No, I have to agree with Bob, even adjusted it is at an all time record
high, according to most news agencies.
"two wheels" wrote in message
...
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On 23 Oct 2003 16:40:18 GMT, (Bobsprit) wrote:

Every news source and I mean EVERY one reported that our national
debt is at an all time high. What's surprising is that the war was
not a huge factor.His tax plan and spending ruined the economy. I
hope everyone enjoyed those refund checks that the country
couldn't afford.
Gore was right from the beginning. He's right not to run. Why
should he try to repair the Bush mess?

RB

I think you mean the deficit, don't you? In real dollars, it's NOT
at an all time high. In real dollars, as a percentage of the
economy, it's about half of what it was in the 1980s. The real high
was in the 1940s, during WWII. It's meaningless to cite raw dollar
amounts without comparing it to the size of the economy. A $300 or
$400 billion dollar deficit means something quite different if it
happens in Bolivia, than if it happens in the USA. Be cautious of
what the virulent Bush-haters do with numbers. They lie though
their teeth. And, you'll be happy to know that the deficit
forecasts keep coming down as every month passes. I know you'll be
happy to hear that.

two wheels


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So what? Does it matter? Of course not. It hasn't mattered for well over
sixty years. Didn't matter under Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagain, Carter, Ford,
Johnson, Nixon (did I leave out anyone?), Eisenhower . . . correction . ..
Nixon did something to correct it partially and Kennedy tried to do so.

Measured against GNP as a percentage it's nothing. That's the arguement
Doug used on me last time. Once you invoke that you are home free. The
rest is just silliness like worrying about five or ten nukes in N. Korea.
Hell . . .I'm used to worrying about ten thousand plus of the things pointed
at me. Neither do I worry about the National Debt or the annual budger
imbalances . .. .

All you have to do to get rid of it is do like the last administration.
Take it "off budget" and ignore it. Then you can claim a budget surplus.
In point of fact there has never been a budget surplus when the books are
balanced. Take a quick look at the Dept of Treasury website. End of
conversation. The rest is just meaningless BS.

As long as the majority of the nation thinks we are solvent, we are solvent
(faith standard versus gold standard or rabbit skin standard or wampum
standard or whatever else). Now of course the electronic symbols on
computer tapes have been given the same status as printed money or (in the
old days) coined money (not since what? 64 or 65 have we minted coins) or
against tokens (look like coins but no intrinsic value).

Let's suppose the situation gets really, really bad. Two types of things,
make that three, will happen.

Employment gets low enough there will be a war and employment will rise
dramatically. Might be a shooting war, might be a war on poverty, might be
a war against kangaroo rat infestations. Doesn't matter.

Individual programs get too hard to handle then the original intent will be
enforced. For Example Social Security is for " those who are destitute".
Read the original law that established the program. Do away with those at
the top who really don't need it and voila! No problem. Course if you
retire on $25,000 or so plus a year plan on getting shafted.

Finally look at the example of Nixon and Kissinger when they did away with
the Johnson Debt. Simply create an artificial shortage of a basic
commodity. Float scare rumours of $2.00a gallon gas, let the price float
from 35 cents to nearer one dollar and then you can raise the taxes on fuel.
Can't tax fifty cents on thirty five cent a gallon gas can you? Scare
people into thinking $5 a gallon gas is around the corner . . .let it settle
at $2 plus and bing taxes can now raise to $1 plus.

Another name for this is debt devaluation or 'your investment ain't worth as
much as you thought when you loaned out the money." That's another phrase
for PERS or IRA or any other retirment fund investment. The whole thing is
BS of the highest magnitude.. .. .and not worth worrying about. Want a real
scare? The unfunded debt of the nation is now hovering around 50 trillion.
Unfunded military retirement, unfunded Social Security, unfunded Railroad
Retirement, unfunded Medicare and Medicaid. And that's only through the
lifetime of the baby boomers.

In truth, the only debt worth worrying about is your own. $10 Big Mac's
anyone? What is worth worrying about is how much per foot is the cost of a
sailboat and where in the world you can make what you have left last as long
as you need it.

Can anyone properly define the term "money?"

MST

The ONLY thing worth worrying about is when enough people say, "The emperor
(government) has no clothes." Once enough people realize the government has
not intention of paying their bills .. . . . . . .

