Lifelines
 

How neccessary are lifelines on a small boat like my 18-footer? They don't
seem very functional to me - they barely reach knee height, there's no deck
to speak of along the sides of the coachroof, and they come down to the
sides around the cockpit - there's no pushpit, only a pulpit, and the most
aft stanchion is level with the back of the cabin.

In terms of their supposed function as something to stop people falling
overboard, it seems that the only area of the boat that they have any chance
of protecting is the foredeck. I've always likened them more to tripwires
and I've been swithering about whether to keep them on at all. There are no
spreader plates, so work is required to strengthen them anyway, and making
plugs for the mounting holes will be much less work than trying to make
spreader plates to fit into the tight spaces inside.

Before I make the final decision to remove them, is there anything I'm
missing about their function, such that removal would be a mistake?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

How neccessary are lifelines on a small boat like my 18-footer?

Too dumb. Troll more carefully. I did see a 18.5 Typhoon once with Life Lines.
Pretty funny.

RB

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:
How neccessary are lifelines on a small boat like my 18-footer?

Too dumb. Troll more carefully.

No troll, Bob. As you're probably aware, my only sailing has been in
dinghies, where the idea isn't so much about staying inboard as hanging out
the side. I was wondering, for example, if they're used as attachment points
for harnesses.


I did see a 18.5 Typhoon once with Life Lines. Pretty funny.

You're saying they're not needed, then.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

I sailed for many years in smaller keelboats Rhodes 18 and 19's, Etchells, Solings, IODs,
etc. which never had lifelines, and I never missed them. However, this was mainly day
sailing or racing in relatively protected waters. When I started cruising, in on smaller
boats (about 24 feet and up) I appreciated lifelines. But to be useful, they must be at
least 25 inches high. I'm not sure I see the value of short lifelines on an 18 footer.


"Wally" wrote in message
...
Bobsprit wrote:
How neccessary are lifelines on a small boat like my 18-footer?

Too dumb. Troll more carefully.

No troll, Bob. As you're probably aware, my only sailing has been in
dinghies, where the idea isn't so much about staying inboard as hanging out
the side. I was wondering, for example, if they're used as attachment points
for harnesses.


I did see a 18.5 Typhoon once with Life Lines. Pretty funny.

You're saying they're not needed, then.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Jeff Morris wrote:

I sailed for many years in smaller keelboats Rhodes 18 and 19's,
Etchells, Solings, IODs, etc. which never had lifelines, and I never
missed them. However, this was mainly day sailing or racing in
relatively protected waters.

Which is what I'll be doing with mine - short races local to the marina and
daysails in the estuary.


When I started cruising, in on smaller
boats (about 24 feet and up) I appreciated lifelines. But to be
useful, they must be at least 25 inches high.

Mine are barely 18", maybe a bit less. I kinda feel they're there for show
more than anything else.


I'm not sure I see the
value of short lifelines on an 18 footer.

As I said to Bob, it was more in case I was missing something like harness
attachment. I think they'll be going - time to hit the lathe and start
making plugs...


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

If you don't have lifelines you will probably be more
conscious of being careful to not fall off your boat.

S.Simon


"Wally" wrote in message ...
Jeff Morris wrote:

I sailed for many years in smaller keelboats Rhodes 18 and 19's,
Etchells, Solings, IODs, etc. which never had lifelines, and I never
missed them. However, this was mainly day sailing or racing in
relatively protected waters.

Which is what I'll be doing with mine - short races local to the marina and
daysails in the estuary.


When I started cruising, in on smaller
boats (about 24 feet and up) I appreciated lifelines. But to be
useful, they must be at least 25 inches high.

Mine are barely 18", maybe a bit less. I kinda feel they're there for show
more than anything else.


I'm not sure I see the
value of short lifelines on an 18 footer.

As I said to Bob, it was more in case I was missing something like harness
attachment. I think they'll be going - time to hit the lathe and start
making plugs...


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Wally,

On a small boat they really aren't lifelines as such but more of
outboard boundary markers.

