Inherently beautiful.
 

Are you saying that my 18 footer can't do damage?

Based on what you've shown in this forum, I'm quite sure that it will.
Ramming speed!

RB

Inherently beautiful.
 

"Capt. Mooron" wrote:

Do you think you could maneuver as handily in a full keeled sailboat with no
engine in an area like that or are you addressing this to dual screws and
bow thrusters??

A boat with twin screws doesn't need bow thrusters, unless it's bigger than 60
or 70 feet, or has too much windage.



Until you can competently maneuver a boat under sail in tight areas....
making a claim of ability based on power driven propulsion falls short of
having any bearing on the subject at hand.

Agreed.

I've had the helm on some fairly
large motor boats in my life and none proved to be very difficult to
maneuver or place to a dock in any conditions.

Depends on what you mean by "any conditions." With a cross wind or current, a
single screw boat can be a handful. There are times when we put our tugboat at
the T head rather than attempt the slip. Other times we have warped the boat
around the corner and so on. Of course, at some point in the hopefully
not-too-distant future, we'll have a bow thurster and that will expand the
envelope.


[ Okay so maybe 90 ft boats
and ferries with a barge attached aren't that big to you.... they're big to
me! ;-)...]

They can also count on other boats keeping well clear, which is not true of
smaller fry.

BTW when discussing maneuvering full-keel boats, bear in mind that some are more
maneuverable than others. Yours has a cutaway forefoot and should be pretty
handy. Some full keelers are almost as maneuverable as a brick barn.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Inherently beautiful.
 

boat was damaged from anyone trying that would be to take their boat away
from them by lawsuit. Negligence is the word I would recommend using. Then
sell one boat and buy more toys courtesy of the idiot.


Has Jason Faulkner returned to us?



katysails wrote:
JN,
You need to visit yacht clubs on race night....not only do they all sail in and out without their auxiliary, they also never crash into each other...

I wouldn't say "never." How about 'rarely crash into each other' instead?

DSK

Inherently beautiful.
 

You are one very stupid piece of ****. You don't know me or anything about
me. I'm tired of you imbiciles, you can just continue hanging out in front
of your computers and playing with yourselves. You're always on this
newsgroup so you can't possibly ever be doing any boating of any kind, power
or sail.

Inherently beautiful.
 

JN wrote:

You don't know me or anything about
me.

Actually, I do know something about you. Does that make you nervous?


I'm tired of you imbiciles, you can just continue hanging out in front
of your computers and playing with yourselves.

Speaking from experience?


You're always on this
newsgroup so you can't possibly ever be doing any boating of any kind, power
or sail.

Wrong again. You're 1 for 3, not such a bad batting average.

Don't go away mad, just go away. I think there's an empty chair right next to
JAXAshby....

DSK

Inherently beautiful.
 

It's mainly a question of what you have to work with and what you get
used to doing.
Even if you only have one or two feet to spare, if you can learn to use
those one or two feet, in time, it will feel easy.
My sympathy goes to the boater who only gets to boat on weekends for a
few months a year .... no matter how good they are or how good they get,
they'll always be in a stronger learning curve than the person doing it
frequently all week and all year .... watch some lobsterman or fisherman
who goes out daily. In a high percentage of cases, around a dock,
they'll be a pure pleasure to watch.

otn

The Carrolls wrote:
I get a 30' out with 35 ' clearance all the time, several times a week.
wrote in message
...

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...

LOL If you guys are worried about 40'-50' clearances, I'd hate to see
what you'll be like when things get close. ...... course, in Neal's
case, doubt he could work around any docks .... probably why he's at a
mooring (anchors as close as he can, then hops into his dingy and runs a
line to his mooring)

otn

C'mon, be fair.

Getting a 33 ft boat out of a berth when there is only 40 ft behind her,

is

not easy.


Regards


Donal
--

Inherently beautiful.
 

DSK wrote:

In harbors the world over. I mean everywhere, We all know where they put
Multi-Hulls. on the very end slips of finger piers or bouyed mooring.

The Captains Nemesis wrote:
Interesting.
Here the cats tend to be deep into the marinas (other than casuals)
because they have the ability to turn in there own length under power


No doubt that cats under power with wide spaced twin engines are very
maneuverable under power.


Let's face facts; a Multi trying to manouver ( Over even making a simple
turn in tight quarters) is not a pretty thing. Even under power.

