You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

A water ski and a kite board in and of themselves
cannot be defined as vessels. The person that stands
on both is being pulled either by a boat or a kite. The
person drags the ski or the board along fast enough
so it gets up on plane. Both board and ski are more of
an implement or a piece of apparel and not a vessel.
Is a snorkeler's pair of swim fins to be called a vessel?
Anybody who cannot see this valid point is an imbecile.

S.Simon

"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
No the skier is a person and not a vessel. Your argument is illogical.
Is a ship with no motive power not a vessel? What about a barge?
Bwhahhahhahahaa -as you say.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

NO! The water ski and the kite board without the
help of a towing vessel or a kite cannot transport
anybody anywhere. Neither kite board or water
ski can possibly be a vessel. Take an extreme
example, the water skier who skis on his own
two bare feet, I'm sure you've seen it done.
Are the skier's two feet vessels? Is the skier
a catamaran then? Bwahahahahhahahahha!

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Again, what is the definition of a vessel? Is a trolling line capable of
transport? No. Is a kite surfing board? I think you know the answer but
are just too stubborn.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Your logic is anything but logical.

A kite boarder is not recognized by the COLREGS
as a vessel. The kite, whether you call it a sail or
not, is attached to the person and not the board.


The board is not a vessel any more than a water ski
is a vessel or a trolling line is a vessel or a taffrail
log is a vessel or a chum bag is a vessel or a parasailer
is a vessel.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...


You still miss the point. Colregs apply to all vessels on the water. A
kite surfer can carry you from one place to another and is therefore a
vessel. As a vessel it is not powered by machinery or oars and is
therefore a sailing vessel or NUC. As the kite fits the definaition of a
sail I say it is a sailing vessel. Since they are not showing the day
shapes for NUC my logic prevails and they are a sailing vessel.

Cheers MC

Donal wrote:



"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...



I say you are both wrong. In fact the kite surfer is a sailboat under
existing Colregs. This is beacuse 1) the colregs describe all vessels
(3a) and (2) the "kite" is used as a means of propulsion and is
therefore a sail -by legal definition.


You should know better than to claim that I am wrong.

I awarded top marks to Neal because he is the only person to spot that the
kite surfers constitute a "gray area" that needs to be cleared up.

Personally, I feel that they are sailing vessels.

Why has nobody answered the original question? ie What would you do if
you were on a (starboard tack) collision course with a (port tack) kite
surfer?




Regards


Donal
--

The colregs clearly say the vessel need not be diplacement. In that
sense, a ski is simply overloaded and sinks when not planing. They also
float without people on them!

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

But, the colregs don't define displacement as not floating at all.
The word displacement means non-planing as in a displacement
sailboat vs. a planing motor boat.

Any craft or device that sinks out from under a person
unless the person is being pulled along at a good clip and
dragging the device along with him is clearly not a vessel.

Here is the definition again.

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of
being used as a means of transportation on water.

Note the word 'watercraft'. Here is the defintion of watercraft.

wa.ter.craft \-'kraft\ n : a craft for water transport : ship, boat

© 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary © 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

A board or a ski that has no way to be powered and sinks when one
stands on it cannot transport anything anywhere. These are not
watercraft. These are devices used by a person being pulled along
rapidly to stay on the surface.

S.Simon


S.Simon

"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
The colregs clearly say the vessel need not be diplacement. In that
sense, a ski is simply overloaded and sinks when not planing. They also
float without people on them!

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

That won't do. The definition is circular. The OED defines a water craft
as a vessel that plies on the water. Note: On the water.

Now what about a windsurfer, is that a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

But, the colregs don't define displacement as not floating at all.
The word displacement means non-planing as in a displacement
sailboat vs. a planing motor boat.

Any craft or device that sinks out from under a person
unless the person is being pulled along at a good clip and
dragging the device along with him is clearly not a vessel.

Here is the definition again.

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of
being used as a means of transportation on water.