Well. . .no one said everything lasts forever . . But in the immortal words
of Alfred E. "What me Worry?"

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When the economy is humming along, the deficit cures itself. That's
what the tax cuts were for--to prime the economic pump. Tax and
tariff policy is about the only power government has over the
economy. They can slow down the economy with tax increases (as in
California) or speed it up with tax cuts. That's it.

two wheels


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...id=749&e=1&u=/
nm/20031030/bs_nm/economy_dc

Economy Rocketed Ahead in 3rd Quarter
By Tim Ahmann

excerpt:
- ----------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. economy rocketed ahead at its
fastest pace in more than 19 years in the third quarter of 2003 as
consumers, their wallets fattened by tax cuts, went on a buying
spree, an unexpectedly strong government report showed on Thursday.

U.S. gross domestic product surged at a 7.2 percent annual rate in
the July-September period, the Commerce Department said. It was the
steepest climb since the first quarter of 1984 and more than double
the second quarter's 3.3 percent rate.

Three other reports on Thursday also suggested a firmer recovery was
taking root -- new claims for jobless benefits and a help-wanted
index suggested some stability in the labor market, while companies
spent more on wages and benefits.

The jump in GDP (news - web sites) growth, which also reflected a
big gain in business spending, outstripped forecasts on Wall Street,
where economists had looked for a rise closer to 6 percent.

- ----------------------



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:56 -0500, "Schoonertrash"
wrote:

So what? Does it matter? Of course not. It hasn't mattered for
well over
sixty years. Didn't matter under Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagain,
Carter, Ford,
Johnson, Nixon (did I leave out anyone?), Eisenhower . . .
correction . ..
Nixon did something to correct it partially and Kennedy tried to do
so.

Measured against GNP as a percentage it's nothing. That's the
arguement
Doug used on me last time. Once you invoke that you are home
free. The
rest is just silliness like worrying about five or ten nukes in N.
Korea.
Hell . . .I'm used to worrying about ten thousand plus of the
things pointed
at me. Neither do I worry about the National Debt or the annual
budger
imbalances . .. .


[SNIP]


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The tax cuts are speeding up the economy and that's a fact.

The GDP grew at a rate of over 7% in the third quarter.
This represents a rate only equaled 19 years ago after
President Reagan's tax cuts.

If you want a thriving economy just allow the people to
keep their money. They will certainly spend it.

S.Simon


"two wheels" wrote in message ...
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Hash: SHA1

When the economy is humming along, the deficit cures itself. That's
what the tax cuts were for--to prime the economic pump. Tax and
tariff policy is about the only power government has over the
economy. They can slow down the economy with tax increases (as in
California) or speed it up with tax cuts. That's it.

two wheels


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...id=749&e=1&u=/
nm/20031030/bs_nm/economy_dc

Economy Rocketed Ahead in 3rd Quarter
By Tim Ahmann

excerpt:
- ----------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. economy rocketed ahead at its
fastest pace in more than 19 years in the third quarter of 2003 as
consumers, their wallets fattened by tax cuts, went on a buying
spree, an unexpectedly strong government report showed on Thursday.

U.S. gross domestic product surged at a 7.2 percent annual rate in
the July-September period, the Commerce Department said. It was the
steepest climb since the first quarter of 1984 and more than double
the second quarter's 3.3 percent rate.

Three other reports on Thursday also suggested a firmer recovery was
taking root -- new claims for jobless benefits and a help-wanted
index suggested some stability in the labor market, while companies
spent more on wages and benefits.

The jump in GDP (news - web sites) growth, which also reflected a
big gain in business spending, outstripped forecasts on Wall Street,
where economists had looked for a rise closer to 6 percent.

- ----------------------



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:56 -0500, "Schoonertrash"
wrote:

So what? Does it matter? Of course not. It hasn't mattered for
well over
sixty years. Didn't matter under Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagain,
Carter, Ford,
Johnson, Nixon (did I leave out anyone?), Eisenhower . . .
correction . ..
Nixon did something to correct it partially and Kennedy tried to do
so.

Measured against GNP as a percentage it's nothing. That's the
arguement
Doug used on me last time. Once you invoke that you are home
free. The
rest is just silliness like worrying about five or ten nukes in N.
Korea.
Hell . . .I'm used to worrying about ten thousand plus of the
things pointed
at me. Neither do I worry about the National Debt or the annual
budger
imbalances . .. .