Skilled hands make light work under power. Juggling thrust can walk a
cat sideways and maneuver in ways that monos can only dream.


I'd like to see that. Theory suggests that with small props & rudders, prop
walk and kick aren't going to move it sideways much. In practice??

Interesting .... I'd have thought the opposite.
Since "walking" is highly dependent on rudder power and most sailboats
tend to have better than average power in this area and a "cat" doesn't
tend to have a great deal of wetted area and or windage (exceptions
noted), I'd have guess them to be good candidates for "walking".

otn

Inherently beautiful.
 

.... Theory suggests that with small props & rudders, prop
walk and kick aren't going to move it sideways much. In practice??


otnmbrd wrote:
Interesting .... I'd have thought the opposite.
Since "walking" is highly dependent on rudder power and most sailboats
tend to have better than average power in this area and a "cat" doesn't
tend to have a great deal of wetted area and or windage (exceptions
noted), I'd have guess them to be good candidates for "walking".

Possibly so, cats do tend to have bigger rudders than motorboats intended for the
same speed range. But they have much smaller motors & props, and greater
resistance to turning. Just guessing here, it does seem to me that they wouldn't
'walk' as much. Maybe I'm wrong, it's happened before....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Inherently beautiful.
 

G Just guessing here, also.
I'd be less worried about the props and engines, than the rudders, and
since the props will be relatively well spaced, what they'd lose in
power, they make up for in spacing and normally in a walking maneuver
you tend to have to keep your engine power down, so as not to "override"
your rudder power.

otn

DSK wrote:

.... Theory suggests that with small props & rudders, prop
walk and kick aren't going to move it sideways much. In practice??


otnmbrd wrote:
Interesting .... I'd have thought the opposite.
Since "walking" is highly dependent on rudder power and most sailboats
tend to have better than average power in this area and a "cat" doesn't
tend to have a great deal of wetted area and or windage (exceptions
noted), I'd have guess them to be good candidates for "walking".


Possibly so, cats do tend to have bigger rudders than motorboats intended for the
same speed range. But they have much smaller motors & props, and greater
resistance to turning. Just guessing here, it does seem to me that they wouldn't
'walk' as much. Maybe I'm wrong, it's happened before....

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Inherently beautiful.
 

Walking and rudder power are intmately related.

Walking is more a natural function of how a propeller works
that has to be counteracted by a rudder to keep it from
having its way.

For example, you are aboard a right-handed single screw
vessel with headway on. The engine is put full astern and
the rudder hard left. The bow will first swing to the left and
the swing to the right as the vessel loses way.

The swing of the bow to the left is a function of rudder control
while the swing to the right as the vessel loses way is caused
by the prop walk overcoming the effects of the rudder because
of the decreased speed and decreased rudder control.

I hope this helps.

S.Simon.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message k.net...


DSK wrote:

In harbors the world over. I mean everywhere, We all know where they put
Multi-Hulls. on the very end slips of finger piers or bouyed mooring.

The Captains Nemesis wrote:
Interesting.
Here the cats tend to be deep into the marinas (other than casuals)
because they have the ability to turn in there own length under power


No doubt that cats under power with wide spaced twin engines are very
maneuverable under power.


Let's face facts; a Multi trying to manouver ( Over even making a simple
turn in tight quarters) is not a pretty thing. Even under power.

Skilled hands make light work under power. Juggling thrust can walk a
cat sideways and maneuver in ways that monos can only dream.


I'd like to see that. Theory suggests that with small props & rudders, prop
walk and kick aren't going to move it sideways much. In practice??

Interesting .... I'd have thought the opposite.
Since "walking" is highly dependent on rudder power and most sailboats
tend to have better than average power in this area and a "cat" doesn't
tend to have a great deal of wetted area and or windage (exceptions
noted), I'd have guess them to be good candidates for "walking".

otn

Inherently beautiful.
 

Up yours, JN,

It's blowing a gale out here in the Northwest. Lost power at the house
at 8:30 AM. Went down to the boat to put tie wraps around the Furler
come home about 1/4 to 10:00, still without power. Now 10:35 and power
back on and I get you **** about sitting in front of the 'net.

I've just gotten into dry cloths.

Predictions of Gusts in the 60's.