Note the word 'watercraft'. Here is the defintion of watercraft.

wa.ter.craft \-'kraft\ n : a craft for water transport : ship, boat

© 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary © 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

A board or a ski that has no way to be powered and sinks when one
stands on it cannot transport anything anywhere. These are not
watercraft. These are devices used by a person being pulled along
rapidly to stay on the surface.

S.Simon


S.Simon

"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

The colregs clearly say the vessel need not be diplacement. In that
sense, a ski is simply overloaded and sinks when not planing. They also
float without people on them!

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

Yes, because the sails are attached directly to the board.
Even small (sinker) boards are sailboats because the sail
is attached to them and can power them fast enough to
stay on the surface and go from place to place.

A windsurfer is a small sailboat.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

So the fact that it sinks when becalmed is irrelevant?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Yes, because the sails are attached directly to the board.
Even small (sinker) boards are sailboats because the sail
is attached to them and can power them fast enough to
stay on the surface and go from place to place.

A windsurfer is a small sailboat.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

That a sailboard sinks when becalmed is not germane to
the fact that it is still a vessel. It is a vessel because it
has a sail attached that moves it along on the water when
the wind comes up. A kite board has no such sail attached.
In the same manner a water ski has no such propulsion of
any kind attached. Neither is a vessel. The only way either
of them stay on the water is when being dragged along by
an outside force that is not even applied directly to them.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
So the fact that it sinks when becalmed is irrelevant?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

Yes, because the sails are attached directly to the board.
Even small (sinker) boards are sailboats because the sail
is attached to them and can power them fast enough to
stay on the surface and go from place to place.

A windsurfer is a small sailboat.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

The sail is attached via the sailor. But that is not the point at the
moment. The attachment of a sail is not germain as to whether it is a
vessel and that is all that matters.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

That a sailboard sinks when becalmed is not germane to
the fact that it is still a vessel. It is a vessel because it
has a sail attached that moves it along on the water when
the wind comes up. A kite board has no such sail attached.
In the same manner a water ski has no such propulsion of
any kind attached. Neither is a vessel. The only way either
of them stay on the water is when being dragged along by
an outside force that is not even applied directly to them.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

So the fact that it sinks when becalmed is irrelevant?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Yes, because the sails are attached directly to the board.
Even small (sinker) boards are sailboats because the sail
is attached to them and can power them fast enough to
stay on the surface and go from place to place.

A windsurfer is a small sailboat.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...


Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:



You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.

It is germane because without an outside source of power
the board or ski sinks, goes nowhere and is not a vessel.

The only thing that makes a ski or board resemble a vessel
is when it is being dragged along with the aid of a person
standing upon it who is being pulled along rapidly by
an outside source of power but a ski or a board is no more
a vessel than is a man being pulled along body surfing on
his stomach.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...
The sail is attached via the sailor. But that is not the point at the
moment. The attachment of a sail is not germain as to whether it is a
vessel and that is all that matters.

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

That a sailboard sinks when becalmed is not germane to
the fact that it is still a vessel. It is a vessel because it
has a sail attached that moves it along on the water when
the wind comes up. A kite board has no such sail attached.
In the same manner a water ski has no such propulsion of
any kind attached. Neither is a vessel. The only way either
of them stay on the water is when being dragged along by
an outside force that is not even applied directly to them.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...

So the fact that it sinks when becalmed is irrelevant?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:


Yes, because the sails are attached directly to the board.
Even small (sinker) boards are sailboats because the sail
is attached to them and can power them fast enough to
stay on the surface and go from place to place.

A windsurfer is a small sailboat.

S.Simon


"The_navigator©" wrote in message ...


Is a windsurfer a vessel?

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:



You are clearly wrong. A kite board sinks when the
operator stands on it. A water ski also sinks when
the operator stands on it. Clearly neither is a vessel.

A barge floats when cargo or people are on it. Even if
it has no power it can drift from place to place with
the winds and current. A barge clearly is a vessel.