DSK wrote:

Vito wrote:

blew the resulting missile crisis,

Pardon me? How did JFK 'blow' the Cuban missile crises?

He let Kruchev bluff him into pulling back our own bases in Turkey and
elsewhere.
According to Kruchev (years later of course) that's exactly what he
wanted and the whole thing was a bluff to get it. He'd never have gone
to war over Castro because the US had a sizable first strike capability
at the time.

screwed up Ike's plan in Nam then started the
Nam war to avoid loosing another country to communism,

Huh. Did Ike have a 'plan' in Viet Nam, ...

Actually, a very good one. Ho worked for us during WW2 and became Prime
Minister of all Vietnam after that war. When the French tried to return
he had Japanese troops, placed under his temporary command by the treaty
signed aboard Missouri, inter them and send them home. But the Japs
left, the French returned and Ho's pleas that we take over a we did in
the Philippines went unanswered. So he whipped the frogs himself, but
then didn't know what to do. He knew that people in western democracies
lived better than folks under communism but commies had helped him when
we wouldn't. His buddy Ike proposed a solution: temporarily split the
country, communist north and capitalist south, then after a few years (5
IIRC) let the people decide in a reunifying election. Ike's scheme was
to pour so much $$$ into the south, as we were doing in Germany, that
capitalism would easily win. Unfortunately the Diems set up a
dictatorship (vs a democracy) in the south that had majority Buddhists
lighting themselves off and diverted all the US aid $$ to their own
Swiss bank accounts and by the time anybody noticed JFK was president.
Despite CIA warnings, JFK dawdled until election polls were showing
commies by a landslide. Then he whacked Diem and had his replacement
refuse to hold the election, which triggered an uprising, then left for
Dallas neer to return. His Whiz Kids decided to send US troops to buy
time to recover Ike's plan but *never ever win* else we'd be perceived
as "just like the French". That got a lot of American and Vietnamese
kids killed but that didn't matter - few of them were Harvard grads,
right? So now you know why the US military never won the Vietnam war.
Ever hear about SEAL 1 and the Tonkin Gulf Incident?

Yep. But was that enough to justify shooting him?

If you made a list of all the people you would NOT want ****ed at you at
that time you'd find that JFK had crapped on all of them. He was Irish
Mafia. He screwed up the plan to put the mob back in charge of Cuba, and
got a bunch of CIA types killed. He P'd off the KKK. He tried to fire J
Edgar. Etc. Would you want the *old* CIA, Mafia, KKK and FBI all wishing
you dead?


But then, to many people, facts are irrelevant.

Yes, and that's why JFK remains popular.

I suggest the opposite.

I'd disagree. His luster may be tarnished but the average dude in the
street ranks him right up there with Reagan ... which suggests *most*
people will believe anything,, as long as it caters to their ignorance &
prejudices.

The other day, somebody shoved a farcical hatchet piece on JFK at me. It
basically said that the whole PT-109 incident was fictional and was a
deliberate attempt by the Navy to boost JFK's future political career.

That's sad. He f'd up and got his boat ran over but then he performed
heroically to save what he could of the situation. Give him that, and
the space program and the end of Jim Crow.

Pardon me? How did JFK 'blow' the Cuban missile crises?

Vito wrote:
He let Kruchev bluff him into pulling back our own bases in Turkey and
elsewhere.
According to Kruchev (years later of course) that's exactly what he
wanted and the whole thing was a bluff to get it. He'd never have gone
to war over Castro because the US had a sizable first strike capability
at the time.

Oh yeah, right.... and Kruschev always tells the truth, 100%... here is a fine
how-de-do, in order to smear a US President you accept Communist propaganda...
that's really 'conservative' isn't it.



Huh. Did Ike have a 'plan' in Viet Nam, ...

Actually, a very good one. Ho worked for us during WW2 and became Prime
Minister of all Vietnam after that war. When the French tried to return
he had Japanese troops, placed under his temporary command by the treaty
signed aboard Missouri, inter them and send them home. But the Japs
left, the French returned and Ho's pleas that we take over a we did in
the Philippines went unanswered. So he whipped the frogs himself, but
then didn't know what to do. He knew that people in western democracies
lived better than folks under communism but commies had helped him when
we wouldn't.