The storms are marching across the Pacific like they are the Queens
Guard. Think I have the rigth to Batten Down!

Ole Tom

Inherently beautiful.
 

Doug,

Tris are pretty good at "walking", It is more like "Crabbing". They can
do as well Sideways as turning.

OT

Inherently beautiful.
 

Hey Simple,

Thought you might be interested. This old man was very happy with the
safety lines I installed from the mast to the pointy end.

I could walk out to the head sail, this morning, to tie wrap the sail
for safety this morning. Works great.

I ran two strips of Webbing from the mast to each side of the Bow
Pulpit. I clip each line to the mast base plate when not in use. When I
go forward, I lift the leads from the plate and clip to Spinnaker Ring.
That way I can hook the safety line to the windward line.

This morning, I just used them for balance to go forward to tie the
furled head sail. When I was finished, re-hooked to the plate.

I wish now I would have rigged them years ago. I got a wet ass from the
storm but I didn't have to crawl like a worm on my ass to make it
forward in the blow. Think about them for "Mustard". They are really
worth the effort, if you have to work the pointy end in a Blow

AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!"

Ole Thom

Inherently beautiful.
 

Sounds like a good idea. I even have a spinnaker ring so I
could attach them like you did. How did you attach them?
Did they come with snap shackles on each end? Are they
pretty tight when attached to the spinny ring?

And, what about them flopping around and flapping around
on deck when the wind blows over them? Do they become
a tripping hazard in light conditions when you're not inclined
to use them?

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Hey Simple,

Thought you might be interested. This old man was very happy with the
safety lines I installed from the mast to the pointy end.

I could walk out to the head sail, this morning, to tie wrap the sail
for safety this morning. Works great.

I ran two strips of Webbing from the mast to each side of the Bow
Pulpit. I clip each line to the mast base plate when not in use. When I
go forward, I lift the leads from the plate and clip to Spinnaker Ring.
That way I can hook the safety line to the windward line.

This morning, I just used them for balance to go forward to tie the
furled head sail. When I was finished, re-hooked to the plate.

I wish now I would have rigged them years ago. I got a wet ass from the
storm but I didn't have to crawl like a worm on my ass to make it
forward in the blow. Think about them for "Mustard". They are really
worth the effort, if you have to work the pointy end in a Blow

AND; "I'LL DRINK TO THAT!!"

Ole Thom

Inherently beautiful.
 

Simple,

I brought the webbing and clips and stitched them to length. I
originally planned on hooking them to the gunnels while the sails where
flying and just bring them inside when I wanted to go forward. After
using them, while working on the boat in the slip I found it easier to
hook them to the mast plate. They are a loose fit that way but being a
flat strap they really aren't a problem for me. I don't go forward of
the mast very often. When I do it is to hook the tack of the drifter or
the Spinn. and then I want them in place. As I head back to the cockpit
I drop them to the plate.

Neal, I really don't consider them Safety lines, I consider them Balance
Lines. I'm sure they are strong enough for safety line BUT I hope I
never have to find out.

The clips I used were 11/2" bronze. When It is calm and/or I have guest
or crew that Sun themselves on the foredeck, I disconnect at the mast
and send the ends down the fore hatch, to the V-berth. That clears the
Foredeck just about 90%. I don't use clips at the pulpit end. just loops
which I thread the lines thru after wrapping them around the pulpit like
a lasso.

I've had crew use them as Bow lines at the gas dock. They want me to rig
the stern the same way. They don't have to dig out docking lines and
storing them. They say I could use them for dingy slings.

Old Buddy I'll try to get pictures to you but I'm not to sure of my
photo transmit.

OT

Inherently beautiful.
 

We were discussing a different type of "walking" used to make a multi
screwed vessel "walk" sideways, while DIW, longitudinally..... a very
useful maneuver in tights spaces and when docking.

otn



Simple Simon wrote:

Walking and rudder power are intmately related.

Walking is more a natural function of how a propeller works
that has to be counteracted by a rudder to keep it from
having its way.

For example, you are aboard a right-handed single screw
vessel with headway on. The engine is put full astern and
the rudder hard left. The bow will first swing to the left and
the swing to the right as the vessel loses way.

The swing of the bow to the left is a function of rudder control
while the swing to the right as the vessel loses way is caused
by the prop walk overcoming the effects of the rudder because
of the decreased speed and decreased rudder control.

