Not if its not "being propelled by machinery"...


Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:
o on.

In the same manner, an aux/sailboat showing a steaming light
by night and a cone by day identifies itself as a motorboat. It
matters not if the sails are providing the propulsion. As long as
there is machinery operating it's legally a motorboat according
to the Rules.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:02:53 GMT, "Wally" wrote
this crap:

Simple Simon wrote:

The cone makes you a motor boat.

If I wear a fake alien mask, does that make me an alien?

Only in your case.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Just like having tits makes you a woman.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 01:02:53 GMT, "Wally" wrote
this crap:

Simple Simon wrote:

The cone makes you a motor boat.

If I wear a fake alien mask, does that make me an alien?

Only in your case.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Simple Simon wrote:

I continue to embarrass myself ...

I am Master of an aux/sailboat because an aux sailboat
with the motor running is a motorboat and a motorboat license if
appropriate for its operation.

News for you Nil, the COLREGS aren't part of the licensing structure.

You got a sail endorsement? No? You ain't a sailboat captain then.

Geez, it's always been obvious you are not too swift when it comes to
maritime operations, procedures, and law but you continue to amaze me by
stretching the boundaries of your own stupidity.

I am Master of an aux/sailboat ...

Bwahahahahahahahaaha What a moron. Tell the guys at the REC, maybe they
will change your ticket to aux/sail once you set them straight.

Bwahahahahahahahaha What a moron.

Rick

But the COLREGS do set the rules for what a vessel is defined as. Motor vessel and
sail vessel are but two of the definitions given.

Rule 3

General Definitions

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manageability.

(e) The term "seaplane" includes any aircraft designed to maneuver



A sailing endorsement is only necessary for a sailing vessel.

S.Simon





"Rick" wrote in message ink.net...
Simple Simon wrote:

I continue to embarrass myself ...

I am Master of an aux/sailboat because an aux sailboat
with the motor running is a motorboat and a motorboat license if
appropriate for its operation.

News for you Nil, the COLREGS aren't part of the licensing structure.

You got a sail endorsement? No? You ain't a sailboat captain then.

Geez, it's always been obvious you are not too swift when it comes to
maritime operations, procedures, and law but you continue to amaze me by
stretching the boundaries of your own stupidity.

I am Master of an aux/sailboat ...

Bwahahahahahahahaaha What a moron. Tell the guys at the REC, maybe they
will change your ticket to aux/sail once you set them straight.

Bwahahahahahahahaha What a moron.

Rick

Simple Simon wrote:

But the COLREGS do set the rules for what a vessel is defined as.

This must be the "I really meant something else" backpedal several
others were saying you would resort to when you got cornered and panicky.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with COLREGS, Nil, please try real
hard and remember that. Tie a string on your finer if it will help. The
validity of your license has nothing to do with COLREGS. Now try saying
that out loud and maybe it will sink in.

Keep backpedaling Nil, you are doing a better job of making *you* look
like a wannabe moron than I could ever hope to do. All you gotta do is
type and your real nautical skills float up from the wreckage of your
years of boasting ...

Bwhahahahahahahahahaahah Professional dinghy driver wannabe ...

Are you sure you aren't really Jax?

Bon Voyage,

Rick

You're using a ColRegs definition of sail and power. This is simply not relevant to the
licensing issue. There is nothing that ties the two together.

However, 46CFR, which governs the licensing, says that it derives many of its basic
definitions (or "includes by reference") from the ABYC standards. In there, it defines
"Sail" as "Sail includes sailboats which may have a small outboard engine for auxiliary
power." "Auxiliary Sail" refers to sailboats which have an inboard engine.

