SAIL LOCO wrote:

.... My problem with a loose
footed main is your in a bind when the one and only slug at the clew breaks.

And with a shelf foot, do you honestly expect the foot bolt rope to hold the sail
if the clew slug breaks?? Sorry, but it ain't gonna!



I
just bought a new main this past spring and I was given the loose foot pitch
but I opted for a shelf foot. And I race.

The only reason to have a shelf foot is if it's mandated by one-design rules OR you
get a rating hit for a loose foot. The shelf adds nothing to the sail except a
place to catch rain water. But a lot of people like them better, just like a lot of
people liked gaff rigs better (and swore they were faster, stronger, etc etc) back
in the days when Marconi rigs were newfangled.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

And with a shelf foot, do you honestly expect the foot bolt rope to hold the
sail
if the clew slug breaks?? Sorry, but it ain't gonna!

LOL......... Well you tell me how a bolt rope is going to lift out of the slot
especially when it's held by the tack fitting and the outhaul? There is no way
a 5/16" rope is going to lift out of a 1/16" wide slot. Duh "it ain't gonna"
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

The only reason to have a shelf foot is if it's mandated by one-design rules
OR you
get a rating hit for a loose foot. The shelf adds nothing to the sail except a
place to catch rain water.

Douglas, I never said they were better. I only said the loose foot wasn't
better and that the shelf foot was safer if you lost the clew slug.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

SAIL LOCO wrote:

And with a shelf foot, do you honestly expect the foot bolt rope to hold the
sail
if the clew slug breaks?? Sorry, but it ain't gonna!

LOL......... Well you tell me how a bolt rope is going to lift out of the slot
especially when it's held by the tack fitting and the outhaul? There is no way
a 5/16" rope is going to lift out of a 1/16" wide slot. Duh "it ain't gonna"

If the stress is enough to rip the slug out of the track, or break the connector
between clew & slug, yes it is. Been there, done that..... it rips across the foot
of the sail like a zipper.

If the problem is chafe where the slug is strapped to the clew, then yes your foot
might stay in the track.

The tack fitting is at the other end of the foot, how is it going to help keep the
clew in place? Loco, you're not an engineer are ya?

BTW I used to not believe in putting a relieving line on the sail between reef
point & boom when reefed... but now I do... guess why?



The only reason to have a shelf foot is if it's mandated by one-design rules
OR you
get a rating hit for a loose foot. The shelf adds nothing to the sail except a
place to catch rain water.

SAIL LOCO wrote:
Douglas, I never said they were better. I only said the loose foot wasn't
better and that the shelf foot was safer if you lost the clew slug.

Well, sorry to disagree. The loose foot is slightly faster and (as outlined above)
I don't think the shelf foot is going to hold the foot & clew if the clew slug is
ripped out... the clew slug is much stronger to start with, if it breaks why
wouldn't the weaker link also break? Sort of like tying a kite string to a piece
of chain, and saying 'now I'm safe if the chain breaks.'

BTW the shelf foot of a Lightning mainsail will hold about 1/2 gallon of water,
and in a roll-tack will dump 6 pints of it down the skipper's neck.... one more
reason I like loose footed mains!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I am thinking of converting my main to a loose foot, but am confused
by your mention of a slug at the clew. I have a swiveling tack and an
out haul car on a track with slugs interspersed along the foot. If I
just sliced off the slugs, I'd have a loose footed main supported at
just the tack and clew much the same as every in mast furling main
I've ever seen. I'm not clear on what problem you see.



On 04 Sep 2003 14:04:57 GMT, (SAIL LOCO) wrote:

When it comes to seeing the "TRIM" the free foot has it all over the
closed foot.

By "free foot" I assume you guys mean loose foot. A loose foot does not have
it all over a main with an optional shelf foot. Loose footed mainsails are
pushed today by sailmakers because they are easier and cheaper to build. The
usual 3 pitches a sailmaker makes to the customer is 1. that when sailing
downwind the outhaul can be eased more to make the sail deeper 2. there is a
little more unrated sail area and 3. the outhaul might be easier to work since
there is no foot bolt rope or slugs to add friction. My problem with a loose
footed main is your in a bind when the one and only slug at the clew breaks. I
just bought a new main this past spring and I was given the loose foot pitch
but I opted for a shelf foot. And I race.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

Neal,

I've thought of that self but I don't think that is the case.

I really think I like the free footed sail better. You should know me
well enough by now to know that for the cost of installing a shelve if I
thought it was better there would be shelve on that sail.

I don't think it would be better! Neal, I don't think I lose that much
in performance, if any at all. It is a better sail, in my mind, right
now. I'll sail it this way for now. If I find anything as I sail it, I
will add the shelve. I don't think it will happen.

