Ferry Speeds
 

9-16 knots = Slow moving passenger Ferry
17-24 knots = Standard
26-49 knots = High Speed
50 and up = Ultra High Speed

I found this with ease and it's in the 2004 expanded Chapmans.

Sorry, Billy!

RB

Ferry Speeds
 

I found this with ease and it's in the 2004 expanded Chapmans.

Sorry, Billy!


Glad you were finally able to figure it out. Apology accepted!

Sorry, Billy...I made it up!!!
Shhhhaaaawinggggg!!!

Bwahahahaaha!

RB

Ferry Speeds
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...

Sorry, Billy!

I find it very gratifying to see a liar apologise. Well done, Bob. There
is hope for you yet!



Regards


Donal
--

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: (Bobsprit)
Date: 11/18/2003 12:51 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


9-16 knots = Slow moving passenger Ferry
17-24 knots = Standard
26-49 knots = High Speed
50 and up = Ultra High Speed


Damn, my ferry used ta do 25k .... guess I was a "high standard, slow, high
speed" ferry.

EG talk about stupid arguments.....
Actually, Boobsprit was correct on one issue. You can expect ferries to be in
"lanes" (his term, not mine), but, be anywhere, with heavy traffic, shoal
waters, and zero visibility, once, and tell me you'll think you don't need, or
at least, didn't wish you had, radar.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Other traffic should not need radar if only the
ferry operator would follow the COLREGS and
proceed at a safe speed and slow to a stop if
necessary to avoid a collision.

Instead, ferry operators think they can just
go about their merry way at speeds too high
for the visibility. Rather than abiding by the
COLREGS you operators flaunt the Rules and
cause accidents.

S.Simon

"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: (Bobsprit)
Date: 11/18/2003 12:51 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


9-16 knots = Slow moving passenger Ferry
17-24 knots = Standard
26-49 knots = High Speed
50 and up = Ultra High Speed


Damn, my ferry used ta do 25k .... guess I was a "high standard, slow, high
speed" ferry.

EG talk about stupid arguments.....
Actually, Boobsprit was correct on one issue. You can expect ferries to be in
"lanes" (his term, not mine), but, be anywhere, with heavy traffic, shoal
waters, and zero visibility, once, and tell me you'll think you don't need, or
at least, didn't wish you had, radar.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"


Other traffic should not need radar if only the
ferry operator would follow the COLREGS and
proceed at a safe speed and slow to a stop if
necessary to avoid a collision.

Typical stupid statement from the "simpleton".
A. You only THINK you know something about radar.....you don't.
B. You only THINK you know something about how ferries operate.....you don't.
C. You only THINK you know and understand the rules.....you don't.
D. You only THINK you have enough time out underway on the water to be able to
discuss the subject intelligently......you don't.

Instead, ferry operators think they can just
go about their merry way at speeds too high
for the visibility. Rather than abiding by the
COLREGS you operators flaunt the Rules and
cause accidents.

S.Simon

BG You wouldn't know a ferry, if you saw one ..... come back and talk when
you get some experience that includes something besides sitting at anchor in
Tampa Bay.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed schedule and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule. Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out of there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their job. It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when backing out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic they are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the ferry. In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway system. All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from England to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

Comments debunking Capt. Shenandoah interspersed.


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Typical stupid statement from the "simpleton".
A. You only THINK you know something about radar.....you don't.

One does not need to know anything about the technical aspects
of radar to understand how the COLREGS apply to the use of radar.

B. You only THINK you know something about how ferries operate.....you don't.

One need not know how ferries operate in order to understand their
obligations under the Rules.

C. You only THINK you know and understand the rules.....you don't.

I have proven time and time again that I understand the COLREGS
better than all you tugboat captains put together. If I don't understand
them then the lot of you don't even know they exist.

D. You only THINK you have enough time out underway on the water to be able to
discuss the subject intelligently......you don't.