On most boats MOB's are usually miss steps because people lose track of
where they are, while doing something else besides watching for when
they run out of boat. I don't know if the low lifeline is more of a
triping hazard or slipping off without a line is greater?

Just thougth I'd mention that the line reminds you of where you're
stepping

Ole Thom

Lifelines
 

How necessary are lifelines on a small boat like my 18-footer?

The psychological effect that there is something there to grab hold of?
Our 19' daysailer didn't have them but she was deep welled...you'd have =
to really clamber to get out of her and there was no need to go out on =
the teeny piece of foredeck... our 22 had lifelines, if it hadn't had =
them, I would not have broken a bunch of ribs...but that's another =
story....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Lifelines
 

I was missing something like harness
attachment.

We always attach harness to the inside of the boat...I've seen people =
attach to the rails but that wouldn't prevent you from going over...sure =
would be a rough ride, though, until they hauled you back in...

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Lifelines
 

katysails wrote:
How necessary are lifelines on a small boat like my 18-footer?

The psychological effect that there is something there to grab hold
of?

Yup, that's one consideration. As Neal says, though, not having them might
make one more cautious and aware, and thus more careful about how one moves
around.


Our 19' daysailer didn't have them but she was deep welled...you'd
have to really clamber to get out of her and there was no need to go
out on the teeny piece of foredeck... our 22 had lifelines, if it
hadn't had them, I would not have broken a bunch of ribs...but that's
another story....

About the only time I can think that going out to the foredeck might be a
worry is if there's a need to switch from working to storm jib. That said, I
think a harness would be in use by then in any case.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

katysails wrote:
I was missing something like harness
attachment.

We always attach harness to the inside of the boat...I've seen people
attach to the rails but that wouldn't prevent you from going
over...sure would be a rough ride, though, until they hauled you back
in...

I was meaning when having to attend to the halyards at the mast or do stuff
on the foredeck - there are harness attachment loops inside the cockpit. I'm
thinking that a similar loop at the base of the mast might be a good idea.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Thom Stewart wrote:

On a small boat they really aren't lifelines as such but more of
outboard boundary markers.

On most boats MOB's are usually miss steps because people lose track
of where they are, while doing something else besides watching for
when they run out of boat. I don't know if the low lifeline is more
of a triping hazard or slipping off without a line is greater?

Just thougth I'd mention that the line reminds you of where you're
stepping

Well, as I said to Bob, my experience is in dinghies, where such things
don't exist. I think I'll be taking them off for now and see what I can do
to rig a harness attachment point in the forward part of the boat.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Simple Simon wrote:
If you don't have lifelines you will probably be more
conscious of being careful to not fall off your boat.

Aye, that's a good point. I've never felt that I was about to fall off the
dinghies I've sailed - good non-slip footwear and a hand on the mast or a
bit of standing rigging seemed to be fine for keeping my balance.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

I would say not very necessary. Mostly, they give you a false
sense of security at best. At worst, they're a hazard. On bigger
boats, when you're going up to the front a lot, I can justify them
I suppose.

"Wally" wrote in message
...
How neccessary are lifelines on a small boat like my 18-footer? They don't
seem very functional to me - they barely reach knee height, there's no
deck
to speak of along the sides of the coachroof, and they come down to the
sides around the cockpit - there's no pushpit, only a pulpit, and the most
aft stanchion is level with the back of the cabin.

In terms of their supposed function as something to stop people falling
overboard, it seems that the only area of the boat that they have any
chance
of protecting is the foredeck. I've always likened them more to tripwires
and I've been swithering about whether to keep them on at all. There are
no
spreader plates, so work is required to strengthen them anyway, and making
plugs for the mounting holes will be much less work than trying to make
spreader plates to fit into the tight spaces inside.

Before I make the final decision to remove them, is there anything I'm
missing about their function, such that removal would be a mistake?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Well, as I said to Bob, my experience is in dinghies, where such things
don't exist. I think I'll be taking them off for now and see what I can do
to rig a harness attachment point in the forward part of the boat.

