Bart Senior wrote:

While everyone was working on hauled boats, I was out
sailing on HOOT today.

Winds were 15-20 from the SSW clocking around to SW.

Hmm. Down here it was no wind and drizzly rain. I got invited to go
out for a local PHRF race but didn't. We stayed in the slip &
worked on the boat. Not everyone has to haul out for the winter!





I was hoping to fly the chute all the way up the river, but the
veering wind killed that idea.

I want to go out again tomorrow, but can't find experienced
crew. Winds will be 20-30 with a front coming through in the
afternoon.

You don't need experienced crew, you just need someone who can
follow instructions under trying conditions. BTW if you're not
racing one design, you can put a retrieval line on the chute. Very
good addition IMHO.

How far up the river is "all the way"?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Pony Express wrote:

No, they are sticking with their stock sunfish
rudder. We did it partially for simplicity and
uniformity. We put the same rudder on the JY14's
as well. Then we just keep a couple spares on hand
and they'll fit any boat.

Good idea IMHO. Sending students out in boats with
undersize rudders is not a good idea. Once they get
the idea, it might be nice to let them get a handle on
the sort of bad handling characteristics they'll
encounter out in the real world, but then also sailing
a boat with an undersize rudder leads to some bad
helming habits.

FB
Doug King

sailing
a boat with an undersize rudder leads to some bad
helming habits.

The Captains Nemesis wrote:
Like what?

Basically, oversteering all the time.

DSK

That's why I push the rudderless drill. You don't
need a rudder to steer a boat. We run rudderless
races. Once you get in the mind set of using
weight placement to steer the boat, you can get
away from oversteering. People often forget the
rudder is an effective brake.
--
----
Steve
S/V Pony Express

"DSK" wrote in message
...
: sailing
: a boat with an undersize rudder leads to some
bad
: helming habits.
:
: The Captains Nemesis wrote:
: Like what?
:
: Basically, oversteering all the time.
:
: DSK
:

The Captains Nemesis wrote:


OK, like not balancing the boat properly and putting the brakes on
with the rudder?

Not sure, but that seems more likely to develop as a habit in somebody who
sails a boat with an oversized rudder.

Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or digging
the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots of
racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.

Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and when
shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still use
some work....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The Captains Nemesis wrote:


OK.....I've noticed guys doing it, never thought of it being caused by
anything buy impatience and lack of finesse.
It's one of the things we look at hard when someone in the Etchells
complains of lack of speed.

The Etchells has a nice balanced rudder and flat aft sections, I'd think it
wouldn't be too sensitive to oversteering.

But then, one of the fastest helmsmen I ever sailed with didn't move the tiller.
Once I realized that he was steering more with heel angle and mainshet tension, I
used to watch his hand closely... he did it instinctively and was used to winning
by miles. I swear he only moved the tiller about two inches in full-press roll
tacks.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.

Bart

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:


Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or digging
the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots of
racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.

Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and when
shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still use
some work....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Can't say as I agree with you there Bart. Overworking the rudder....
especially on a barn door size like mine is a sure way to slow down in a
hurry. The rudder will want to turn the boat to least resistance.... not to
the direction you want to go. I stand firm on not allowing to much
correction to take place by my helmsman.

CM

"Bart Senior" bartsenior wrote in message
...
| Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
| and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.
|
| Bart
|
| On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:
|
|
| Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or
digging
| the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots
of
| racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
| unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.
|
| Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and
when
| shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
| sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still
use
| some work....
|
| Fresh Breezes- Doug King
|

To have a proper discussion we'd have to split this into at least
three parts. One man dinks, light weight medium sized boats
an larger heavy displacment boats.

Rudder movement is a very effective tool for slowing down. I
use dramatic motions with the rudder to kill speed when docking
under sail. The is no question that it slows you down.

I tend to agree with you on heavier boats. Have you ever had
your boat surfing in big waves?

I've surfed a 38 ton schooner and the drag caused by the
dramatic helm movement was more than made up for in the
added accelleration coming down a monster wave in the
Pacific.

On lighter boats in waves, working the helm to a certain degree
--not constantly, is not only a help but a necessity.

Depending on conditions, it is important to position yourself
correctly on the wave, to surf and get that extra accelleration.
It is worth the effort. Once in position on the wave, of
course you want to minimize drag, and keep the helm centered,
to sustain the surf and keep it there as long as possible.

On dinghies, with onlly one person aboard. Body weight can
be effectively substituted for tiller movement--I think that was
the point Doug made. The fastest sailor use the minimum helm
movement and steer with body weight.

I think it would take an awesome crew on medium sized boats
to use body weight effectively.

Bart


On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:44:58 -0400, "Capt. Mooron"
wrote:

Can't say as I agree with you there Bart. Overworking the rudder....
especially on a barn door size like mine is a sure way to slow down in a
hurry. The rudder will want to turn the boat to least resistance.... not to
the direction you want to go. I stand firm on not allowing to much
correction to take place by my helmsman.

CM

"Bart Senior" bartsenior wrote in message
.. .
| Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
| and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.
|
| Bart
|
| On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:
|
|
| Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or
digging
| the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots
of
| racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
| unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.
|
| Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and
when
| shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
| sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still
use
| some work....
|
| Fresh Breezes- Doug King
|

So getting the boats head wiped off increases speed?

Cheers MC

Bart Senior wrote:

Sometimes in waves, it is the rudder that wants to move back
and forth, in which case, holding it straight will slow you down.

Bart

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:33:58 -0500, DSK wrote:


Undersized rudder helmsmanship: yanking the boat through a tack or digging
the bow in trying to surf. I've observed both in folks who have done lots of
racing on Lasers and in two cases, on an Olson 30. They seemed totally
unconscious of the fact that they could cut firewood with their helm.

Actually, I had a hard time correcting some of my own bad habits, and when
shown a video of myself sailing the Lightning, commented "Who's that jerk
sawing the tiller back and forth like a maniac?" No doubt I could still use
some work....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King