Unlike you and the other tugboat captains, I have spent more
time on the water in the past ten years than any of you and
probably more than any two of you put together. I have seen,
firsthand, how most motor boat professional captains are rude,
and abusive of the pecking order Rules. In their minds it's
always a matter of might making right and commercial interests
over pleasure craft. Their minds are warped and bitter that
they are almost at the very bottom of the pecking order and
must give way to vessels they honestly feel are inferior to
their glorified trucks ( bulk carriers, freighters, etc.) or
oversized busses (ferries, cruise ships, etc.).

S.Simon

Ferry Speeds
 

The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.

As far as the COLREGS go, ferries are motor vessels and must
adhere to the Rules pertaining to motor vessels. This means
they are the give-way in many situations whether you or
they care to believe it. Their schedule and the number of
people they carry has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact
they are bound by the Rules to proceed in a certain manner
when interacting with other vessels. They can carry a billion
people all needing to get somewhere on time and that does
not relieve them of their legal obligation to give way to a
sailboat underway under sail.

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message ...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed schedule and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule. Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out of there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their job. It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when backing out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic they are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the ferry. In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway system. All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from England to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:50:50 -0500, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

One need not know how ferries operate in order to understand their
obligations under the Rules.

Spoken like an amateur of the most dangerous sort.

I have proven time and time again that I understand the COLREGS
better than all you tugboat captains put together.

You have proven a great deal here, Nil. However, very little of that
had anything to do with seafaring.

Unlike you and the other tugboat captains, I have spent more
time on the water in the past ten years than any of you and
probably more than any two of you put together.

Sleeping on a park bench does not make you a park ranger.

... warped and bitter that they are almost at
the very bottom of the pecking order ...

A little moment of introspection there, Nil?

How's the renewal coming along? Your friends in the White House
keeping the CG hustling for you?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Rick

Ferry Speeds
 

In the SF bay, ferries do not have any restriction on manueverability,
except near their landings. They are required to get out of our way
in the middle of the bay, and we regularly enforce the rules, which
they know quite well and always follow. Of course, we don't
deliberately put ourselves in their path, but neither do we shy
away from sailing where we want to sail because a ferry might
be going in that direction.

"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed schedule
and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule. Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out of
there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their job.
It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when backing
out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic they
are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the ferry.
In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway system. All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from England to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

Correct.

There is the principle of courtesy, which all should follow however.
We do and they do.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.

As far as the COLREGS go, ferries are motor vessels and must
adhere to the Rules pertaining to motor vessels. This means
they are the give-way in many situations whether you or
they care to believe it. Their schedule and the number of
people they carry has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact
they are bound by the Rules to proceed in a certain manner
when interacting with other vessels. They can carry a billion
people all needing to get somewhere on time and that does
not relieve them of their legal obligation to give way to a
sailboat underway under sail.

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed schedule
and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule.
Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out of
there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their job.
It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when backing
out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic they
are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the ferry.
In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway system.
All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from England
to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad
ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

"Rick" wrote in message ...
How's the renewal coming along? Your friends in the White House
keeping the CG hustling for you?


It's only been a week. I expect it'll take a month to six
weeks for them to send me an updated license. In the
meantime, they give you a whole year's grace period so
there's no hurry.

S.Simon

Ferry Speeds
 

Wrong! Courtesy is not even mentioned in the COLREGS.

Courtesy can only legally be abided if courtesy does not
make one violate any of the Rules. The Rules tell
me I MUST hold course and speed while sailing
in a crossing situation with a ferry (not in a narrow channel)
and they tell a ferry that as a motor vessel she must give
way to a sailboat. The only situation where this does not
apply is in narrow channels or if the sailboat is overtaking
the ferry.

S.Simon


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Correct.

There is the principle of courtesy, which all should follow however.
We do and they do.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.

As far as the COLREGS go, ferries are motor vessels and must
adhere to the Rules pertaining to motor vessels. This means
they are the give-way in many situations whether you or
they care to believe it. Their schedule and the number of
people they carry has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact
they are bound by the Rules to proceed in a certain manner
when interacting with other vessels. They can carry a billion
people all needing to get somewhere on time and that does
not relieve them of their legal obligation to give way to a
sailboat underway under sail.