Well, now you're not making any sense at all. If you are daysailing dinghies,
you won't need lifelines. If you are talking about storm jibs and attaching a
harness, and if you ever experience conditions where you actually deploy such
things, you'l be glad you have lifelines. They are not supposed to be a wall
to keep you on deck, but they are something nice to grab if you are sliding
over board in the dark on a bad night. If they are not falling apart, God
knows why you would want to remove them.

Lifelines
 

SkitchNYC wrote:

Well, now you're not making any sense at all. If you are daysailing
dinghies,

I'm making perfect sense. My experience thus far has been in dinghies, but
the boat concerned is an 18' cruiser.


you won't need lifelines. If you are talking about storm
jibs and attaching a harness, and if you ever experience conditions
where you actually deploy such things, you'l be glad you have
lifelines. They are not supposed to be a wall to keep you on deck,
but they are something nice to grab if you are sliding over board

So are the shrouds. A harness loop at the base of the mast can be reached
from the companionway.


... in the dark on a bad night.

No lights. No night sailing. Not for quite some time, at any rate. If
lifelines are a very good thing at night, then I'll look into them when such
activities are on the cards.


If they are not falling apart, God knows
why you would want to remove them.

There are no spreader plates under them and I don't like the present
mounting - too weak and too close to the hull. Making up plates involves
more metalwork than I'm willing to undertake at present.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

I was meaning when having to attend to the halyards at the mast or do stuff
on the foredeck - there are harness attachment loops inside the cockpit. I'm
thinking that a similar loop at the base of the mast might be a good ide

Jesus wept.


RB

Lifelines
 

Aye, that's a good point. I've never felt that I was about to fall off the
dinghies I've sailed - good non-slip footwear and a hand on the mast or a
bit of standing rigging seemed to be fine for keeping my balance.

Hand on the mast?
Holy hulkster.

RB

Lifelines
 

Yup, that's one consideration. As Neal says, though, not having them might
make one more cautious and aware, and thus more careful about how one moves
around.

Yep. Good plan. In fact you should carry no safety gear at all, which will make
you VERY careful!
Holy halibut.

RB

Lifelines
 

That said, I
think a harness would be in use by then in any case.

Okay, now I'm positive that this is all a troll!
Whew! Glad that's over.

RB

Lifelines
 

I would say not very necessary. Mostly, they give you a false
sense of security at best. At worst, they're a hazard. On bigger
boats, when you're going up to the front a lot, I can justify them
I suppose.

Still, after all the dumb comments and useless advice, I have to step up to the
plate and offer the only valid statements.
Lifelines are a must and this is why...
You can hang cupholders from them.

Capt RB

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:
Aye, that's a good point. I've never felt that I was about to fall
off the dinghies I've sailed - good non-slip footwear and a hand on
the mast or a bit of standing rigging seemed to be fine for keeping
my balance.

Hand on the mast?
Holy hulkster.

Dinghy masts are eminently grabbable, Bob.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:
I was meaning when having to attend to the halyards at the mast or do
stuff on the foredeck - there are harness attachment loops inside the
cockpit. I'm thinking that a similar loop at the base of the mast
might be a good ide

Jesus wept.

I'll take your word for it.

You have to imagine the scale of things on an 18 footer, Bob. I can reach
the mast from the companionway and a suitable loop bolted to the mast step
would be very secure. With the harness attached to that, I can get right up
to the bow roller.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:
Yup, that's one consideration. As Neal says, though, not having them
might make one more cautious and aware, and thus more careful about
how one moves around.

Yep. Good plan. In fact you should carry no safety gear at all, which
will make you VERY careful!
Holy halibut.

Have you ever sailed a dinghy? Like, with no lifelines, no harness, no
barometric windspeed toys, and no ornamental knives? It's a bit different
from a large yacht - on a dinghy, if you stay *inboard*, you fall in the
water.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:
I would say not very necessary. Mostly, they give you a false
sense of security at best. At worst, they're a hazard. On bigger
boats, when you're going up to the front a lot, I can justify them
I suppose.

