Bob, any 14 year old that has played with a flight simulator on their PC
knows how to use radar!

Suzanne never had a flight simulator on her Mac. Could that be the problem?

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
Bob, any 14 year old that has played with a flight simulator on their
PC knows how to use radar!

Suzanne never had a flight simulator on her Mac. Could that be the
problem?

I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
and compass. All that triangulation stuff, having to account for compass
variation and deviation, tides and currents, would be quite a bit of
learning for someone who's new to it. I haven't done this in a 'live'
nautical context yet, but do have a fair amount of land-based map & compass
experience.

A while back, I was working my way through a book called Coastal Navigation
(which is apparently to RYA Yachtmaster standard) which uses a series of
worked examples and comes with a sample chart. I'm about half way through
and have so far got just about everything correct, but I can see how it
would be harder for someone without prior experience.

FWIW, I think that radar and GPS are easier to learn, and should therefore
be learned first - on the basis that some sort of skill in knowing one's
course and position is better than none. I'm not saying that radar and GPS
should replace the traditional chart, compass, tide info, etc, but that less
skill is required to get use out of the hi-tech kit - you can learn more
basic nav skills (understanding of coordinates and how they relate to the
chart) and get use out of them quicker. Then bring the traditional skills up
to match. I would definately have the compass cover off, though...


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
and compass.

So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake? Should I
start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more practice with
traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and
GPS are rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional
methods with chart and compass.

So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake?
Should I start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more
practice with traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

I'm saying that I reckon it would be easier to navigate effectively *sooner*
if one goes for nav aids first - less learning curve. Speaking as an
experienced land navigator, I can see that there's quite a lot to using the
traditional nav tools on water. From a standing start, someone looking to
use traditional methods only would have poorer skills until the learning has
been surmounted.

I do think it's important that the traditional skills be learned - charts
and compasses don't need batteries. My point is that one is safer with
effective nav aid skills, than with an semi-effective half-set of
traditional skills.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

From a standing start, someone looking to
use traditional methods only would have poorer skills until the learning has
been surmounted.

Well, this speaks well of my wife, who seems to comprehend the nav stuff
readily and far better than I did at first.
It varies from person to person. I don't think it's safe to start with learning
electronics first, since they may fail you first. By far, the charts and
compass are more reliable so a sailor should learn them first.
This is why various texts start with chart/compass based nav.

RB

CANDChelp wrote:

Well, this speaks well of my wife, who seems to comprehend the nav
stuff readily and far better than I did at first.
It varies from person to person. I don't think it's safe to start
with learning electronics first, since they may fail you first. By
far, the charts and compass are more reliable so a sailor should
learn them first.
This is why various texts start with chart/compass based nav.

Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone with
partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get into
difficulties than someone who is comfortable with nav aids - provided he has
learned to operate a battery charger, of course...


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone with
partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get into
difficulties

This is not a safe attitude.
Jeff has also indicated that it's best to learn chart based nav before falling
back on the "easy" electronics. I think most people will agree that full
comprehension of chart based nav is fundemental. Relying on radar and GPS as
does Mooron is simply not safe.

RB

Wally wrote:
Given the reliability of modern electronics, I would say that someone
with partial knowledge of traditional skills is more likely to get
into difficulties than someone who is comfortable with nav aids -
provided he has learned to operate a battery charger, of course...

This depends a lot on what you call "partial knowledge." I'd agree that I'm happy that
most small boat operators can now have GPS since they will never learn running fixes, not
would they appreciate the "cocked hat." However, they should at least understand the
basics of the chart notation, the concepts of a bearing line, and (depending on location)
the meaning of variation. Without stuff like this, its hard to use a gps intelligently.
Also, I don't remember ever going through a season without at least one GPS "outage" of
some type - either a bad cable or dead batteries or sailing into a "gap" in the charting.
If this happens to someone without basic skills they are up the creek!

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
| rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
| and compass.
|
| So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake? Should I
| start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more practice with
| traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

Now Bob.... you're reaching with that comment almost as much as when you
claimed to be "helping" Suzanne with her navigation. Electronic navigational
instruments can easily be learned in conjunction with standard methods of
basic navigation.

Unfortunatly you have shown clearly that you are ignorant of both...

CM

Wally wrote:

.... It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
and compass.

Actually, they are easier to gain a false sense of security from.

If you don't have a solid foundation in navigation basics, you can't grasp what
the GPS is trying to tell you.


All that triangulation stuff, having to account for compass
variation and deviation, tides and currents, would be quite a bit of
learning for someone who's new to it.

Yes, but piloting basics are simpler than that. If you don't understand an LOP
or bearing/distance relationships in the first place, then a GPS is going to be
useless.

GPS is only a tool. It's a marvelous tool, almost like magic, but a great wrench
does not make a lousy mechanic any better.




FWIW, I think that radar and GPS are easier to learn, and should therefore
be learned first - on the basis that some sort of skill in knowing one's
course and position is better than none.

Sorry, I disagree strongly. The basics of navigation are relatively simple and
can be phrased in three short questions:

Where am I?
Which direction should I go?
What hazards are along my course?

GPS makes it a snap to answer the first two questions, but to use the
information you need to know the questions in the first place. And sadly, it
will not help at all with the third question. Radar will help a little, with
experience reading & interpreting the targets (the one thing a novice won't
have).

Unfortunately most people who don't know how to navigate very well gain a great
sense of security & confidence from GPS. That's real nice until it leads them
into trouble.... but I guess it's job security for Sea Tow...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King