So far, an interesting mix of near-truth and total fantasy. Ho Chi Mihn (an
alias, the man's real name is believed to be Ngyen Ai Quoc) did not 'become
Prime Minister of all Vietnam.' No such office then or now. His command of th
elargest & best armed insurgent group put him in position to assume power. He
never worked for us. Some of the Vietnamese insurgent groups worked with the
OSS and returned downed fliers during WW2. But the Communist insurgents never
coopoerated with the Allies reliably, in fact they executed a couple of US and
British personnel, and turned over some others to the Japanese. It was a very
hit-or-miss thing.

Another fabrication is that the Japanese forces remaining in Vietnam after VJ
Day were placed under Ho's command. They were under the British overall, and
kept their own officers. They were never ever given orders by Vietnamese, nor
would they have accepted such.


His buddy Ike proposed a solution: temporarily split the
country, communist north and capitalist south, then after a few years (5
IIRC) let the people decide in a reunifying election.

Ahem. That was a UN plan, not Ike's.


.... Ike's scheme was
to pour so much $$$ into the south, as we were doing in Germany, that
capitalism would easily win. Unfortunately the Diems set up a
dictatorship (vs a democracy) in the south that had majority Buddhists
lighting themselves off and diverted all the US aid $$ to their own
Swiss bank accounts and by the time anybody noticed JFK was president.

Another mix of near-truth and bizarre fantasy. If you can read, I suggest you
start with a good history text on SE Asia.



.... So now you know why the US military never won the Vietnam war.

There are several reasons why we didn't win (it was pretty close to a tie,
actually, but what is that worth?)


Ever hear about SEAL 1 and the Tonkin Gulf Incident?

umm, yes. What about it?



Yep. But was that enough to justify shooting him?

If you made a list of all the people you would NOT want ****ed at you at
that time you'd find that JFK had crapped on all of them. He was Irish
Mafia. He screwed up the plan to put the mob back in charge of Cuba, and
got a bunch of CIA types killed. He P'd off the KKK. He tried to fire J
Edgar. Etc. Would you want the *old* CIA, Mafia, KKK and FBI all wishing
you dead?

If I were President (which I don't want to be) I'd tread somewhat lightly here
but most of these people (especially Hoover and the KKK) *ought* to have been
stomped & flushed.


The other day, somebody shoved a farcical hatchet piece on JFK at me. It
basically said that the whole PT-109 incident was fictional and was a
deliberate attempt by the Navy to boost JFK's future political career.

That's sad. He f'd up and got his boat ran over

It's a Navy captains job to put his ship & crew in danger. To call the PT-109
collision a ****-up shows a lack of understanding what goes on out there.
Granted, it was not a stellar performance in attack maneuvering....

but then he performed
heroically to save what he could of the situation. Give him that, and
the space program and the end of Jim Crow.

Agreed. Plus all that other stuff.

DSK

Besides, the missiles in Turkey were outdated at the time
of removal. Obviously, we didn't need them.

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Pardon me? How did JFK 'blow' the Cuban missile crises?

Vito wrote:
He let Kruchev bluff him into pulling back our own bases in Turkey and
elsewhere.
According to Kruchev (years later of course) that's exactly what he
wanted and the whole thing was a bluff to get it. He'd never have gone
to war over Castro because the US had a sizable first strike capability
at the time.

Oh yeah, right.... and Kruschev always tells the truth, 100%... here is a
fine
how-de-do, in order to smear a US President you accept Communist
propaganda...
that's really 'conservative' isn't it.



Huh. Did Ike have a 'plan' in Viet Nam, ...