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed schedule
and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule.
Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out of
there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their job.
It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when backing
out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic they
are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the ferry.
In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway system.
All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from England
to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad
ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:26:48 -0500, "Simple Simon"
wrote:


... they give you a whole year's grace period so there's no hurry.

Since it is not mentioned in the COLREGS you may not be aware that you
cannot use the license during the grace period.

But it's not like you will make any less money with it anyway.

Rick

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 11/19/2003 16:57 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.


This is a prime example of why we say you don't know and/or understand the
"Rules".

Read Rule 2, "Simpleton".....try to understand it !!!

As for the rest of your comments ....true.....hey, even a "simpleton" can get
some things right.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

ubject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 11/19/2003 17:31 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Wrong! Courtesy is not even mentioned in the COLREGS.

Courtesy can only legally be abided if courtesy does not
make one violate any of the Rules. The Rules tell
me I MUST hold course and speed while sailing
in a crossing situation with a ferry (not in a narrow channel)
and they tell a ferry that as a motor vessel she must give
way to a sailboat. The only situation where this does not
apply is in narrow channels or if the sailboat is overtaking
the ferry.

S.Simon


Typically, your lack of in depth knowledge of the Rules, precludes you from
understanding and mentioning VTS schemes and how they would/could effect your
actions.
Also, quite typically, you are unable to understand, and apply any form of
courtesy, to any vessel, except your own .... a prime indication of your total
lack of knowledge and experience, underway, when encountering vessel traffic,
which may indicate a need for you to employ "good seamanship", etc.
As per usual, Simpleton, you are showing yourself to be a "phony troll
wannabe".

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 11/19/2003 16:57 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.


This is a prime example of why we say you don't know and/or understand the
"Rules".

Read Rule 2, "Simpleton".....try to understand it !!!


Here is Rule 2 verbatim:

Rule 2
Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect
to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the
special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any
special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to
avoid immediate danger.

I've read it dozens of times and have yet to see occur the word,
"common sense".

S.Simon

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 11/19/2003 17:17 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In the SF bay, ferries do not have any restriction on manueverability,
except near their landings. They are required to get out of our way
in the middle of the bay, and we regularly enforce the rules, which
they know quite well and always follow. Of course, we don't
deliberately put ourselves in their path, but neither do we shy
away from sailing where we want to sail because a ferry might
be going in that direction.

BG This applies to ship traffic also ..... but, ...... EG

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

It's not my fault if the authorities are slow to
process the renewal. My license remains valid
until revoked. When the license renewal is processed
and returned to me the date of issue of the new license
will be the date of expiration of the old one. This
means My license never expired and I can legally
operate under the old one with while the paper
work is being processed.

S.Simon


"Rick" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:26:48 -0500, "Simple Simon"
wrote:


... they give you a whole year's grace period so there's no hurry.

Since it is not mentioned in the COLREGS you may not be aware that you
cannot use the license during the grace period.

But it's not like you will make any less money with it anyway.

Rick

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"

Comments debunking Capt. Shenandoah interspersed.

Comments debunking the "simpleton" interspersed:


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Typical stupid statement from the "simpleton".
A. You only THINK you know something about radar.....you don't.

One does not need to know anything about the technical aspects
of radar to understand how the COLREGS apply to the use of radar.

Then stick solely to the aspects of radar, which concern COLREGS .... then try
to understand what COLREGS is saying about Radar....obviously, you know
neither.

B. You only THINK you know something about how ferries operate.....you
don't.

One need not know how ferries operate in order to understand their
obligations under the Rules.

This is a typical statement from an inexperienced amateur. The more you know
about ANY type of vessel, the better you will be, at handling any situation
which may arise, regarding that vessel. In your case, you're to inexperienced
to realize that the most important rule, is rule 2, and you must take all the
rules, PLUS, what the vessels are, into consideration, when applying the rules
"It's not just the rules.... it's the situation"

C. You only THINK you know and understand the rules.....you don't.

I have proven time and time again that I understand the COLREGS
better than all you tugboat captains put together. If I don't understand
them then the lot of you don't even know they exist.