I hope this helps.

S.Simon.

"otnmbrd" wrote in message k.net...


DSK wrote:


In harbors the world over. I mean everywhere, We all know where they put
Multi-Hulls. on the very end slips of finger piers or bouyed mooring.

The Captains Nemesis wrote:
Interesting.
Here the cats tend to be deep into the marinas (other than casuals)
because they have the ability to turn in there own length under power


No doubt that cats under power with wide spaced twin engines are very
maneuverable under power.



Let's face facts; a Multi trying to manouver ( Over even making a simple
turn in tight quarters) is not a pretty thing. Even under power.

Skilled hands make light work under power. Juggling thrust can walk a
cat sideways and maneuver in ways that monos can only dream.


I'd like to see that. Theory suggests that with small props & rudders, prop
walk and kick aren't going to move it sideways much. In practice??

Interesting .... I'd have thought the opposite.
Since "walking" is highly dependent on rudder power and most sailboats
tend to have better than average power in this area and a "cat" doesn't
tend to have a great deal of wetted area and or windage (exceptions
noted), I'd have guess them to be good candidates for "walking".

otn

Inherently beautiful.
 

And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have daggerboards. Some have
steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely spaced diesels. Some
have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and widely space diesels. She
can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People have told me they could
make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've always failed. I often
have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually rely on getting close
enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the visibility around the
edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a TravelLift the is about 6
inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up to about 15 knots cross
as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This made it difficult to
stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the gearing that forces to two
blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg


--
-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the
deli."




"otnmbrd" wrote in message
k.net...


DSK wrote:

In harbors the world over. I mean everywhere, We all know where they put
Multi-Hulls. on the very end slips of finger piers or bouyed mooring.

The Captains Nemesis wrote:
Interesting.
Here the cats tend to be deep into the marinas (other than casuals)
because they have the ability to turn in there own length under power


No doubt that cats under power with wide spaced twin engines are very
maneuverable under power.


Let's face facts; a Multi trying to manouver ( Over even making a simple
turn in tight quarters) is not a pretty thing. Even under power.

Skilled hands make light work under power. Juggling thrust can walk a
cat sideways and maneuver in ways that monos can only dream.


I'd like to see that. Theory suggests that with small props & rudders, prop
walk and kick aren't going to move it sideways much. In practice??

Interesting .... I'd have thought the opposite.
Since "walking" is highly dependent on rudder power and most sailboats
tend to have better than average power in this area and a "cat" doesn't
tend to have a great deal of wetted area and or windage (exceptions
noted), I'd have guess them to be good candidates for "walking".

otn

Inherently beautiful.
 

Way to go Moron. Another baby doesn't pass muster!

Cheers MC

JN wrote:

You are one very stupid piece of ****. You don't know me or anything about
me. I'm tired of you imbiciles, you can just continue hanging out in front
of your computers and playing with yourselves. You're always on this
newsgroup so you can't possibly ever be doing any boating of any kind, power
or sail.

Inherently beautiful.
 

Thanks for the info.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Simple,

I brought the webbing and clips and stitched them to length. I
originally planned on hooking them to the gunnels while the sails where
flying and just bring them inside when I wanted to go forward. After
using them, while working on the boat in the slip I found it easier to
hook them to the mast plate. They are a loose fit that way but being a
flat strap they really aren't a problem for me. I don't go forward of
the mast very often. When I do it is to hook the tack of the drifter or
the Spinn. and then I want them in place. As I head back to the cockpit
I drop them to the plate.

Neal, I really don't consider them Safety lines, I consider them Balance
Lines. I'm sure they are strong enough for safety line BUT I hope I
never have to find out.

The clips I used were 11/2" bronze. When It is calm and/or I have guest
or crew that Sun themselves on the foredeck, I disconnect at the mast
and send the ends down the fore hatch, to the V-berth. That clears the
Foredeck just about 90%. I don't use clips at the pulpit end. just loops
which I thread the lines thru after wrapping them around the pulpit like
a lasso.

I've had crew use them as Bow lines at the gas dock. They want me to rig
the stern the same way. They don't have to dig out docking lines and
storing them. They say I could use them for dingy slings.

Old Buddy I'll try to get pictures to you but I'm not to sure of my
photo transmit.

OT

Inherently beautiful.
 