Actually, a very good one. Ho worked for us during WW2 and became Prime
Minister of all Vietnam after that war. When the French tried to return
he had Japanese troops, placed under his temporary command by the treaty
signed aboard Missouri, inter them and send them home. But the Japs
left, the French returned and Ho's pleas that we take over a we did in
the Philippines went unanswered. So he whipped the frogs himself, but
then didn't know what to do. He knew that people in western democracies
lived better than folks under communism but commies had helped him when
we wouldn't.

So far, an interesting mix of near-truth and total fantasy. Ho Chi Mihn
(an
alias, the man's real name is believed to be Ngyen Ai Quoc) did not
'become
Prime Minister of all Vietnam.' No such office then or now. His command of
th
elargest & best armed insurgent group put him in position to assume power.
He
never worked for us. Some of the Vietnamese insurgent groups worked with
the
OSS and returned downed fliers during WW2. But the Communist insurgents
never
coopoerated with the Allies reliably, in fact they executed a couple of US
and
British personnel, and turned over some others to the Japanese. It was a
very
hit-or-miss thing.

Another fabrication is that the Japanese forces remaining in Vietnam after
VJ
Day were placed under Ho's command. They were under the British overall,
and
kept their own officers. They were never ever given orders by Vietnamese,
nor
would they have accepted such.


His buddy Ike proposed a solution: temporarily split the
country, communist north and capitalist south, then after a few years (5
IIRC) let the people decide in a reunifying election.

Ahem. That was a UN plan, not Ike's.


.... Ike's scheme was
to pour so much $$$ into the south, as we were doing in Germany, that
capitalism would easily win. Unfortunately the Diems set up a
dictatorship (vs a democracy) in the south that had majority Buddhists
lighting themselves off and diverted all the US aid $$ to their own
Swiss bank accounts and by the time anybody noticed JFK was president.

Another mix of near-truth and bizarre fantasy. If you can read, I suggest
you
start with a good history text on SE Asia.



.... So now you know why the US military never won the Vietnam war.

There are several reasons why we didn't win (it was pretty close to a tie,
actually, but what is that worth?)


Ever hear about SEAL 1 and the Tonkin Gulf Incident?

umm, yes. What about it?



Yep. But was that enough to justify shooting him?

If you made a list of all the people you would NOT want ****ed at you at
that time you'd find that JFK had crapped on all of them. He was Irish
Mafia. He screwed up the plan to put the mob back in charge of Cuba, and
got a bunch of CIA types killed. He P'd off the KKK. He tried to fire J
Edgar. Etc. Would you want the *old* CIA, Mafia, KKK and FBI all wishing
you dead?

If I were President (which I don't want to be) I'd tread somewhat lightly
here
but most of these people (especially Hoover and the KKK) *ought* to have
been
stomped & flushed.


The other day, somebody shoved a farcical hatchet piece on JFK at me.
It
basically said that the whole PT-109 incident was fictional and was a
deliberate attempt by the Navy to boost JFK's future political
career.

That's sad. He f'd up and got his boat ran over

It's a Navy captains job to put his ship & crew in danger. To call the
PT-109
collision a ****-up shows a lack of understanding what goes on out there.
Granted, it was not a stellar performance in attack maneuvering....

but then he performed
heroically to save what he could of the situation. Give him that, and
the space program and the end of Jim Crow.

Agreed. Plus all that other stuff.

DSK

Dumbass, you don't have to invaded to lose a war. For example,
Germany?

Dumbass, there's no sign of it now. Obviously, you were either
not around during that time or you were just as stupid as you
are now.

Dumbass, but I repeat myself.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:24:16 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Horass, I know you're pretty stupid, but even the mentally
retarded have come to understand that we lost the Vietnam
war.

Really? I don't recall their invasion? Did it happen in California?
I didn't see it on the news. If they beat us, why is there no sign of
it?


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:50:42 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Dumbass, you don't have to invaded to lose a war. For example,
Germany?

We beat Germany in WW2 after we invaded their country, and destroyed
their military, and their government, dumbass.

Dumbass, there's no sign of it now. Obviously, you were either
not around during that time or you were just as stupid as you
are now.