You have proven time and time again, that you know some of the wording of the
Rules, but little of the intent. You have shown that you are a simple beginner
with minimal experience and understanding ..... a phony troll.... you get no
respect and deserve less. You remind me of the guy on NYPD Blue, who was caught
impersonating a police officer.... you try to impersonate a Maritime
professional, with a license.....and fail miserably.

D. You only THINK you have enough time out underway on the water to be able
to
discuss the subject intelligently......you don't.

Unlike you and the other tugboat captains, I have spent more
time on the water in the past ten years than any of you and
probably more than any two of you put together.

You total stupid idiot!!
You could go sailing every day of the remainder of your life, and never
approach ANYTHING, near the time I'd spent at sea, 30 years ago !! .... much
less, what I spend, nowadays..... but the biggest difference is, you're too
stupid to realize you're still learning, whereas I will continue to learn.

I have seen,
firsthand, how most motor boat professional captains are rude,
and abusive of the pecking order Rules.

BS You don't spend enough time underway to have seen ANYTHING!!!

In their minds it's
always a matter of might making right and commercial interests
over pleasure craft. Their minds are warped and bitter that
they are almost at the very bottom of the pecking order and
must give way to vessels they honestly feel are inferior to
their glorified trucks ( bulk carriers, freighters, etc.) or
oversized busses (ferries, cruise ships, etc.).

S.Simon


ROFLMAO Simpleton, you're a rank (and I do mean RANK) amateur, who lives aboard
his boat, permanently anchored out of harms way..... come back and talk when
you learn to walk ..... your still crawling on yer belly

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

take a month to six
weeks for them to send me an updated license. In the
meantime, they give you a whole year's grace period so
there's no hurry.

S.S

Doesn't matter, since you don't use it anyway....will take 1-2 months, I
betcha.....and even then, all you'll have is a phony piece of paper which shows
nothing about your real qualification......zero !!

Ferry Speeds
 

God, you're stupid, have a short attention span and can't be bothered
to do some basic research before rabbiting on in your ignorance. Not so
long ago we discussed this very issue. Local rules can & do override
the general COLREG rules. In Sydney Harbour, ferries do *not* have to
give way to sailboats. Period. I'd suspect the same situation applies
to most ferries running on regular routes. Your "only situation" as
below is a figment of your limited imagination.

Peter Wiley

In article , Simple Simon
wrote:

Wrong! Courtesy is not even mentioned in the COLREGS.

Courtesy can only legally be abided if courtesy does not
make one violate any of the Rules. The Rules tell
me I MUST hold course and speed while sailing
in a crossing situation with a ferry (not in a narrow channel)
and they tell a ferry that as a motor vessel she must give
way to a sailboat. The only situation where this does not
apply is in narrow channels or if the sailboat is overtaking
the ferry.

S.Simon


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Correct.

There is the principle of courtesy, which all should follow however.
We do and they do.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.

As far as the COLREGS go, ferries are motor vessels and must
adhere to the Rules pertaining to motor vessels. This means
they are the give-way in many situations whether you or
they care to believe it. Their schedule and the number of
people they carry has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact
they are bound by the Rules to proceed in a certain manner
when interacting with other vessels. They can carry a billion
people all needing to get somewhere on time and that does
not relieve them of their legal obligation to give way to a
sailboat underway under sail.

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed schedule
and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule.
Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out of
there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their job.
It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when backing
out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic they
are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the ferry.
In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway system.
All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from England
to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad
ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:06:38 -0500, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

I My license remains valid until revoked.

If you really have a licence you can look on the lower right hand
corner and it will state very clearly when it expires. On that date
that piece of paper is just another piece of trash cluttering your
derelict.

What you believe is irrelevant as usual.

RIck

Ferry Speeds
 

Because of a little organization called the IRS I
will NOT claim I made almost ten grand last year
using my licenses.

I wonder if you can claim the same or more???

S.Simon


"Shen44" wrote in message ...
Doesn't matter, since you don't use it anyway....will take 1-2 months, I
betcha.....and even then, all you'll have is a phony piece of paper which shows
nothing about your real qualification......zero !!