[SNIP]


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The GDP grew at a rate of over 7% in the third quarter.

During the same period, an additional 41,000 jobs were lost.

Don't forget wage freezes, salary cuts, factory closings and benefit
losses...all at record highs.

Capt RB

And, don't forget the impossible situation with medical
insurance with 41 million people un- or under-insured.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
The GDP grew at a rate of over 7% in the third quarter.

During the same period, an additional 41,000 jobs were lost.

Don't forget wage freezes, salary cuts, factory closings and benefit
losses...all at record highs.

Capt RB

I pay $230 a year for the supplement to my primary insurance. That policy
cost me 20 years of work initially to earn. I pay about $70 a year for
Divers Assistance Network diving and medevac for any reason from anywhere in
the world. Through the union I have complete coverage on yet another policy
for 120 days of work the first year and 60 days minimum every year
thereafter. So . . .lets see . . . .two complete policies plus the DAN
costs me . . ..carry the 7 and .. oh yes . . . .$300 per year or $25 per
month and at least 60 count them 60 whole days of work. 'course . . .you
gotta be willing to actually work but in my industry there's plenty of it.
And if I was to go down THAT road again insurance for family (any number
from one to whatever) would be another $230 a year with no pre existing
condition exclusions.

WHAT insurance problems?

What? Easy for me to say? hmmmmmm True! But then of course, not
belonging to the privileged classes, I had to go out and work for it.

It ain't rocket science.

Have a nice day

MST

Yes, war spending has that effect!

Cheers MC

Simple Simon wrote:

The tax cuts are speeding up the economy and that's a fact.

The GDP grew at a rate of over 7% in the third quarter.
This represents a rate only equaled 19 years ago after
President Reagan's tax cuts.

If you want a thriving economy just allow the people to
keep their money. They will certainly spend it.

S.Simon


"two wheels" wrote in message ...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

When the economy is humming along, the deficit cures itself. That's
what the tax cuts were for--to prime the economic pump. Tax and
tariff policy is about the only power government has over the
economy. They can slow down the economy with tax increases (as in
California) or speed it up with tax cuts. That's it.

two wheels


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...id=749&e=1&u=/
nm/20031030/bs_nm/economy_dc

Economy Rocketed Ahead in 3rd Quarter
By Tim Ahmann

excerpt:
- ----------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. economy rocketed ahead at its
fastest pace in more than 19 years in the third quarter of 2003 as
consumers, their wallets fattened by tax cuts, went on a buying
spree, an unexpectedly strong government report showed on Thursday.

U.S. gross domestic product surged at a 7.2 percent annual rate in
the July-September period, the Commerce Department said. It was the
steepest climb since the first quarter of 1984 and more than double
the second quarter's 3.3 percent rate.

Three other reports on Thursday also suggested a firmer recovery was
taking root -- new claims for jobless benefits and a help-wanted
index suggested some stability in the labor market, while companies
spent more on wages and benefits.

The jump in GDP (news - web sites) growth, which also reflected a
big gain in business spending, outstripped forecasts on Wall Street,
where economists had looked for a rise closer to 6 percent.

- ----------------------



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:56 -0500, "Schoonertrash"
wrote:


So what? Does it matter? Of course not. It hasn't mattered for

well over

sixty years. Didn't matter under Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagain,

Carter, Ford,

Johnson, Nixon (did I leave out anyone?), Eisenhower . . .

correction . ..

Nixon did something to correct it partially and Kennedy tried to do

so.

Measured against GNP as a percentage it's nothing. That's the

arguement

Doug used on me last time. Once you invoke that you are home

free. The

rest is just silliness like worrying about five or ten nukes in N.

Korea.

Hell . . .I'm used to worrying about ten thousand plus of the

things pointed

at me. Neither do I worry about the National Debt or the annual

budger

imbalances . .. .


[SNIP]


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All that says is things are completly out of control.No economy can absorb
24% expansion a year. Hyper inflation is not unheard of in this day, just
look at Argentina. Also if we are to blame Clinton for todays woes, we must
give Jimmy Carter credit for the recovery then.
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
news
The tax cuts are speeding up the economy and that's a fact.

The GDP grew at a rate of over 7% in the third quarter.
This represents a rate only equaled 19 years ago after
President Reagan's tax cuts.