Dumbass, but I repeat myself.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:24:16 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Horass, I know you're pretty stupid, but even the mentally
retarded have come to understand that we lost the Vietnam
war.

Really? I don't recall their invasion? Did it happen in California?
I didn't see it on the news. If they beat us, why is there no sign of
it?


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Who entered Germany first -US, British, Russians or Free french?

Cheers MC

The Captains Nemesis wrote:

On 6 Nov 2003 00:04:54 GMT, Horvath wrote:


On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:50:42 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:


Dumbass, you don't have to invaded to lose a war. For example,
Germany?

We beat Germany in WW2 after we invaded their country, and destroyed
their military, and their government, dumbass.



Bwaaaahahahahhahahaaa!
without any help from anyone.

Lucky shot you guys capturing that Enigma machine eh?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

We beat Germany?? I bet you're going to tell me the same
thing about Japan. I guess you never heard of the battle of
Waterloo. Dumbass.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:50:42 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Dumbass, you don't have to invaded to lose a war. For example,
Germany?

We beat Germany in WW2 after we invaded their country, and destroyed
their military, and their government, dumbass.

Dumbass, there's no sign of it now. Obviously, you were either
not around during that time or you were just as stupid as you
are now.

Dumbass, but I repeat myself.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:24:16 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote this crap:

Horass, I know you're pretty stupid, but even the mentally
retarded have come to understand that we lost the Vietnam
war.

Really? I don't recall their invasion? Did it happen in California?
I didn't see it on the news. If they beat us, why is there no sign of
it?


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:05:27 +1300, The_navigator©
wrote this crap:

Who entered Germany first -US, British, Russians or Free french?

The US crossed the Rhine, and entered Germany first.


Hero@Horvath

I don't spend my money on food. I spend most of my money
on women, porn, booze, and recreation. The rest of it I just waste.

Vito wrote:
He let Kruchev bluff him into pulling back our own bases in Turkey and elsewhere.
According to Kruchev .....

Oh yeah, right.... and Kruschev always tells the truth, 100%... here is a fine
how-de-do, in order to smear a US President you accept Communist propaganda...
that's really 'conservative' isn't it.

JFK DID close the bases in Turkey and we DID have a massive first strike
capability that Kruschev was very much aware of so I believe Kruschev
this time. At least he never claimed to be a jelly donut (c:

Huh. Did Ike have a 'plan' in Viet Nam, ...

Actually, a very good one. Ho worked for us during WW2 and became Prime
Minister of all Vietnam after that war. When the French tried to return
he had Japanese troops, placed under his temporary command by the treaty
signed aboard Missouri, inter them and send them home. But the Japs
left, the French returned and Ho's pleas that we take over a we did in
the Philippines went unanswered. So he whipped the frogs himself, but
then didn't know what to do. He knew that people in western democracies
lived better than folks under communism but commies had helped him when
we wouldn't.

So far, an interesting mix of near-truth and total fantasy. Ho Chi Mihn (an
alias, the man's real name is believed to be Ngyen Ai Quoc) did not 'become
Prime Minister of all Vietnam.' No such office then or now.

The Emperor Bao Dai (sp?) established a Brit-type constitutional
monarchy with Ho as everybody calls him) as PM.

His command of the largest & best armed insurgent group put him in position to assume power.

Yup, that's why BD appointed him PM.

He never worked for us. Some of the Vietnamese insurgent groups worked with the
OSS and returned downed fliers during WW2.

Where do you suppose he got the $$$ and equipment needed to have "the
largest & best armed insurgent group" if not from OSS?

But the Communist insurgents never coopoerated with the Allies reliably, in fact they executed a couple
of US and British personnel, and turned over some others to the Japanese. It was a very
hit-or-miss thing.

AFAIK there were no "Communist insurgents" worth mentioning in 'Nam *at
the time* but yes, some groups (like Ho's) were more reliable than
others.

Another fabrication is that the Japanese forces remaining in Vietnam after VJ
Day were placed under Ho's command. They were under the British overall, and
kept their own officers. They were never ever given orders by Vietnamese, nor
would they have accepted such.