G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have daggerboards. Some have
steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely spaced diesels. Some
have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and widely space diesels. She
can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People have told me they could
make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've always failed. I often
have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually rely on getting close
enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the visibility around the
edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a TravelLift the is about 6
inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up to about 15 knots cross
as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This made it difficult to
stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the gearing that forces to two
blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

"JN" wrote in message
.. .
Stupid ****s! I never claimed to be an expert.

Don't let them get you down. We all have to learn somewhere. I learned
how to handle a boat on the water.



And you two are relics,
either living in isolation or accidents waiting to happen. Today's waters
are much to crowded. Today's sailboats are much more advanced, so why not
make use of the fact that we now have auxiliary power.

Don't be ashamed to use your engine. We *all* do it.
I couldn't get in to, or out of my berth without using the engine.


Today's population
is much too lawsuit happy. I happen to own three sailboats. Two are
smaller and my only auxiliary power is a boat paddle because it's required
by law in my state. My 30 footer has the capability to do damage, and
therefore I take all precautions....

..... As do I.


I agree with Bob****, your sailboats are among the majority that never
leave
the dock.

Hmmmmm!



Regards


Donal
--

Inherently beautiful.
 

Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse, Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...
G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have daggerboards. Some
have
steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely spaced diesels.
Some
have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and widely space diesels.
She
can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People have told me they
could
make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've always failed. I
often
have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually rely on getting
close
enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the visibility around
the
edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a TravelLift the is about
6
inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up to about 15 knots
cross
as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This made it difficult
to
stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the gearing that forces to
two
blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

BINGO!!!!

Make a Hole!! Make a Hole!!! I gotta get this Flounder to the weigh scale
and claim my Prize!!!

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!!

CM




"JN" wrote in message
.. .
| You are one very stupid piece of ****. You don't know me or anything
about
| me. I'm tired of you imbiciles, you can just continue hanging out in
front
| of your computers and playing with yourselves. You're always on this
| newsgroup so you can't possibly ever be doing any boating of any kind,
power
| or sail.
|
|
|

Inherently beautiful.
 

Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse, Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:

And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have daggerboards. Some

have

steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely spaced diesels.

Some

have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and widely space diesels.

She

can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People have told me they

could

make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've always failed. I

often

have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually rely on getting

close

enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the visibility around

the

edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a TravelLift the is about

6

inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up to about 15 knots

cross

as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This made it difficult

to

stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the gearing that forces to

two

blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:
Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:

Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:

And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have

steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some

have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She

can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could

make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often

have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close

enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the

edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6

inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross

as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to

stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two

blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

"DSK" wrote in message

| BTW when discussing maneuvering full-keel boats, bear in mind that some
are more
| maneuverable than others. Yours has a cutaway forefoot and should be
pretty
| handy. Some full keelers are almost as maneuverable as a brick barn.

Naw Doug... under power Overproof sucks. Plain and simple. It walks to
starboard with a vengeance and turns ever so slowly it's impossible to
maneuver tightly in a breeze under power without quick powerful thrusts of
the prop fore & aft. I always use some sail to maneuver her. The boat just
responds better to competent gentle guidance under sail than with an engine.
Cutaway forefoot or not..... it responds like a much larger vessel both
under canvas and power.

I've learned to raise a portion of the jib or main to effect the tight
maneuvers when required. I remember running out of wind when halfway in to a
set of slips.... I just stepped into the rowboat and grabbed the bowline in
my teeth to tow her right into the slip under oars... no muss no fuss. I had
a C note riding on the fact I could place her to the slip without using the
engine.

The auxiliary is fine for easy travel on windless days when I have to
absolutely be somewhere. I try to avoid those occasions.

CM

Inherently beautiful.
 

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Don't you just hate seeing your boat suspended in midair .like that? =
When there's wind? I always breathe a sigh of relief when mine hits the =
water or the trailer in safety.

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Inherently beautiful.
 

I wouldn't say "never." How about 'rarely crash into each other' =
instead?

I was speaking more of still in the marina rather than on the =
course...there they sometimes crash quite effectively....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Inherently beautiful.
 

