I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
and compass.

So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake? Should I
start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more practice with
traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and
GPS are rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional
methods with chart and compass.

So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake?
Should I start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more
practice with traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

I'm saying that I reckon it would be easier to navigate effectively *sooner*
if one goes for nav aids first - less learning curve. Speaking as an
experienced land navigator, I can see that there's quite a lot to using the
traditional nav tools on water. From a standing start, someone looking to
use traditional methods only would have poorer skills until the learning has
been surmounted.

I do think it's important that the traditional skills be learned - charts
and compasses don't need batteries. My point is that one is safer with
effective nav aid skills, than with an semi-effective half-set of
traditional skills.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

From a standing start, someone looking to
use traditional methods only would have poorer skills until the learning has
been surmounted.

Well, this speaks well of my wife, who seems to comprehend the nav stuff
readily and far better than I did at first.
It varies from person to person. I don't think it's safe to start with learning
electronics first, since they may fail you first. By far, the charts and
compass are more reliable so a sailor should learn them first.
This is why various texts start with chart/compass based nav.

RB

CANDChelp wrote:

Well, this speaks well of my wife, who seems to comprehend the nav
stuff readily and far better than I did at first.
It varies from person to person. I don't think it's safe to start
with learning electronics first, since they may fail you first. By
far, the charts and compass are more reliable so a sailor should
learn them first.
This is why various texts start with chart/compass based nav.

Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone with
partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get into
difficulties than someone who is comfortable with nav aids - provided he has
learned to operate a battery charger, of course...


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone with
partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get into
difficulties

This is not a safe attitude.
Jeff has also indicated that it's best to learn chart based nav before falling
back on the "easy" electronics. I think most people will agree that full
comprehension of chart based nav is fundemental. Relying on radar and GPS as
does Mooron is simply not safe.

RB

CANDChelp wrote:
Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone
with partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get
into difficulties

This is not a safe attitude.

It is, to my mind, safer than the alternative of going out with only a
partial understanding of traditional nav.


Jeff has also indicated that it's best to learn chart based nav
before falling back on the "easy" electronics. I think most people
will agree that full comprehension of chart based nav is fundemental.
Relying on radar and GPS as does Mooron is simply not safe.

Yet you seem to be happy to let your wife do the traditional nav when she
doesn't have "full comprehension". As for 'easy' electronics, have you
booked yourself into the 'how to operate a battery charger' course, yet?


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

This is not a safe attitude.

It is, to my mind, safer than the alternative of going out with only a
partial understanding of traditional nav.

You shouldn't go anywhere until you can read and understand paper charts. I
think you'll find that most sailors will agree.
You can do far better with a 20 dollar chart and handheld compass than you can
with a 500 dollar GPS.

RB

"CANDChelp" wrote in message

Relying on radar and GPS as
| does Mooron is simply not safe.

This from someone who thinks a "Running Fix" is a stop at the MacDonald's
drive through!

Bwahahahahahahahahaaa!!

CM

Wally wrote:
Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone
with partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get
into difficulties than someone who is comfortable with nav aids -
provided he has learned to operate a battery charger, of course...

This depends a lot on what you call "partial knowledge." I'd agree that I'm happy that
most small boat operators can now have GPS since they will never learn running fixes, not
would they appreciate the "cocked hat." However, they should at least understand the
basics of the chart notation, the concepts of a bearing line, and (depending on location)
the meaning of variation. Without stuff like this, its hard to use a gps intelligently.
Also, I don't remember ever going through a season without at least one GPS "outage" of
some type - either a bad cable or dead batteries or sailing into a "gap" in the charting.
If this happens to someone without basic skills they are up the creek!

Jeff Morris wrote:
Wally wrote:
Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone
with partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get
into difficulties than someone who is comfortable with nav aids -
provided he has learned to operate a battery charger, of course...

This depends a lot on what you call "partial knowledge." I'd agree
that I'm happy that most small boat operators can now have GPS since
they will never learn running fixes, not would they appreciate the
"cocked hat." However, they should at least understand the basics
of the chart notation, the concepts of a bearing line, and (depending
on location) the meaning of variation. Without stuff like this, its
hard to use a gps intelligently.

I thoroughly agree.


Also, I don't remember ever going
through a season without at least one GPS "outage" of some type -
either a bad cable or dead batteries or sailing into a "gap" in the
charting. If this happens to someone without basic skills they are up
the creek!

Wouldn't you say that dead batteries is a more fundamental failing than not
being able to use chart and compass? I assume that, by 'gap in the
charting', you're talking about those GPS chart-plotter thingies - but, the
GPS should still be able to give lat/long, which can be found on the paper
chart. (At no point have I said that nav aids should be a substitute for the
traditional tools, to the extent that the latter should be left ashore.)


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.