46CFR is quite clear on the requirements for a "sail" and "auxiliary sail" endorsement,
and the need to have the appropriate endorsement to be a master on these types of vessels.
There is no mention of whether the sail or engine is used, only the type of boat.
Clearly, to be a Master of a Sailboat, you must have the sail endorsement. Even if you
never raise the sail and power all day on the outboard, while you may be a "power vessel"
from the point of view of the ColRegs, but you're a sailboat according to 46 CFR, and you
need the endorsement.
--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"I like sailing because it is the sport which demands the least energy" Albert Einstein




"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
All the so-called professional captains continue to embarrass themselves
by refusing to read and understand the COLREGS. They show their stupidity
as well by not understanding the definition of a motor boat.

Fact: any aux/sailboat when its motor is running, no matter whether it
has sails up or not, is a motor boat according to the Rules.

This means that a 25GT Master of Steam or Motor Vessels Near Coastal
does not need a sail endorsement to carry passengers for hire unless and
until the motor is turned off and the vessel is operating under sail alone.

Even then it's a gray area because all one need do is keep the steaming
cone up and you are still considered a motor boat by any and all vessels
you may happen to come across. The simple act of displaying the cone
makes your Master of Steam or Motor Vessels license all that is needed
to be legal. The cone makes you a motor boat. The only time you cannot
be a motor boat is if you have no motor installed. Then flying the cone
is not legal because it's a lie. The Master of the vessel is the person
who decides if his aux/sail vessel is a sailboat or a motorboat and
not the courts and not the Coast Guard. Just to make the case 100
percent watertight all the Master need do is just keep the motor
turning over at an idle and there is no lie. Everything is on the up
and up according to the definitions in the Rules. No court in the
land can decide any different without misinterpreting the Rules.

Rick is clearly an idiot and so is Shen44 and otn if they fail to
see these simple facts that represent the truth the whole truth
and nothing but the truth. Rick wrote: "You are NOT a master of
sailboats of any sort. You are not a professional sailor."

Wrong! I am Master of an aux/sailboat because an aux sailboat
with the motor running is a motorboat and a motorboat license if
appropriate for its operation.

Rick further embarrassed himself by writing the following gem:
"The funny part is that Nil hangs all his claims to fame and status on
being a sailor of sailboats and loudly and continually condemns all
powerboaters as some sort of subspecies."

Wrong again! I have always maintained that I studied for and
obtained a Masters license mostly for the knowledge gained and
not to make a living with it. It allows me to legally do a little
work on the side in BOTH my aux/sailboat and my Boston Whaler.
It also allows me to keep honest you ego cases who live and breath
motorboats only. You just hate the fact that a single-handed
sailor who lives aboard and actually goes places knows as much
as you do and passed the same tests you took probably with
better scores to boot.


S.Simon

Master of Steam or Motor Vessels of not more than 25GT
upon Near Coastal Waters, also Operator of Uninspected
Passenger Vessels upon Near Coastal Waters not to exceed
100 miles offshore.

I disagree. You cannot have two conflicting sets of rules and
expect to make any sense out of them. There is only one legal
definition of a sailing vessel underway and that is the one
in the COLREGS as long as said vessel is operating in waters
covered by the COLREGS.

The other definition only covers those areas not covered by
the COLREGS.

Lord!

S.Simon


"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
You're using a ColRegs definition of sail and power. This is simply not relevant to the
licensing issue. There is nothing that ties the two together.

However, 46CFR, which governs the licensing, says that it derives many of its basic
definitions (or "includes by reference") from the ABYC standards. In there, it defines
"Sail" as "Sail includes sailboats which may have a small outboard engine for auxiliary
power." "Auxiliary Sail" refers to sailboats which have an inboard engine.

46CFR is quite clear on the requirements for a "sail" and "auxiliary sail" endorsement,
and the need to have the appropriate endorsement to be a master on these types of vessels.
There is no mention of whether the sail or engine is used, only the type of boat.
Clearly, to be a Master of a Sailboat, you must have the sail endorsement. Even if you
never raise the sail and power all day on the outboard, while you may be a "power vessel"
from the point of view of the ColRegs, but you're a sailboat according to 46 CFR, and you
need the endorsement.
--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"I like sailing because it is the sport which demands the least energy" Albert Einstein




"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
All the so-called professional captains continue to embarrass themselves
by refusing to read and understand the COLREGS. They show their stupidity
as well by not understanding the definition of a motor boat.

