Joe wrote:

In a storm would you, if you had a ketch:

1. reef down the main and mizzen, drop the jib.
2. use just a tri sail on the main mast.
3. use a storm jib and a reefed mizzen.
4. just use a storm jib.
5. Use just a reefed main
6. Use a reefed main and a storm jib.

Depends on the rig, depends on the conditions. Usually a mizzen that is
made for everyday sailing is not going to be tough enough to stand up to
use as a storm sail, reefed & used together with a jib.

But, being able to drop the main and sail under jib & mizzen as wind
increases is a good characteristic. Not all ketches will do it well.





And why is a tri sail track offset on the main mast?

Is it just because you can raise the sail fast without un-bending the
main, or does it have something to do with shape.

So that you can bend on the trysail before the storm, and keep sailing
with the regular main until you need to douse it. In storm conditions,
trying to unbend the mainsail and thread in the trysail is going to lead
to loss of crew or loss of sail at least.




How much, if any foil shape should a tri sail have?

Very little. It does need some camber, but not much. Probably a web site
that says, but I'd guess less than 10%, possibly around 5%.



And how do you best figure what size tri sail you should use?

Scaled to the boats displacement, righting moment, & lateral area.



And with a quick double reefing system, do you think a tri sail is
needed?

Yes. The trysail, or storm staysail, is for conditions that are worse than
you want your regular sails flying in.

Once I experimented with using a small boat's jib as a storm staysail. It
set nicely and was about the right area (60 SqFt on a 30' keel boat) but
shredded after about an hour in 40 ~ 50 knot winds.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Can you give an example?

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

Not all ketches will do it well.

DSK wrote:
Not all ketches will do it well.


The navigator© wrote:
Can you give an example?

Sure.... any ketch that doesn't balance well under
jib & mizzen. It doesn't happen automagically,
y'know.

I can't say firsthand, but I suspect that Mari-Cha
4 doesn't balance at all under jib & mizzen. So
there!

DSK

Why do you say that? I'd say the foretriangle matches the mizzen quite
well. If the C of E of the main matches the CLR (as it should for a
balanced ketch) then she will balance under miz and foresail.

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

DSK wrote:
Not all ketches will do it well.


The navigator© wrote:
Can you give an example?


Sure.... any ketch that doesn't balance well under
jib & mizzen. It doesn't happen automagically,
y'know.

I can't say firsthand, but I suspect that Mari-Cha
4 doesn't balance at all under jib & mizzen. So
there!

DSK

The navigator© wrote:

Why do you say that? I'd say the foretriangle matches the mizzen quite
well.

Lots of forces in play here, Navvie©. The horizontal distance (in two axis
as the boat heels) between the sails CE and the boat's CLR, the torque
developed by the hull & foils, etc etc.

If you're talking about Mari-Cha 4, it looks to me that the mizzen is far
bigger than the foretriangle.

If the C of E of the main matches the CLR (as it should for a
balanced ketch) then she will balance under miz and foresail.

Sure.

"In theory there's no difference between practice & theory. But in
practice, there is."

Not all ketches balance the way they should. Possibly due to different
priorities on the part of the designer, possibly by error, whatever.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Yes, the miz is bigger but the moments look similar -right?

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:


Why do you say that? I'd say the foretriangle matches the mizzen quite
well.


Lots of forces in play here, Navvie©. The horizontal distance (in two axis
as the boat heels) between the sails CE and the boat's CLR, the torque
developed by the hull & foils, etc etc.

If you're talking about Mari-Cha 4, it looks to me that the mizzen is far
bigger than the foretriangle.


If the C of E of the main matches the CLR (as it should for a
balanced ketch) then she will balance under miz and foresail.


Sure.

"In theory there's no difference between practice & theory. But in
practice, there is."

Not all ketches balance the way they should. Possibly due to different
priorities on the part of the designer, possibly by error, whatever.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The navigator© wrote:

Yes, the miz is bigger but the moments look similar -right?

Doesn't look anywhere close to my eye, but they could be anyway.

Obviously a lot of very careful engineering went into this boat. The question
is, is balance under jib & mizzen on the list of design priorities, and how well
did they achieve it?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I'm far from being a Ketch Expert but it does seem to me that I've seen
more reduced sails on Ketches with reefed Main and doused Miz

The forsail and mizzen are more a Yawl set-up

For what it's worth (Not much) that seems to be the way I've seen it

OT

(Thom Stewart) wrote in message ...
I'm far from being a Ketch Expert but it does seem to me that I've seen
more reduced sails on Ketches with reefed Main and doused Miz


Thats the way I go down wind in a serious blow, The mizzen up makes
you work your ass off on the wheel, if you move the load forward it
reduces the zig zagging.




The forsail and mizzen are more a Yawl set-up


Thats my favorate on a lazy summer night sipping martinies at 10 to 20
knots, Jib & Jigger with shrimp on the barby. Went out last week and
set a course across the bay on a close reach with a 100% jib and
mizzen, thought I engaged the autopilot and sailed on course for about
2 hours before we needed to tack. Then-- when I went to tack and dis-
engage the auto pilot I found out I never engaged it. Perfect
balance.




For what it's worth (Not much) that seems to be the way I've seen it

OT


When Thom talks sails..... I listen.

Joe

Joe,

Since I've spilled my guts about storm sailing, I'll say some more about
my lack of knowledge.

I learned that to weather a storm you really only get one good choice to
set-up before you're hit (I mean by a real blow; 50 and above) Don't go
half ass and figure you'll change if you have to. When you get hit,
YOU"LL BE DAMN LUCKY TO MOVE YOUR SILLY ASS AROUND. BREATHING AND
STAYING ABOARD WILL BE THE MAIN CONCERN. Guess right. Try to come up
with something that doesn't need to be tended to. It is more likely
you'll give out before your vessel does so give your boat a chance.

Good luck!!

At 77 yrs I don't venture on open water anymore. (Chicken) but even
inshore I keep my foul weather sailing as simple as possible. The
simplist is in the slip double tied, the next best is anchored in a cove
and battened down. If I can't use those first two, then I'll do what
ever is neccessary to get to a position to set up the first two
condition. I DON'T WANT TO STORM SAIL!

AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!"

Ole Thom