There is also a third option. As I really get to know the sail, I may
add the shelve and if I don't see an improvement I'll take it off. This
is the option that is the one that I'm considering the most right now.

In real life situations where you're not racing or
checking yourself with a stop watch I doubt you
or anybody can tell the difference between the
sail with or without the shelf.

If you don't have a shelf, however, all you have
holding the sail in place is one fitting holding the
clew. Does your fitting slide on a track or slot
in the boom? It seems to me that a sliding slug
attached to the clew cringle with webbing
combined with a bolt rope that also fits into the
slot in the boom with a separate outhaul hardware
is a much safer and stronger set-up overall.

I'm getting close to ordering my new set of sails
from Hong Kong sails. The shipping is steeper
at 140 dollars but with the lower sail prices it
still ends up being cheaper than Sailwharehouse
and the sails have better features. I was sure
to specify a shelf foot with metal slug at clew
attached with webbing and 3/8" bolt rope to
fit slot in boom.

S.Simon


"Thom Stewart" wrote in message ...
Neal,

I've thought of that self but I don't think that is the case.

I really think I like the free footed sail better. You should know me
well enough by now to know that for the cost of installing a shelve if I
thought it was better there would be shelve on that sail.

I don't think it would be better! Neal, I don't think I lose that much
in performance, if any at all. It is a better sail, in my mind, right
now. I'll sail it this way for now. If I find anything as I sail it, I
will add the shelve. I don't think it will happen.

There is also a third option. As I really get to know the sail, I may
add the shelve and if I don't see an improvement I'll take it off. This
is the option that is the one that I'm considering the most right now.

If the stress is enough to rip the slug out of the track, or break the
connector
between clew & slug, yes it is. Been there, done that..... it rips across the
foot
of the sail like a zipper.

Unless your talking about a different type of slug than I have ever seen I
don't know how a big round slug could pull through a 1/16" or 1/8" slot. Ok I
could see the foot ripping along the bolt rope if the sail was old.

If the problem is chafe where the slug is strapped to the clew, then yes
your foot might stay in the track.

That's what usually happens. The strap fails.

The tack fitting is at the other end of the foot, how is it going to help
keep the
clew in place? Loco, you're not an engineer are ya?

I never said that. My point was that the entire foot would stay in place on
the boom. A sail with a bolt rope, even if the clew slug attachment failed,
would be held in place because of tension between the tack and outhaul. My
engineer (simulated in the matrix) brain tells me this.
S/V Express 30 "Ringmaster"
Trains are a winter sport

SAIL LOCO wrote:

Unless your talking about a different type of slug than I have ever seen I
don't know how a big round slug could pull through a 1/16" or 1/8" slot.

Umm, you were the one talking about it pulling out. I was just pointing out that
the slug & it's strap are much stronger than the foot shelf & boltrope.


.... A sail with a bolt rope, even if the clew slug attachment failed,
would be held in place because of tension between the tack and outhaul.

If the outhaul stays intact, then the foot will stay in place without the bolt
rope, too. That's how a Laser works

My
engineer (simulated in the matrix) brain tells me this.

Yes but do you have a digitally simulated slide rule?

Frsh Breezes- Doug King

A Couple of Points Loco,

Your logic leave a lot to be desired. A free footed main attachments to
the boom are the very same connections that are use with the closed
footed sail. The very same. You the slug on the leech? The Leech
cringle is attached to the outhaul car with the same pin as used for
both type sails. The same for the tack.

I've been sailing for over 50 years and I just learned something I never
realized until I seen it with my own eyes. on the free footed sail. When
turning upwind and you tighten the vang, to flatten the main. The lower
part of the sail becomes rounder. (Due to the bend in the boom) n
outhaul adjustment is necessary. Enough of an adjustment as to make it
necessary to make new mark settings for the outhaul car farther
back`than the normal position for car setting the sail to wind
condition. I've never have done that in all the years I've sailed with
the shelve. I've just never seen it.

Loco, do you just use one weight main for Racing? Do you use a lite air
main? Or a laminated main? A free footed main goes on and off at least
10 times easier and a 100 times faster. If you're stripping the boom
after racing, you really should consider the free footed mains.

I thought I had trim down pretty damn well but my new sail has been
teaching me the errors of my ways.

One of the biggest errors was that the bolt rope in the shelve is a
limiting factor to proper lower sail trim. I'm getting better sail trim
on my new sail. Enough to question the effectiveness of the shelve.

After I get a performance curve made up for this sail and if it is much
difference over the UK's, I probably will instatt a shelve and run a
performance curve on this sail; with and without. Probably into next
spring but stay tuned.

Ole Thom