Still, after all the dumb comments and useless advice, I have to step
up to the plate and offer the only valid statements.
Lifelines are a must and this is why...
You can hang cupholders from them.

No stove. No hot stuff to put in cups. No cups. Ergo, no need for
cupholders.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Have you ever sailed a dinghy? Like, with no lifelines, no harness, no
barometric windspeed toys, and no ornamental knives?

Hmmm....you mean like the laser I spent a summer sailing? Or like a Flying
Scott? How about an old Albacore??? Lots of fun! Sunfish? Yep...sailed those as
well when I was a kid. Lightening....well, kinda moving away from the dinghy
idea...but yep! Cape Dory Typhoon? Rhodes 19? Yep, yep....but again, they had
heavy bottoms!

Sorry, Wally.

RB

Lifelines
 

It's a bit different
from a large yacht - on a dinghy, if you stay *inboard*, you fall in the
water.

Good Jesus. Contrary to popular belief, the centerboard is not for tracking,
but just a big handle to help turn the boat over.

RB

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:

Hmmm....you mean like the laser I spent a summer sailing? Or like a
Flying Scott? How about an old Albacore??? Lots of fun! Sunfish?
Yep...sailed those as well when I was a kid. Lightening....well,
kinda moving away from the dinghy idea...but yep! Cape Dory Typhoon?
Rhodes 19? Yep, yep....but again, they had heavy bottoms!

So, you appreciate that it's possible to sail a boat without having
lifelines fitted, and to have a good chance of surviving the experience.
Thank you.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

You have to imagine the scale of things on an 18 footer, Bob. I can reach
the mast from the companionway and a suitable loop bolted to the mast step
would be very secure.

Wally, get a grip. I've been sailing aboard a Cape Dory Typhoon (18.5 feet) for
the past 4 years. No lifelines. Go forward carefully and keep low. Now stop
your whining about lifelines and harnesses for cripes sake. And get some
running lights. They're cheap to buy and will expand your range. Right now
you're sailing what we call, a "Lugosi" which means you have to come ashore
when the sun drops!

RB

Lifelines
 

So, you appreciate that it's possible to sail a boat without having
lifelines fitted, and to have a good chance of surviving the experience.

So long as you can swim. Flipping a dinghy is part of the fun, especially in
heavy air when you push the limits. For your little boat? A simple harness is
more than enough and I doubt you'd use it much, unless you want to be a safety
suzzie when singlehanding. My biggest concern with your boat would be a
knockdown, which can happen with those little pokey cruisers. Make sure her
cockpit storage is fixed shut and hatchboards are secure in heavy air.
Now stop it!

RB

Lifelines
 

Well, now you're not making any sense at all. If you are daysailing
dinghies,

I'm making perfect sense.

There are no spreader plates under them and I don't like the present
mounting - too weak and too close to the hull. Making up plates involves
more metalwork than I'm willing to undertake at present.

No, you're not. And no need to get all snippy about it either. Do you really
think there is less work involved in pulling them all out, filling the holes
and fairing and painting the exterior than leaving them on and not pulling on
them until you need to? They lasted this long without tearing the deck apart.
If all you are looking for is someone to tell you it is OK, then go ahead, it
is OK.

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:

Wally, get a grip. I've been sailing aboard a Cape Dory Typhoon (18.5
feet) for the past 4 years. No lifelines. Go forward carefully and
keep low. Now stop your whining about lifelines and harnesses for
cripes sake.

Take a chill pill, Bob. LIS, there's little need to go forward unless I want
to switch to the storm jib. There's every chance that I might be late in
making that decision and there could be a big enough chop to make it risky.
If that happens, I'll use the harness and move with the same care and
balance that kept me alive during my days of technical rock climbing. The
estuary is generally quite calm, but I've seen it get bad enough for rescue
boats to struggle.


And get some running lights. They're cheap to buy and
will expand your range. Right now you're sailing what we call, a
"Lugosi" which means you have to come ashore when the sun drops!