Ferry Speeds
 

You're the one who's not too bright.

I guess you never read the following Rule.

Rule 1 (b) Nothing in these Rules shall interfere in the operation of special rules made by an appropriate authority for roadsteads,
harbors, rivers, lakes or inland waterways connected with the high seas and navigable by seagoing vessels. Such special rules shall
conform as closely as possible to these Rules.

Any harbor rule that NEGATES the general sailing Rules does not conform
as closely as possible to the Rules will be deemed illegal in a court of law.

Sorry, but that's the way it goes . . . A cable ferry is one thing but a
ferry that is not a RAM must obey the general sailing Rules which means
pecking order applies.

S.Simon


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . ..
God, you're stupid, have a short attention span and can't be bothered
to do some basic research before rabbiting on in your ignorance. Not so
long ago we discussed this very issue. Local rules can & do override
the general COLREG rules. In Sydney Harbour, ferries do *not* have to
give way to sailboats. Period. I'd suspect the same situation applies
to most ferries running on regular routes. Your "only situation" as
below is a figment of your limited imagination.

Peter Wiley

In article , Simple Simon
wrote:

Wrong! Courtesy is not even mentioned in the COLREGS.

Courtesy can only legally be abided if courtesy does not
make one violate any of the Rules. The Rules tell
me I MUST hold course and speed while sailing
in a crossing situation with a ferry (not in a narrow channel)
and they tell a ferry that as a motor vessel she must give
way to a sailboat. The only situation where this does not
apply is in narrow channels or if the sailboat is overtaking
the ferry.

S.Simon


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Correct.

There is the principle of courtesy, which all should follow however.
We do and they do.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.

As far as the COLREGS go, ferries are motor vessels and must
adhere to the Rules pertaining to motor vessels. This means
they are the give-way in many situations whether you or
they care to believe it. Their schedule and the number of
people they carry has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact
they are bound by the Rules to proceed in a certain manner
when interacting with other vessels. They can carry a billion
people all needing to get somewhere on time and that does
not relieve them of their legal obligation to give way to a
sailboat underway under sail.

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed schedule
and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule.
Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out of
there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their job.
It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when backing
out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic they
are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the ferry.
In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway system.
All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from England
to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad
ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:32:57 -0500, "Simple Simon"
wrote:

Because of a little organization called the IRS I
will NOT claim I made almost ten grand last year
using my licenses.

Which licenses were those, Nil? What did you do, drive a cab?
Sell popcorn on a street corner?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha ...

Got news for you peabrain, an unlimited license is worth way more than
ten grand a month you ignorant wannabe ...

Rick

Ferry Speeds
 

It doesn't have to be mentioned in the regs for it to be the
right and proper thing to do. To think otherwise, is to be
foolish. They do not tell you that you MUST hold course.
In fact, they say you MUST avoid a collision. One way to prevent
the situation where one has to take evasive action is to
act in a couteous manner.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Wrong! Courtesy is not even mentioned in the COLREGS.

Courtesy can only legally be abided if courtesy does not
make one violate any of the Rules. The Rules tell
me I MUST hold course and speed while sailing
in a crossing situation with a ferry (not in a narrow channel)
and they tell a ferry that as a motor vessel she must give
way to a sailboat. The only situation where this does not
apply is in narrow channels or if the sailboat is overtaking
the ferry.

S.Simon


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Correct.

There is the principle of courtesy, which all should follow however.
We do and they do.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.

As far as the COLREGS go, ferries are motor vessels and must
adhere to the Rules pertaining to motor vessels. This means
they are the give-way in many situations whether you or
they care to believe it. Their schedule and the number of
people they carry has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact
they are bound by the Rules to proceed in a certain manner
when interacting with other vessels. They can carry a billion
people all needing to get somewhere on time and that does
not relieve them of their legal obligation to give way to a
sailboat underway under sail.

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed
schedule
and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule.
Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out
of
there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The
Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their
job.
It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when
backing
out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic
they
are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the
ferry.
In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway
system.
All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from
England
to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across railroad
ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

Not in the US. I know this applies in Syndey harbor, but not
in the SF bay. Ferries have lower status on the open bay.