If you want a thriving economy just allow the people to
keep their money. They will certainly spend it.

S.Simon


"two wheels" wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

When the economy is humming along, the deficit cures itself. That's
what the tax cuts were for--to prime the economic pump. Tax and
tariff policy is about the only power government has over the
economy. They can slow down the economy with tax increases (as in
California) or speed it up with tax cuts. That's it.

two wheels


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...id=749&e=1&u=/
nm/20031030/bs_nm/economy_dc

Economy Rocketed Ahead in 3rd Quarter
By Tim Ahmann

excerpt:
- ----------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. economy rocketed ahead at its
fastest pace in more than 19 years in the third quarter of 2003 as
consumers, their wallets fattened by tax cuts, went on a buying
spree, an unexpectedly strong government report showed on Thursday.

U.S. gross domestic product surged at a 7.2 percent annual rate in
the July-September period, the Commerce Department said. It was the
steepest climb since the first quarter of 1984 and more than double
the second quarter's 3.3 percent rate.

Three other reports on Thursday also suggested a firmer recovery was
taking root -- new claims for jobless benefits and a help-wanted
index suggested some stability in the labor market, while companies
spent more on wages and benefits.

The jump in GDP (news - web sites) growth, which also reflected a
big gain in business spending, outstripped forecasts on Wall Street,
where economists had looked for a rise closer to 6 percent.

- ----------------------



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:56 -0500, "Schoonertrash"
wrote:

So what? Does it matter? Of course not. It hasn't mattered for
well over
sixty years. Didn't matter under Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagain,
Carter, Ford,
Johnson, Nixon (did I leave out anyone?), Eisenhower . . .
correction . ..
Nixon did something to correct it partially and Kennedy tried to do
so.

Measured against GNP as a percentage it's nothing. That's the
arguement
Doug used on me last time. Once you invoke that you are home
free. The
rest is just silliness like worrying about five or ten nukes in N.
Korea.
Hell . . .I'm used to worrying about ten thousand plus of the
things pointed
at me. Neither do I worry about the National Debt or the annual
budger
imbalances . .. .


[SNIP]


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71q1Rr2jByjpLPvlm6yZ/4Y=
=TnEI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

You need a refresher course in Macro Economics.

"two wheels" wrote in message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

When the economy is humming along, the deficit cures itself. That's
what the tax cuts were for--to prime the economic pump. Tax and
tariff policy is about the only power government has over the
economy. They can slow down the economy with tax increases (as in
California) or speed it up with tax cuts. That's it.

two wheels


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...id=749&e=1&u=/
nm/20031030/bs_nm/economy_dc

Economy Rocketed Ahead in 3rd Quarter
By Tim Ahmann

excerpt:
- ----------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. economy rocketed ahead at its
fastest pace in more than 19 years in the third quarter of 2003 as
consumers, their wallets fattened by tax cuts, went on a buying
spree, an unexpectedly strong government report showed on Thursday.

U.S. gross domestic product surged at a 7.2 percent annual rate in
the July-September period, the Commerce Department said. It was the
steepest climb since the first quarter of 1984 and more than double
the second quarter's 3.3 percent rate.

Three other reports on Thursday also suggested a firmer recovery was
taking root -- new claims for jobless benefits and a help-wanted
index suggested some stability in the labor market, while companies
spent more on wages and benefits.

The jump in GDP (news - web sites) growth, which also reflected a
big gain in business spending, outstripped forecasts on Wall Street,
where economists had looked for a rise closer to 6 percent.

- ----------------------



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:31:56 -0500, "Schoonertrash"
wrote:

So what? Does it matter? Of course not. It hasn't mattered for
well over
sixty years. Didn't matter under Clinton, Bush Sr. Reagain,
Carter, Ford,
Johnson, Nixon (did I leave out anyone?), Eisenhower . . .
correction . ..
Nixon did something to correct it partially and Kennedy tried to do
so.

Measured against GNP as a percentage it's nothing. That's the
arguement
Doug used on me last time. Once you invoke that you are home
free. The
rest is just silliness like worrying about five or ten nukes in N.
Korea.
Hell . . .I'm used to worrying about ten thousand plus of the
things pointed
at me. Neither do I worry about the National Debt or the annual
budger
imbalances . .. .


[SNIP]


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