Vito wrote:
He let Kruchev bluff him into pulling back our own bases in Turkey and elsewhere.
According to Kruchev .....

Oh yeah, right.... and Kruschev always tells the truth, 100%... here is a fine
how-de-do, in order to smear a US President you accept Communist propaganda...
that's really 'conservative' isn't it.

JFK DID close the bases in Turkey and we DID have a massive first strike
capability that Kruschev was very much aware of so I believe Kruschev
this time. At least he never claimed to be a jelly donut (c:

Huh. Did Ike have a 'plan' in Viet Nam, ...

Actually, a very good one. Ho worked for us during WW2 and became Prime
Minister of all Vietnam after that war. When the French tried to return
he had Japanese troops, placed under his temporary command by the treaty
signed aboard Missouri, inter them and send them home. But the Japs
left, the French returned and Ho's pleas that we take over a we did in
the Philippines went unanswered. So he whipped the frogs himself, but
then didn't know what to do. He knew that people in western democracies
lived better than folks under communism but commies had helped him when
we wouldn't.

So far, an interesting mix of near-truth and total fantasy. Ho Chi Mihn (an
alias, the man's real name is believed to be Ngyen Ai Quoc) did not 'become
Prime Minister of all Vietnam.' No such office then or now.

The Emperor Bao Dai (sp?) established a Brit-type constitutional
monarchy with Ho as everybody calls him) as PM.

His command of the largest & best armed insurgent group put him in position to assume power.

Yup, that's why BD appointed him PM.

He never worked for us. Some of the Vietnamese insurgent groups worked with the
OSS and returned downed fliers during WW2.

Where do you suppose he got the $$$ and equipment needed to have "the
largest & best armed insurgent group" if not from OSS?

But the Communist insurgents never coopoerated with the Allies reliably, in fact they executed a couple
of US and British personnel, and turned over some others to the Japanese. It was a very
hit-or-miss thing.

AFAIK there were no "Communist insurgents" worth mentioning in 'Nam *at
the time* but yes, some groups (like Ho's) were more reliable than
others.

Another fabrication is that the Japanese forces remaining in Vietnam after VJ
Day were placed under Ho's command. They were under the British overall, and
kept their own officers. They were never ever given orders by Vietnamese, nor
would they have accepted such.

Read the treaty. Under it, Jap forces were to report to local
governments and act as military/police to maintain order until local
forces could be reestablished. In 'nam that was the emperor and his PM.
Then think again: Brits had no significant role in what'd been French
Indo-China before WW2 nor thereafter.

His buddy Ike proposed a solution ....

Ahem. That was a UN plan, not Ike's.

Typical knee jerk liberal notion (c: It was Ike's plan, accepted by Ho
and only then by the UN.

.... Ike's scheme was
to pour so much $$$ into the south, as we were doing in Germany, that
capitalism would easily win. Unfortunately the Diems set up a
dictatorship (vs a democracy) in the south that had majority Buddhists
lighting themselves off and diverted all the US aid $$ to their own
Swiss bank accounts and by the time anybody noticed JFK was president.

... I suggest you start with a good history text on SE Asia.

Naw, I've been fortunate enough to know some of the people who lived and
*made* that history. Why believe some soft-headed author vs first hand
info?

There are several reasons why we didn't win ...

There is only one root reason and that is that the people who started
and micromanaged that war never intended to "win"; they were a bunch of
ivory-tower egg heads trying to put off the election until Ike's plan
could work.

Ever hear about SEAL 1 and the Tonkin Gulf Incident?

umm, yes. What about it?

Then you know all about how McNamara & Co created the GoT incident and
there's no need to say more.

It's a Navy captains job to put his ship & crew in danger. To call the PT-109
collision a ****-up shows a lack of understanding what goes on out there.
Granted, it was not a stellar performance in attack maneuvering....

Prefacing BS with fact is a worn out debating tactic. Getting your boat
ran over *accidentally* is called a ****-up "out there". Seek out some
USN Officers who have little gold stars indicating command and ask them
how "career enhancing" that'd be.

Vito wrote:


JFK DID close the bases in Turkey

Yep... some of them.

and we DID have a massive first strike
capability that Kruschev was very much aware of

Yep again. Which JFK did not give up.


so I believe Kruschev
this time.

That makes you a willing participant in what Lenin (real name Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov) fondly called
'dialectic materialism.' Look it up.


At least he never claimed to be a jelly donut (c:

Good point.



The Emperor Bao Dai (sp?) established a Brit-type constitutional
monarchy with Ho as everybody calls him) as PM.

Never happened. Bao Dai *did* appoint Diem as his Prime Minister at one point, not Uncle Ho. The Communist
insurgents perceived the Emperor as a French colonialist puppet (which he most likely was).



His command of the largest & best armed insurgent group put him in position to assume power.

Yup, that's why BD appointed him PM.

You need to do some reading, or perhaps talk to somebody who actually knows history instead of making it up.



He never worked for us. Some of the Vietnamese insurgent groups worked with the
OSS and returned downed fliers during WW2.

Where do you suppose he got the $$$ and equipment needed to have "the
largest & best armed insurgent group" if not from OSS?

Umm... from the Comintern? Russia's support of the Viet Mihn (and several other South East Asian insurgent
groups) is well documented. Ho Chi Mihn studied in Moscow. He was a well travelled man, he also spent time in
Paris & New York.




AFAIK there were no "Communist insurgents" worth mentioning in 'Nam *at
the time*

In that case, you don't know squat.

The insurgency against the French started before the French so much as completed their conquest of Viet Nam.
There were self-proclaimed Communist insurgents & revolutionaries in Viet Nam in the 1920s.

Again, you need to learn some real history instead of the made-up kind.




Read the treaty. Under it, Jap forces were to report to local
governments and act as military/police to maintain order until local
forces could be reestablished. In 'nam that was the emperor and his PM.
Then think again: Brits had no significant role in what'd been French
Indo-China before WW2 nor thereafter.

No, but they had the largest military force in the area.

http://www.historychannel.com/tdih/vietnam/0926.html



....Prefacing BS with fact is a worn out debating tactic...

Is that why you fall back on insults & fantasy?

DSK

DSK wrote:

....Prefacing BS with fact is a worn out debating tactic...

Is that why you fall back on insults & fantasy?

When did I do that?