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
God, you're stupid, have a short attention span and can't be bothered
to do some basic research before rabbiting on in your ignorance. Not so
long ago we discussed this very issue. Local rules can & do override
the general COLREG rules. In Sydney Harbour, ferries do *not* have to
give way to sailboats. Period. I'd suspect the same situation applies
to most ferries running on regular routes. Your "only situation" as
below is a figment of your limited imagination.

Peter Wiley

In article , Simple Simon
wrote:

Wrong! Courtesy is not even mentioned in the COLREGS.

Courtesy can only legally be abided if courtesy does not
make one violate any of the Rules. The Rules tell
me I MUST hold course and speed while sailing
in a crossing situation with a ferry (not in a narrow channel)
and they tell a ferry that as a motor vessel she must give
way to a sailboat. The only situation where this does not
apply is in narrow channels or if the sailboat is overtaking
the ferry.

S.Simon


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Correct.

There is the principle of courtesy, which all should follow however.
We do and they do.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The COLREGS don't make any mention of 'common sense'.

As far as the COLREGS go, ferries are motor vessels and must
adhere to the Rules pertaining to motor vessels. This means
they are the give-way in many situations whether you or
they care to believe it. Their schedule and the number of
people they carry has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact
they are bound by the Rules to proceed in a certain manner
when interacting with other vessels. They can carry a billion
people all needing to get somewhere on time and that does
not relieve them of their legal obligation to give way to a
sailboat underway under sail.

S.Simon


"Schoonertrash" wrote in message
...
Ferry boats are like busses or trains. They operate on a fixed
schedule
and
many thousands of people depend on them to keep to that schedule.
Common
sense, basic politeness, if nothing else will tell you to keep out
of
there
way. And it doesn't take more than a few minutes to Steer For The
Stern
rather than the bow. If nothing else re-read Rule 2. Or better
yet
consider them Restricted In Ability to Manuever by virtue of their
job.
It
also depends on where the ferry is located and under which laws
it's
operating. In the Puget Sound and clear into Lake Washington it's
International Rules. Yet ferry's make one long horn blast when
backing
out
or departing. Why? It's common sense to warn other water traffic
they
are
about to move. Here's another difference which applies 'on' the
ferry.
In
Washington State they are considered part of the state highway
system.
All
Highway traffic rules apply to the motorist.

As for speed I took the hydrofoil to Victoria once and one from
England
to
the continent. Never again. Like roller skating across
railroad
ties.
Thumpety thumpety thumpety.

MST

Ferry Speeds
 

ect: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 11/19/2003 18:32 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Because of a little organization called the IRS I
will NOT claim I made almost ten grand last year
using my licenses.

I wonder if you can claim the same or more???

S.Simon


ROFLMAO Which week?

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

On the ocean. In the bay, shipping traffic, tankers
and the like do have stand on status and must be given
ground. I've seen a freighter change course to avoid
a sailboat on the ocean... we were the sailboat, but
we were getting ready to head up and avoid her. They
must have had the rare lookout. :-)

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 11/19/2003 17:17 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In the SF bay, ferries do not have any restriction on manueverability,
except near their landings. They are required to get out of our way
in the middle of the bay, and we regularly enforce the rules, which
they know quite well and always follow. Of course, we don't
deliberately put ourselves in their path, but neither do we shy
away from sailing where we want to sail because a ferry might
be going in that direction.

BG This applies to ship traffic also ..... but, ...... EG

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"


Here is Rule 2 verbatim:

Rule 2
Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master,
or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect
to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be
required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the
special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to
all dangers of navigation and collision and to any
special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved,
which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to
avoid immediate danger.

I've read it dozens of times and have yet to see occur the word,
"common sense".

S.Simon


Thank you, simpleton, you've once again proved my point ...... your basic
intelligence level is too low to grasp even the most simple of concepts.

