vessel forfeits its rights (I know this isn't the right
way to say this) if it doesn't show proper lights, or sound the proper signals.
They have also held that its OK travel at some speed if a proper radar watch is
maintained. They have also held that vessels shouldn't leave dock, or cross
channels if they don't have radar. Frankly, I don't know of a case where
someone was held at fault for not having a reflector, but perhaps no one has
been dumb enough to do it; or never got very far in a law suit.









Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for
other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?

By travelling slowly ... and keeping a lookout. If the fog is very thick,
then the vessel travels *very* slowly.


You mean like not crossing a shipping lane?








"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels
should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an
invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge
amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the
world
works.


You raised the issue of "scanty information".

In thick fog, a skipper has scanty information.

The Coll Regs suggest that you should post a lookout, and that you should
slow down to a safe speed in fog.

Why do you have a problem with this?
It's all very simple. DO NOT travel at a speed where poor visibility
means that you cannot take the necessary avoiding action.

I never said you shouldn't have a lookout. I've only claiming that radar
permits a vessels to maintain a higher speed. And that it is accepted practice
to do this in certain locals. And that vessels that are poor radar targets
should avoid these locals.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
"Donal" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations,
and
its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog
(and
even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed
rules
for
this.

What do you mean by "no fixed rules"??

Do the ColRegs mention a speed limit? The only say a "safe speed." It is
up to
the captains, local authorities and,with hindsight, the courts, to
determine
what a safe speed is in a given situation.


25kts in fog without a proper lookout is safe?




AFAIK, there are very strict rules that govern the behaviour of vessels
in
fog.

That's the problem. You don't know, but you're assuming there are such
rules.
I thought you took the YachtMaster course - what did they teach you there?

That 25 kts in fog wasn't safe unless you were able to avoid any vessel that
you were likely to meet.

What did they teach you?




Are you suggesting that big ships are exempt from the Coll Regs?

Now you're talking like an idiot. You're assuming there are fixed speed
limit
somewhere in the ColRegs, and I'm advocating ignoring them.

25kts in fog without a proper lookout is safe?






I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog,

My copy of the Coll Regs does not mention the "Bar Harbour Fast Cat
Ferry".
I was under the impression that the Coll Regs were more authoritive than
your local ferry's skipper.


You're blithering again. Why do you claim the ferry ignores the ColRegs?
I
mention this particular vessel because its speed and route has been
studied
carefully. And it travels regularly in the fog.

No, I am telling you that I don't give a sh%t about the conduct of your "Bar
Harbour Fast Cat Ferry". I prefer to rely on the CollRegs.







and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea
kayak.


I don't believe that "idiocy" is an issue when trying to determine
"stand
on" status. Am I wrong?


How is "standon status" involved here? Are you claiming that a kayak is
"standon" in the fog? What DO they teach you in YachtMaster class?

Read the CollRegs. There is nothing that says that a kayak should not
cross a TSS. There is at least one rule that says that all vessels must
travel at an appropriate speed *and* keep a proper lookout.






There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across
the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?

Read the Coll Regs. I believe that the issue is covered.

Yes it is:

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the
owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences ...
of the neglect of any precaution which
may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special
circumstances of the case.

This means, amongst other things, that stupid behaiviour is frowned upon.

It also means that you are attempting to place your own personal
interpretation of the rules above the actual wording of the rules.

Let's look at Rule 5 again.
=================================
Rule 5

Look-out

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and
hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing
circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation
and of the risk of collision.
=================================


What part of the above Rule do you not understand? Is the word "Every"
confusing you? Perhaps you think that "Every" actually means "Some"???

Maybe the bit where it say "at all times" is not very clear to you.

Is it possible that you think that "sight and hearing" actually means
"Radar"?

I could go on with this analysis, but neither of us would enjoy it.





A row boat has the same right as an oil tanker to use the Atlantic. The
Coll Regs were designed to make it safe for both of them.


Sure. If it takes the same precautions. Radar. Radar reflector. Full
time
watch. Frankly, I think long distance single handers are clearly breaking
the
rules.

That is a seperate discussion.







Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every
seaman
would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth
kayak.


Where can you buy one of these "stealth kayaks"?

Well, this is all a bit hypothetical. You started it questioning if the
ColRegs
require a radar reflector.

