Ferry Speeds
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Wrong. Read Rule 8 again and again and again.

(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required
not to impede the passage or safe passage of . . .

Did you read the above? How come it says 'by any of these rule'
instead of 'by Rule 9'? If it only applied to Rule 9 it would
have mentioned only Rule 9 but instead it says by any of
these Rules and 'any of these Rules' means any of these
rules.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

You're right, it doesn't get any clearer than that. "Shall not impede" is many a number
of times, but only in Rules 9 and 10. The words don't appear anywhere else in the
ColRegs. Those are the rules referred to by "any of these rules" in Rule 8(f). Its very
simple, Simon.

You're trying to claim that rule 8(f) has some application beyond clarifying the meaning
of "shall not impede" as it is used in Rules 9 and 10. It just isn't so. The rules mean
exactly what they say.


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)

Ferry Speeds
 

That's all obvious and I don't disagree. What I do disagree
with is the fact that Rick and the others have a narrow view
of when and where 'shall not impede applies. They claim it
only applies in narrow channels and fairways and traffic
separation schemes while I maintain it is a broader concept
applying as stated 'by any of these rules' ---------------

8 (f)(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required
not to impede the passage or safe passage of . . .

S.Simon


"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...
Neal,
I think you are missing the point that the others are discussing.
It doesn't matter if the "ship" is in a narrow channel or a TSS, the
Rules are still holding them to the stand on/give way status under the
Steering and Sailing Rules.
However, because the vessel which must stay in the narrow channel or
TSS, is working under conditions which potentially limit it's ability to
comply with those rules, they have stated that the vessel which is not
restricted to those confines, shall not impede, even though it may be
the stand on vessel.
They have not relieved the ship of it's obligations, they have just put
the greater obligation onto the smaller vessel to understand those
conditions and give way, no matter what (stand on or give way).

otn

Ferry Speeds
 

Huh? To the best of my knowledge, other than CBD, for the purposes of
this discussion, it only applies to narrow channels, and TSS (Not Safety
fairways).
Now, are you trying one of your usual trolls, or is there something
outside of the discussion we're missing .... which relates to the
discussion? Rick? Was he ever in this discussion?

otn

Simple Simon wrote:
That's all obvious and I don't disagree. What I do disagree
with is the fact that Rick and the others have a narrow view
of when and where 'shall not impede applies. They claim it
only applies in narrow channels and fairways and traffic
separation schemes while I maintain it is a broader concept
applying as stated 'by any of these rules' ---------------

8 (f)(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required
not to impede the passage or safe passage of . . .

S.Simon

Ferry Speeds
 

I disagree. If it only referred to two different rules
it would have listed the numbers of the rules.

Any of these rules means any of these rules and is
not limited to the two you mentioned.

Any of these rules clearly includes any of these rules
where the vessels shall not be impeded. This includes
any case where a vessel might be in a situation to
impede another. These situations arise all the time
in open water and are not restricted to narrow
channels, etc.

For example, in open water if Shen44's motor vessel
fails to give way as the rules mandate to my sailboat
and I have to slow down and stop or take evasive action
then Capt. Shenandoah has impeded my vessel. He is
violating Rule 8 (f) (i) (ii) (iii) even though we are
both operating in open waters.

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Wrong. Read Rule 8 again and again and again.

(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required
not to impede the passage or safe passage of . . .

Did you read the above? How come it says 'by any of these rule'
instead of 'by Rule 9'? If it only applied to Rule 9 it would
have mentioned only Rule 9 but instead it says by any of
these Rules and 'any of these Rules' means any of these
rules.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

You're right, it doesn't get any clearer than that. "Shall not impede" is many a number
of times, but only in Rules 9 and 10. The words don't appear anywhere else in the
ColRegs. Those are the rules referred to by "any of these rules" in Rule 8(f). Its very
simple, Simon.

You're trying to claim that rule 8(f) has some application beyond clarifying the meaning
of "shall not impede" as it is used in Rules 9 and 10. It just isn't so. The rules mean
exactly what they say.


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)

Ferry Speeds
 

I don't need to check, since I know that that is the
case. They are restricted to the channels, but of
course, they couldn't really leave them even if
they wanted to.

Another interesting thing is that occasionally
the inbound lane switches to the outbound
lane. Whereas, the outbound lane, as far as
I can recall, never switches to the inbound lane.
In other words, occasionally an inbound vessel
will use the outbound lane to go down the bay,
but that never seems to happen on the way out.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...
Jonathan,
One thing Shen's memory didn't bring up, and you would need to check
Coast Pilot 7 to confirm this, is that the USCG has designated those TSS
areas in SF Bay, as narrow channels.
In essence, this restricts the ships to staying within the TSS, as well
as telling the small boater, the ship cannot maneuver outside of the TSS
and I don't doubt you can see how this can alter a vessel's actions
versus an at sea TSS.

otn

Ferry Speeds
 

Outside the Rules? How can that be when I am
quoting the rules and claiming they say what
they say? If you guys choose to have a narrow
interpretation, fine but that does not preclude
my maintaining they have broader implications.