Wow that's a low flat bridge structure! What happens in waves!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have daggerboards. Some have
steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely spaced diesels. Some
have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and widely space diesels. She
can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People have told me they could
make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've always failed. I often
have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually rely on getting close
enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the visibility around the
edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a TravelLift the is about 6
inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up to about 15 knots cross
as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This made it difficult to
stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the gearing that forces to two
blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

Think about them for "Mustard". They are really
worth the effort, if you have to work the pointy end in a Blow

THom..his boat's a 27'...if he feels that unsafe he can just pop up out =
of his forward hatch....

--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Inherently beautiful.
 

Yes.

There're not counter-rotating.

As to what happens when I try to "walk" - I can't quite remember exactly - she just
jiggles forward or back but never really gets and loser to the dock! Of course, I wish we
had this discussion yesterday, I could have tried it out this morning! But as they say
here in Boston, "Wait till next season!"

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...
Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:
Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:

Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:

And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have

steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some

have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She

can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could

make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often

have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close

enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the

edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6

inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross

as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to

stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two

blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

My wife can't watch - she hasn't been to a haul or launch in years. When she has to be at
the marina she goes out of sight! I'm just the opposite - I can't bear the thought of
having it done without being there.


"katysails" wrote in message
...
Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Don't you just hate seeing your boat suspended in midair .like that? When there's wind?
I always breathe a sigh of relief when mine hits the water or the trailer in safety.

--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Inherently beautiful.
 

G May be wrong answer .... when looking from astern, both props turn
clockwise, when engines ahead? or does stbd turn one way and port, the
other? (may be part of the reason for no walk).

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes.

There're not counter-rotating.

As to what happens when I try to "walk" - I can't quite remember exactly - she just
jiggles forward or back but never really gets and loser to the dock! Of course, I wish we
had this discussion yesterday, I could have tried it out this morning! But as they say
here in Boston, "Wait till next season!"

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:

Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
thlink.net...


G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have


steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some


have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She


can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could


make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often


have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close


enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the


edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6


inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross


as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to


stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two


blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

It isn't quite as low as it looks - the bottom paint goes about two inches over the
waterline. Also, it tapers down aft, so up forward the clearance is about 24 inches, and
aft it tapers to 14. This is one of the problems with smaller cats - very few under 35
feet have even a foot of clearance. The ones with high clearance (like the Victory) have
huge freeboard and windage.

Most of the time we don't notice any pounding, but in large, steep waves it can slap
really hard. And since the bottom is flat it can sound like being inside a bass drum.
The first time it happened I ran below and checked the bilges! After a while, you learn
that there are certain angles to the waves that make the problem worse, other angles make
the pounding go away totally. Frankly, our worst day of pounding was our first passage -
6 to 8 (with a few 10s) foot steep chop and a 25 knot following wind crossing Lake
Ontario. I thought we would never get used to the pounding. Now I hardly notice it,
because it doesn't affect performance that much. The snap rolling from beam seas is more
annoying, because most of the time the boat stays level, but if it catches a wave square
on the beam it suddenly lurches 15 degrees. The net affect of all this is that we usually
hand steer in rough going, because once you're used to it you can minimize the nasties
pretty well.


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...
Wow that's a low flat bridge structure! What happens in waves!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have daggerboards. Some
have
steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely spaced diesels.
Some
have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and widely space diesels.
She
can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People have told me they
could
make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've always failed. I
often
have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually rely on getting
close
enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the visibility around
the
edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a TravelLift the is about
6
inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up to about 15 knots
cross
as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This made it difficult
to
stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the gearing that forces to
two
blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

Both turn the same way, Counterclockwise, when viewed from the stern. I think. I
actually had a prop in my hand this afternoon to bring home, and decided that was silly!

But I do know for sure they both go the same way!

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...
G May be wrong answer .... when looking from astern, both props turn
clockwise, when engines ahead? or does stbd turn one way and port, the
other? (may be part of the reason for no walk).

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes.

There're not counter-rotating.

As to what happens when I try to "walk" - I can't quite remember exactly - she just
jiggles forward or back but never really gets and loser to the dock! Of course, I
wish we
had this discussion yesterday, I could have tried it out this morning! But as they
say
here in Boston, "Wait till next season!"

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:

Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
thlink.net...


G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have


steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some


have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She


can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could


make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often


have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close


enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the


edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6


inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross


as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to


stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two


blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

LOL...whose decision was that? .... Oh well, not good, but part of the
answer ...prop walk is negated, when twisting. Still need to know
whether bow or stern lags, when trying to walk sideways.