Actually, I started it by saying that travelling at 25 kts, in fog, without
any lookout other than a Radar watch, was in contravention of the rules.
You instantly grabbed the end of the stick that was clearly labelled "Wrong
end" and tried to beat me with it. You also made the incorrect assumption
that I have little regard for the CollRegs. You compounded that error by
assuming that I had not studied the CollRegs, and passed an examination.
Finally, you made the greatest error of all. You assumed that my modesty
about my knowledge of the CollRegs meant that I don't take them seriously.











Are you so far out on this limb that you are having to use the concept
of
fictional craft to back up your position?

I haven't bothered to look at Rule 2, .... because your position seems
ludicrous. I have read the Coll Regs in the past, and I believe that
each
vessel has a duty to keep an adequate lookout.

Jeez Donal, is this another case of "I don't know the rules but they must
say
what I think is right"?

No, Jeff. It is another case of "You are so far off base that I can't be
bothered to get the CollRegs out."







You seem to be suggesting that vessels have an obligation to be seen!!!

Well Golly! I think you're finally catching on!!! The court's have
ruled over
and over again that a vessel forfeits its rights (I know this isn't the
right
way to say this) if it doesn't show proper lights, or sound the proper
signals.

I agree. However, a kayak does NOT have to show any lights in daylight
fog. Nobody has suggested in this thread that the kayak was not making
sound signals.


They have also held that its OK travel at some speed if a proper radar
watch is
maintained.

Are you saying that the courts have overturned the CollRegs??
I would be very interested to see a reference of some sort. Can you
provide any evidence to back this up?


They have also held that vessels shouldn't leave dock, or cross
channels if they don't have radar.

Good Grief! I wouldn't like to suggest that you were being enonomical
with the truth, but could you tell us more about this?

Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?

By travelling slowly ... and keeping a lookout. If the fog is very
thick,
then the vessel travels *very* slowly.


You mean like not crossing a shipping lane?

The rules also apply to the vessels in the shipping lane, don't they?


Regards


Donal
--

G Interesting thread .... shame I can't totally agree and/or disagree,
with anyone.
There are some boats with some operators, under some conditions where I
would consider 25k, in fog, reasonable and safe. There are some boats
with some operators, under some conditions where I would consider 25k,
in fog, unsafe .... etc.
Simply because someone is running in fog, on radar, does not mean they
don't have a lookout.
Safe speed can be 25k, one minute, and 0 k, the next .... most high
speed ferries can stop in their own length .... so forth and so
on....... Rule 2 applies to all at all times, under all conditions.

G

otn

You might not agree with all I've said, but I think I can agree (as usual) with
what you've said.

I'm curious: I've claimed at times that Rule 2 has some very deep implications
that require reasonable behavior. In particular, if 99% of "seamen" consider
some practice foolish, it probably violates rule 2. If they consider it
reasonable, it is probably "legal" under rule 2. In this case I might apply
this concept to rowboats in shipping lanes in the fog. How do you feel about
this? Am I stretching it, or is this an appropriate use of rule 2?


"otnmbrd" wrote in message
news
G Interesting thread .... shame I can't totally agree and/or disagree,
with anyone.
There are some boats with some operators, under some conditions where I
would consider 25k, in fog, reasonable and safe. There are some boats
with some operators, under some conditions where I would consider 25k,
in fog, unsafe .... etc.
Simply because someone is running in fog, on radar, does not mean they
don't have a lookout.
Safe speed can be 25k, one minute, and 0 k, the next .... most high
speed ferries can stop in their own length .... so forth and so
on....... Rule 2 applies to all at all times, under all conditions.

G

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
You might not agree with all I've said, but I think I can agree (as usual) with
what you've said.

I'm curious: I've claimed at times that Rule 2 has some very deep implications
that require reasonable behavior. In particular, if 99% of "seamen" consider
some practice foolish, it probably violates rule 2. If they consider it
reasonable, it is probably "legal" under rule 2. In this case I might apply
this concept to rowboats in shipping lanes in the fog. How do you feel about
this? Am I stretching it, or is this an appropriate use of rule 2?

I don't think you're stretching it at all. Personally, I wouldn't care
if it's foggy or clear, I would consider it prudent for a rowboat/kayak
to avoid a TSS and as many shipping lanes, as possible, at all times, on
the basis of rule 2.
However, I don't think I would employ "shall not impede" in a fog situation.

otn