I'm aware of that. Lights are some way in the future - no electrics at
present, so I'm kinda waiting to see if battery-powered LED types are an
option.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:
So, you appreciate that it's possible to sail a boat without having
lifelines fitted, and to have a good chance of surviving the
experience.

So long as you can swim. Flipping a dinghy is part of the fun,
especially in heavy air when you push the limits.

Absolutely.


For your little
boat? A simple harness is more than enough and I doubt you'd use it
much, unless you want to be a safety suzzie when singlehanding.

More for if the weather gets bad. The estuary near the marina narrows and
occasionally gets very choppy.



My
biggest concern with your boat would be a knockdown, which can happen
with those little pokey cruisers. Make sure her cockpit storage is
fixed shut and hatchboards are secure in heavy air.

Yup. Cockpit lockers have cleatable retaining/locking cords. The
companionway hatch is one of those loose boards things which I want to
improve on, and the internal sofa lockers need looking at as well.


Now stop it!

But I can't - you're on the line and tugging beautifully!


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Dinghy masts are eminently grabbable, Bob.

Great gadzooks.

RB

Lifelines
 

SkitchNYC wrote:

No, you're not. And no need to get all snippy about it either. Do
you really think there is less work involved in pulling them all out,
filling the holes and fairing and painting the exterior than leaving
them on and not pulling on them until you need to?

The stanchion bases leak - they're all coming off anyway. The question is
what to do afterwards. I don't intend to fill and fair - I'll plug them with
flanged bolts. That way, if I feel later that I do want to have lifelines,
the plugging can be reversed with the minimum of hassle. Fitting 18 bolts
with a squirt of sealer on each one is the easiest way to deal with it at
present.


They lasted this long without tearing the deck apart.

I might not be the most expert sailor on the planet, but I know crap
engineering when I see it. The fittings are horrible. Whoever put them on
didn't even use penny washers on the 1/4" bolts to at least give a semblence
of trying to spread the load. The outer bolts are so close to the side that
a penny washer wouldn't fit anyway (can't even get a socket on the nut -
have to use an open ended spanner, turning bit by bit). There's mild crazing
on the internal gelcoat around the fixing holes due to the localised
compression.

It seems to me that their present state makes them a liability. The fact
that they've lasted this long is no indication that they're in any way up to
the job. Rather, I would take that as a sign that nobody has ever grabbed a
hold of a lifeline while falling overboard.


If all you are looking for is
someone to tell you it is OK, then go ahead, it is OK.

If you look at the original post, you'll see that I was trying to find out
if there was something I might be missing with regard to the purpose of
lifelines and how they're used. That isn't the same as looking for someone
to tell me it's okay, that's a sanity check for someone who has no
experience of boats with roofs.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

The stanchion bases leak - they're all coming off anyway.

Don't know whether to laugh or cry...wait...it's coming to me....

BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

RB

Lifelines
 

Fitting 18 bolts
with a squirt of sealer on each one is the easiest way to deal with it at
present.

Stand by for the next installment of "Wally's This Ruined Old Boat."

RB

Lifelines
 

If you look at the original post, you'll see that I was trying to find out
if there was something I might be missing with regard to the purpose of
lifelines and how they're used.

This was Wally's best troll EVER!
4 stars!


RB

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:

The stanchion bases leak - they're all coming off anyway.

Don't know whether to laugh or cry...wait...it's coming to me....

Well, it is a '72 boat, and not as well cared for as it could have been. Did
I mention the original sealer? It's that hessain fabric stuff with some sort
of non-setting gunk that plumbers use. (Go on, have another laugh!)


BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

Enjoy your rainy sail, Bob - don't forget the foulies.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Lifelines
 

Bobsprit wrote:
If you look at the original post, you'll see that I was trying to
find out if there was something I might be missing with regard to the
purpose of lifelines and how they're used.

This was Wally's best troll EVER!
4 stars!

I am but a sweet, innocent, fresh-faced n00b.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.