I have given concrete examples and application
of the Rules to prove my point while you guys
resort to saying I'm not sticking to narrow
views. Why not argue on the merits instead
of wussing out?

S.Simon


"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...
Huh? To the best of my knowledge, other than CBD, for the purposes of
this discussion, it only applies to narrow channels, and TSS (Not Safety
fairways).
Now, are you trying one of your usual trolls, or is there something
outside of the discussion we're missing .... which relates to the
discussion? Rick? Was he ever in this discussion?

otn

Simple Simon wrote:
That's all obvious and I don't disagree. What I do disagree
with is the fact that Rick and the others have a narrow view
of when and where 'shall not impede applies. They claim it
only applies in narrow channels and fairways and traffic
separation schemes while I maintain it is a broader concept
applying as stated 'by any of these rules' ---------------

8 (f)(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required
not to impede the passage or safe passage of . . .

S.Simon

Ferry Speeds
 

Sorry, but it's been awhile since I've transited SF Bay, so I can't
reasonably discuss the reason for the inbound/outbound cross over.
The main point, which I can see you understand, and which Shen was
poorly EG describing, is that, regarding stand on when talking large
ship small boat in narrow channels and TSS.
There are bound to be a number of fine points which may apply when
discussing this issue, regarding a specific geographical location and
"Port State" regulations,plus ships versus small boats, but if you
understand the basic application and apply it, you'll normally stay
clear of any and all problems...... i.e. when all else fails ....Rule 2

otn

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
I don't need to check, since I know that that is the
case. They are restricted to the channels, but of
course, they couldn't really leave them even if
they wanted to.

Another interesting thing is that occasionally
the inbound lane switches to the outbound
lane. Whereas, the outbound lane, as far as
I can recall, never switches to the inbound lane.
In other words, occasionally an inbound vessel
will use the outbound lane to go down the bay,
but that never seems to happen on the way out.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...

Jonathan,
One thing Shen's memory didn't bring up, and you would need to check
Coast Pilot 7 to confirm this, is that the USCG has designated those TSS
areas in SF Bay, as narrow channels.
In essence, this restricts the ships to staying within the TSS, as well
as telling the small boater, the ship cannot maneuver outside of the TSS
and I don't doubt you can see how this can alter a vessel's actions
versus an at sea TSS.

otn

Ferry Speeds
 

In other words, this is another simpleton troll, not worth responding
to, except to comment that it's a troll ... bubye simple....

otn

Simple Simon wrote:
Outside the Rules? How can that be when I am
quoting the rules and claiming they say what
they say? If you guys choose to have a narrow
interpretation, fine but that does not preclude
my maintaining they have broader implications.

I have given concrete examples and application
of the Rules to prove my point while you guys
resort to saying I'm not sticking to narrow
views. Why not argue on the merits instead
of wussing out?

S.Simon


"otnmbrd" wrote in message ink.net...

Huh? To the best of my knowledge, other than CBD, for the purposes of
this discussion, it only applies to narrow channels, and TSS (Not Safety
fairways).
Now, are you trying one of your usual trolls, or is there something
outside of the discussion we're missing .... which relates to the
discussion? Rick? Was he ever in this discussion?

otn

Simple Simon wrote:

That's all obvious and I don't disagree. What I do disagree
with is the fact that Rick and the others have a narrow view
of when and where 'shall not impede applies. They claim it
only applies in narrow channels and fairways and traffic
separation schemes while I maintain it is a broader concept
applying as stated 'by any of these rules' ---------------

8 (f)(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required
not to impede the passage or safe passage of . . .

S.Simon

Ferry Speeds
 

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Neal, have you ever been right about ANYTHING???

Bwahahaahahaha!

Well done, Bob.


You've just taken part in a real sailing discussion. You didn't contribute
very much, but we wouldn't expect you to on your first attempt.


Well done!



Regards


Donal
--

Ferry Speeds
 

You've just taken part in a real sailing discussion. You didn't contribute
very much, but we wouldn't expect you to on your first attempt.

I think I deserve credit for one of the better posts in a long expired subject.
I also started a thread on "Largest open sailing boat" today. Also: Best
daysailor query and posts about night vision.
I also taught Loco and some sockpuppet all about 5.1 and 6.1 audio.

RB