Fact: any aux/sailboat when its motor is running, no matter whether it
has sails up or not, is a motor boat according to the Rules.

This means that a 25GT Master of Steam or Motor Vessels Near Coastal
does not need a sail endorsement to carry passengers for hire unless and
until the motor is turned off and the vessel is operating under sail alone.

Even then it's a gray area because all one need do is keep the steaming
cone up and you are still considered a motor boat by any and all vessels
you may happen to come across. The simple act of displaying the cone
makes your Master of Steam or Motor Vessels license all that is needed
to be legal. The cone makes you a motor boat. The only time you cannot
be a motor boat is if you have no motor installed. Then flying the cone
is not legal because it's a lie. The Master of the vessel is the person
who decides if his aux/sail vessel is a sailboat or a motorboat and
not the courts and not the Coast Guard. Just to make the case 100
percent watertight all the Master need do is just keep the motor
turning over at an idle and there is no lie. Everything is on the up
and up according to the definitions in the Rules. No court in the
land can decide any different without misinterpreting the Rules.

Rick is clearly an idiot and so is Shen44 and otn if they fail to
see these simple facts that represent the truth the whole truth
and nothing but the truth. Rick wrote: "You are NOT a master of
sailboats of any sort. You are not a professional sailor."

Wrong! I am Master of an aux/sailboat because an aux sailboat
with the motor running is a motorboat and a motorboat license if
appropriate for its operation.

Rick further embarrassed himself by writing the following gem:
"The funny part is that Nil hangs all his claims to fame and status on
being a sailor of sailboats and loudly and continually condemns all
powerboaters as some sort of subspecies."

Wrong again! I have always maintained that I studied for and
obtained a Masters license mostly for the knowledge gained and
not to make a living with it. It allows me to legally do a little
work on the side in BOTH my aux/sailboat and my Boston Whaler.
It also allows me to keep honest you ego cases who live and breath
motorboats only. You just hate the fact that a single-handed
sailor who lives aboard and actually goes places knows as much
as you do and passed the same tests you took probably with
better scores to boot.


S.Simon

Master of Steam or Motor Vessels of not more than 25GT
upon Near Coastal Waters, also Operator of Uninspected
Passenger Vessels upon Near Coastal Waters not to exceed
100 miles offshore.

"Simple Simon" wrote:
I disagree. You cannot have two conflicting sets of rules and
expect to make any sense out of them.

Why not? One set of rules is Collision Regualtions, or "Right-of-Way Rules" in the
common parlance. There is no mention in them licenses. The other set governs licenses -
the requirements to obtain them, and what they permit you to do. You are not licensed
Master for your boat.

The two sets of rules cover totally different domains. There is no "conflict" between
them

There is only one legal
definition of a sailing vessel underway and that is the one
in the COLREGS as long as said vessel is operating in waters
covered by the COLREGS.

no. there are many definitions, for many purposes.


The other definition only covers those areas not covered by
the COLREGS.

Lord!

I have spoken.

Simple Simon wrote:

There are sets of rules and I cannot make any sense out of them.

You finally got something right.

There is only one legal definition of a sailing vessel underway
and that is the one in the COLREGS as long as said vessel is
operating in waters covered by the COLREGS.

One more great example of Nil's "I really really did mean something
else" backpedal. Wake up Nil, we aren't talking about the COLREGS, we
are talking about how phony you are.

You lost the COLREGS argument anyway so it might be better if you lay
low on that one too.

I think one of my fellow professional mariners summed it up pretty well:

"I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again .... you're a phony
wannabe, not worthy of anyone's respect, where licenses and maritime
knowledge are concerned."

Bwahahahahahahahaahahah COLREGS backpedal indeed Bwhahahahahahahaaha

Time to play sailboater and try another tack ... Bwhahahahahahahaah

Rick