I realize that the words "common sense" are not in rule 2, but I also know that
the rule is called the "rule of good seamanship" and "general prudential" rule.
Now, I know that this concept is above your intelligence level of reasoning,
but, good seamanship is all about using common sense ..... rule 2, is all about
common sense ..... anyone with a basic low intelligence level, can easily
understand, that even though Rule 2 never mentions common sense, it is one of
the prime considerations being discussed.
Sheesh, what a phony wannabe troll.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

ubject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Simple Simon"
Date: 11/19/2003 18:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

It's not my fault if the authorities are slow to
process the renewal. My license remains valid
until revoked. When the license renewal is processed
and returned to me the date of issue of the new license
will be the date of expiration of the old one. This
means My license never expired and I can legally
operate under the old one with while the paper
work is being processed.

S.Simon

Wrong again simpleton. The expiration date on your license, is the last day you
could use it.
The years grace period, only gives you time to renew, without having to retake
the license exam.
If you are using the license and it has expired, I would not hesitate to turn
you in for operating without one ... EG though I cannot for the life of me
think of what you might be doing, that would require one.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"

On the ocean. In the bay, shipping traffic, tankers
and the like do have stand on status and must be given
ground.

Not really. They do have the right to expect you not to impede their passage,
but they are not necessarily "stand on", although because they are expecting
you not to impede their passage, they will appear to act that way.

I've seen a freighter change course to avoid
a sailboat on the ocean... we were the sailboat, but
we were getting ready to head up and avoid her. They
must have had the rare lookout. :-)

Generally, the last one to see a target, among the "bridge team", is the
lookout .... took awhile to understand the why of this.
At sea, never expect a ship to maneuver for you (right or wrong).
Two main reasons:
1. In any kind of seaway, you may not be seen (right or wrong)
2. Experience has taught many that if there is a good deal of small boat
traffic around, the best bet is to claim "rule of GT" and maintain course and
speed. You might **** one or two off, but you'll generally get through without
confusing/ upsetting the many (right or wrong) If it's a single boat and they
see it, you'll frequently see them maneuver, but generally at the last moment,
because, again, experience has shown where small boats are concerned, expect
the unexpected. (Hey! Let's take a close look at the big ship!!). (right or
wrong).

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"

On the ocean. In the bay, shipping traffic, tankers
and the like do have stand on status and must be given
ground.

Not really. They do have the right to expect you not to impede their
passage,
but they are not necessarily "stand on", although because they are
expecting
you not to impede their passage, they will appear to act that way.

Not according to every single person I've ever heard speak on
the subject, including several Coasties. The tankers have stand on
status. They will not and cannot stop or maneuver much in the bay.
I don't know about expecting or not, but the CG says they have
status.


I've seen a freighter change course to avoid
a sailboat on the ocean... we were the sailboat, but
we were getting ready to head up and avoid her. They
must have had the rare lookout. :-)

Generally, the last one to see a target, among the "bridge team", is the
lookout .... took awhile to understand the why of this.
At sea, never expect a ship to maneuver for you (right or wrong).
Two main reasons:
1. In any kind of seaway, you may not be seen (right or wrong)
2. Experience has taught many that if there is a good deal of small boat
traffic around, the best bet is to claim "rule of GT" and maintain course
and
speed. You might **** one or two off, but you'll generally get through
without
confusing/ upsetting the many (right or wrong) If it's a single boat and
they
see it, you'll frequently see them maneuver, but generally at the last
moment,
because, again, experience has shown where small boats are concerned,
expect
the unexpected. (Hey! Let's take a close look at the big ship!!). (right
or
wrong).

Well, we try to get the hell out of Dodge if we have any indication
a freighter is headed our way... in the bay or out. :-)

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"
Date: 11/20/2003 09:36 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Shen44" wrote in message
...
Subject: Ferry Speeds
From: "Jonathan Ganz"


Not according to every single person I've ever heard speak on
the subject, including several Coasties. The tankers have stand on
status. They will not and cannot stop or maneuver much in the bay.
I don't know about expecting or not, but the CG says they have
status.

You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others, but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding "stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Very good dissertation. I'm glad you gave a good
explanation of shall not impede. One thing you did
not mention, however, is shall not impede applies
in all conditions of visibility. This means there
is give-way/stand-on vessel status in restricted
visibility.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs. Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage" means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds, but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel - it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However, if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way" is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule 18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8 often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen

Ferry Speeds
 

Negative, former master.