Jeff Morris wrote:

Both turn the same way, Counterclockwise, when viewed from the stern. I think. I
actually had a prop in my hand this afternoon to bring home, and decided that was silly!

But I do know for sure they both go the same way!

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...

G May be wrong answer .... when looking from astern, both props turn
clockwise, when engines ahead? or does stbd turn one way and port, the
other? (may be part of the reason for no walk).

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:

Yes.

There're not counter-rotating.

As to what happens when I try to "walk" - I can't quite remember exactly - she just
jiggles forward or back but never really gets and loser to the dock! Of course, I

wish we

had this discussion yesterday, I could have tried it out this morning! But as they

say

here in Boston, "Wait till next season!"

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...


Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:


Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:



Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
arthlink.net...



G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:



And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have



steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some



have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She



can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could



make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often



have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close



enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the



edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6



inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross



as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to



stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two



blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

Hey silly, Yanmars turn clockwise looking at them from the stern.

Unless you have a weird, v-drive tranny or something your props
turn clockwise.

S.Simon

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Both turn the same way, Counterclockwise, when viewed from the stern. I think. I
actually had a prop in my hand this afternoon to bring home, and decided that was silly!

But I do know for sure they both go the same way!

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...
G May be wrong answer .... when looking from astern, both props turn
clockwise, when engines ahead? or does stbd turn one way and port, the
other? (may be part of the reason for no walk).

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes.

There're not counter-rotating.

As to what happens when I try to "walk" - I can't quite remember exactly - she just
jiggles forward or back but never really gets and loser to the dock! Of course, I
wish we
had this discussion yesterday, I could have tried it out this morning! But as they
say
here in Boston, "Wait till next season!"

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:

Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
thlink.net...


G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have


steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some


have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She


can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could


make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often


have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close


enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the


edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6


inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross


as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to


stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two


blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

2GM20FC with SD20 Saildrive, bottom of page:
http://www.yanmar.com.au/marine/Sail...sailseries.htm

Also, the props are shown on this page - search for 872880
http://www.penta.volvo.se/files/kapitel45-gb.pdf

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

Hey silly, Yanmars turn clockwise looking at them from the stern.

Unless you have a weird, v-drive tranny or something your props
turn clockwise.

S.Simon

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Both turn the same way, Counterclockwise, when viewed from the stern. I think. I
actually had a prop in my hand this afternoon to bring home, and decided that was
silly!

But I do know for sure they both go the same way!

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
ink.net...
G May be wrong answer .... when looking from astern, both props turn
clockwise, when engines ahead? or does stbd turn one way and port, the
other? (may be part of the reason for no walk).

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:
Yes.

There're not counter-rotating.

As to what happens when I try to "walk" - I can't quite remember exactly - she
just
jiggles forward or back but never really gets and loser to the dock! Of course, I
wish we
had this discussion yesterday, I could have tried it out this morning! But as
they
say
here in Boston, "Wait till next season!"

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...

Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:

Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
thlink.net...


G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:


And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have


steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some


have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She


can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could


make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often


have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close


enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the


edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6


inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross


as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to


stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two


blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

Doesn't matter a Hoot Owls Butt, which way the engines turn .....only
matters which way the props turn.

otn

Simple Simon wrote:
Hey silly, Yanmars turn clockwise looking at them from the stern.

Unless you have a weird, v-drive tranny or something your props
turn clockwise.

S.Simon

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...

Both turn the same way, Counterclockwise, when viewed from the stern. I think. I
actually had a prop in my hand this afternoon to bring home, and decided that was silly!

But I do know for sure they both go the same way!

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
hlink.net...

G May be wrong answer .... when looking from astern, both props turn
clockwise, when engines ahead? or does stbd turn one way and port, the
other? (may be part of the reason for no walk).

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:

Yes.

There're not counter-rotating.

As to what happens when I try to "walk" - I can't quite remember exactly - she just
jiggles forward or back but never really gets and loser to the dock! Of course, I

wish we

had this discussion yesterday, I could have tried it out this morning! But as they

say

here in Boston, "Wait till next season!"

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
thlink.net...