Read the treaty. Under it, Jap forces were to report to local
governments and act as military/police to maintain order until local
forces could be reestablished. In 'nam that was the emperor and his PM.
Then think again: Brits had no significant role in what'd been French
Indo-China before WW2 nor thereafter.

His buddy Ike proposed a solution ....

Ahem. That was a UN plan, not Ike's.

Typical knee jerk liberal notion (c: It was Ike's plan, accepted by Ho
and only then by the UN.

.... Ike's scheme was
to pour so much $$$ into the south, as we were doing in Germany, that
capitalism would easily win. Unfortunately the Diems set up a
dictatorship (vs a democracy) in the south that had majority Buddhists
lighting themselves off and diverted all the US aid $$ to their own
Swiss bank accounts and by the time anybody noticed JFK was president.

... I suggest you start with a good history text on SE Asia.

Naw, I've been fortunate enough to know some of the people who lived and
*made* that history. Why believe some soft-headed author vs first hand
info?

There are several reasons why we didn't win ...

There is only one root reason and that is that the people who started
and micromanaged that war never intended to "win"; they were a bunch of
ivory-tower egg heads trying to put off the election until Ike's plan
could work.

Ever hear about SEAL 1 and the Tonkin Gulf Incident?

umm, yes. What about it?

Then you know all about how McNamara & Co created the GoT incident and
there's no need to say more.

It's a Navy captains job to put his ship & crew in danger. To call the PT-109
collision a ****-up shows a lack of understanding what goes on out there.
Granted, it was not a stellar performance in attack maneuvering....

Prefacing BS with fact is a worn out debating tactic. Getting your boat
ran over *accidentally* is called a ****-up "out there". Seek out some
USN Officers who have little gold stars indicating command and ask them
how "career enhancing" that'd be.

Vito wrote:


JFK DID close the bases in Turkey

Yep... some of them.

and we DID have a massive first strike
capability that Kruschev was very much aware of

Yep again. Which JFK did not give up.


so I believe Kruschev
this time.

That makes you a willing participant in what Lenin (real name Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov) fondly called
'dialectic materialism.' Look it up.


At least he never claimed to be a jelly donut (c:

Good point.



The Emperor Bao Dai (sp?) established a Brit-type constitutional
monarchy with Ho as everybody calls him) as PM.

Never happened. Bao Dai *did* appoint Diem as his Prime Minister at one point, not Uncle Ho. The Communist
insurgents perceived the Emperor as a French colonialist puppet (which he most likely was).



His command of the largest & best armed insurgent group put him in position to assume power.

Yup, that's why BD appointed him PM.

You need to do some reading, or perhaps talk to somebody who actually knows history instead of making it up.



He never worked for us. Some of the Vietnamese insurgent groups worked with the
OSS and returned downed fliers during WW2.

Where do you suppose he got the $$$ and equipment needed to have "the
largest & best armed insurgent group" if not from OSS?

Umm... from the Comintern? Russia's support of the Viet Mihn (and several other South East Asian insurgent
groups) is well documented. Ho Chi Mihn studied in Moscow. He was a well travelled man, he also spent time in
Paris & New York.




AFAIK there were no "Communist insurgents" worth mentioning in 'Nam *at
the time*

In that case, you don't know squat.

The insurgency against the French started before the French so much as completed their conquest of Viet Nam.
There were self-proclaimed Communist insurgents & revolutionaries in Viet Nam in the 1920s.

Again, you need to learn some real history instead of the made-up kind.




Read the treaty. Under it, Jap forces were to report to local
governments and act as military/police to maintain order until local
forces could be reestablished. In 'nam that was the emperor and his PM.
Then think again: Brits had no significant role in what'd been French
Indo-China before WW2 nor thereafter.

No, but they had the largest military force in the area.

http://www.historychannel.com/tdih/vietnam/0926.html



....Prefacing BS with fact is a worn out debating tactic...

Is that why you fall back on insults & fantasy?

DSK