It is true that the "shall not impede" rules are in affect in all conditions of
visibility, but as always, you've missed the important point. "Shall no impede" is NOT
the same as "give-way." There are similarities, to be sure, and in the extreme case they
are effectively the same. But the governing rules use very different language and mean
different things. In fact, Rule 8(f)iii stresses that the stand-on/give-way relationship
has not been altered - a "not to be impeded" vessel may still be the give-way vessel.

Further, its important to note that the "vessel not to be impeded" is not "stand-on" -
that is, it is not required to hold course and speed. In fact, it may well be required to
alter course. All that "shall not impede" requires is that the vessel is given sufficient
room for safe passage. The stand-on/give-way relationship implies that the stand-on
vessel should not have to alter course at all.

You have raised an interesting issue that the Narrow Channel and TSS Rules are in affect
in all conditions of visibility. It means that in heavy fog a sailboat should not cross a
channel if it is not able to determine if it is clear. This should be easy in a lightly
used channel, where you might only hear one fog signal, but would be impossible in a busy
channel without radar.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Very good dissertation. I'm glad you gave a good
explanation of shall not impede. One thing you did
not mention, however, is shall not impede applies
in all conditions of visibility. This means there
is give-way/stand-on vessel status in restricted
visibility.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Well, (almost) no status is absolute because in (almost) any real life situation there
are
complexities not explicitly mentioned in the rules. For example, there is no explicit
mention of three vessel situations in the rules.

However, the phrase "shall not impede" is a bit more vague than most of the ColRegs.
Most
casual commentators, writing simplified rules for novices, will say that "shall not
impede" means the same as "keep out of the way off" that implies give-way status.
However, this is not the intent of the wording. "Shall not impede the safe passage"
means
that a vessel which might ordinarily have stand-on status, must leave the other vessel
a
reasonable amount of room to pass. The stand-on/give-way relationship still holds,
but
now the stand-on vessel may be required to alter course to accommodate the other
vessel.

The meaning of this, in practice, depends a lot on the actual situation. For
instance,
Rule 9(b) says that a vessel under 20 meters or a sailboat shall not impede a vessel
that
can only navigate within a channel - but it doesn't say anything about this vessel -
it
may be smaller and less restricted than the sailboat. If the vessel is actually more
maneuverable than the sailboat, it does not need a "protection" from 9(b). However,
if
the give-way vessel is an oil tanker, it may be on the only reasonable course, and any
alteration would be impeding its safe passage. Thus, the master of the sailboat has
to
appreciate the handling characteristics of the other vessel.

Since its rather unlikely that the novice small boat operator will understand the
needs of
the large ship, for these boats, interpreting "shall not impede" as meaning "give-way"
is
appropriate. However, it doesn't mean that a smaller power vessel becomes stand-on
WRT a
sailboat because its in a fairway. Thus, the status of vessels implied by the various
terms of Rules 9 and 10 are not as absolute as the "stand-on/give-way" status of Rule
18.

There has been much confusion over the use of "impede;" the IMO tried to clarify this
in
Rule 8 with some added clauses - their comments on this make it clear that "shall not
impede" is not as binding as "shall stay out of the way of," but the words of Rule 8
often
sound like gibberish. Fortunately, professional mariners seems to understand it.






"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Hmmm... interesting point... I'm wondering when would be
a situation when that status isn't absolute... in the bay that is?

"Shen44" wrote in message
...
You tweaked a memory. In SF Bay, there's at least one area which is an RNA
and
small boats aren't allowed (around Pinole Shoal) and there may be others,
but
generally, I believe you'll find that everyone's working under the "shall
not
impede" rule. (I'd love to see some case history on this).
We are talking a legal point here that has room for confusion regarding
"stand
on" status ..... it's a part of the "Shall Not Impede" rule that many have
never liked.
I would like to say, you're correct, because the ship shall not be
impeded, he
has stand on status, but G that status is not absolute.

Shen