Dang it! That's twice I forgot to ask .....inboard or outboard turning
props?

otnmbrd wrote:


Walk set-up is correct (props control bow, rudders control stern). Don't
think your keel (from what I saw in the picture) is the problem.
Seemingly (but not) unimportant question .... which end lags behind ....
bow or stern? (in your example, hard right rudder, engines clutched,
only,[no throttle] for left twist) BTW, I'm hoping you say bow, lags
behind G.

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:



Oy! You had to ask! It isn't easy to remember with the controls in
front of me, but I
guess:

To walk to Port, Rudders to Starboard, Port Engine in Reverse,
Starboard Engine Forward.

The works with many twin screw boats, but I think mine has a keel that
too long - I wonder
if its too efficient at low speed? Also, although the rudders are
large, they are hung on
skegs and set back a bit from the screws, which are folding. I think
all these things add
up to minimal "walking."

-jeff



"otnmbrd" wrote in message
. earthlink.net...



G It varies a lot with all multi screw (except tractor tugs). From the
look at the picture, I would think she'd "walk" fairly well ( I'm
talking about sideways motion, not prop walk).
Just out of curiosity, when you set up to "walk" to stbd, how do you set
your engines and rudders? .... and which part has the problem keeping
up, bow or stern?

otn

Jeff Morris wrote:



And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have
daggerboards. Some


have



steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely
spaced diesels.


Some



have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and
widely space diesels.


She



can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People
have told me they


could



make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've
always failed. I


often



have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually
rely on getting


close



enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I
have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The
hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the
visibility around


the



edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a
TravelLift the is about


6



inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up
to about 15 knots


cross



as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble
staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This
made it difficult


to



stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was
complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the
gearing that forces to


two



blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg

Inherently beautiful.
 

Yes, I can imagine that. How does the structure stand up to pounding -is
it a cored bridge and/or do stringers and cross braces flex?

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:

It isn't quite as low as it looks - the bottom paint goes about two inches over the
waterline. Also, it tapers down aft, so up forward the clearance is about 24 inches, and
aft it tapers to 14. This is one of the problems with smaller cats - very few under 35
feet have even a foot of clearance. The ones with high clearance (like the Victory) have
huge freeboard and windage.

Most of the time we don't notice any pounding, but in large, steep waves it can slap
really hard. And since the bottom is flat it can sound like being inside a bass drum.
The first time it happened I ran below and checked the bilges! After a while, you learn
that there are certain angles to the waves that make the problem worse, other angles make
the pounding go away totally. Frankly, our worst day of pounding was our first passage -
6 to 8 (with a few 10s) foot steep chop and a 25 knot following wind crossing Lake
Ontario. I thought we would never get used to the pounding. Now I hardly notice it,
because it doesn't affect performance that much. The snap rolling from beam seas is more
annoying, because most of the time the boat stays level, but if it catches a wave square
on the beam it suddenly lurches 15 degrees. The net affect of all this is that we usually
hand steer in rough going, because once you're used to it you can minimize the nasties
pretty well.


"The_navigator©" wrote in message
...

Wow that's a low flat bridge structure! What happens in waves!

Cheers MC

Jeff Morris wrote:


And the answer is:

It varies a lot with the cat. Some have long keels, others have daggerboards. Some

have

steerable drives, some have a single outboard, some have a widely spaced diesels.

Some

have little windage, others a lot.

My boat has long keels, low windage on the bow (more aft), and widely space diesels.

She

can pivot in place very nicely but has little prop walk. People have told me they

could

make it go sideways, but when I've challenged them to try, they've always failed. I

often

have to dock on a face, which is actually often tough - I usually rely on getting

close

enough to snag a cleat, then springing in the rest of the way. If I have a few hands
around to help I can usually get the boat anywhere I want. The hands don't have to do
much of anything, but I find it difficult to singlehand because the visibility around

the

edges is limited.

This morning I had a special challenge - I had to back into a TravelLift the is about

6

inches wider than my beam. The wind started light, but picked up to about 15 knots

cross

as I was coming in. The real problem was that one prop had trouble staying open in
foreword - I had to do most of the work with just one engine. This made it difficult

to

stay lined up. I felt that I totally turkeyed it, but I was complimented by the Lift-
Meister and dockhand, and no damage was done. I found that the gearing that forces to

two

blades to open together had totally sheared off.

Here's a pic taken slightly later:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1616a.jpg