I've been using several books to aid Suzanne with learning basic nav skills.
Dispite Mooron's comment that Radar is a "basic" component for the novice, it's
not covered at all until (Colgate, Seamanship series and so on)
Some of these books are up to 4 years old. I'm guessing that NEW books will
show that learning radar is a basic nav skill that a person should start with.

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
I've been using several books to aid Suzanne with learning basic nav
skills. Dispite Mooron's comment that Radar is a "basic" component
for the novice, it's not covered at all until (Colgate, Seamanship
series and so on)
Some of these books are up to 4 years old. I'm guessing that NEW
books will show that learning radar is a basic nav skill that a
person should start with.

Bob, any 14 year old that has played with a flight simulator on their PC
knows how to use radar!


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

Bob, any 14 year old that has played with a flight simulator on their PC
knows how to use radar!

Suzanne never had a flight simulator on her Mac. Could that be the problem?

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
Bob, any 14 year old that has played with a flight simulator on their
PC knows how to use radar!

Suzanne never had a flight simulator on her Mac. Could that be the
problem?

I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
and compass. All that triangulation stuff, having to account for compass
variation and deviation, tides and currents, would be quite a bit of
learning for someone who's new to it. I haven't done this in a 'live'
nautical context yet, but do have a fair amount of land-based map & compass
experience.

A while back, I was working my way through a book called Coastal Navigation
(which is apparently to RYA Yachtmaster standard) which uses a series of
worked examples and comes with a sample chart. I'm about half way through
and have so far got just about everything correct, but I can see how it
would be harder for someone without prior experience.

FWIW, I think that radar and GPS are easier to learn, and should therefore
be learned first - on the basis that some sort of skill in knowing one's
course and position is better than none. I'm not saying that radar and GPS
should replace the traditional chart, compass, tide info, etc, but that less
skill is required to get use out of the hi-tech kit - you can learn more
basic nav skills (understanding of coordinates and how they relate to the
chart) and get use out of them quicker. Then bring the traditional skills up
to match. I would definately have the compass cover off, though...


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
and compass.

So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake? Should I
start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more practice with
traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

RB

Bobsprit wrote:
I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and
GPS are rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional
methods with chart and compass.

So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake?
Should I start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more
practice with traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

I'm saying that I reckon it would be easier to navigate effectively *sooner*
if one goes for nav aids first - less learning curve. Speaking as an
experienced land navigator, I can see that there's quite a lot to using the
traditional nav tools on water. From a standing start, someone looking to
use traditional methods only would have poorer skills until the learning has
been surmounted.

I do think it's important that the traditional skills be learned - charts
and compasses don't need batteries. My point is that one is safer with
effective nav aid skills, than with an semi-effective half-set of
traditional skills.


--
Wally
www.makearatherlonglinkthattakesyounowhere.com
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
| I doubt it. It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
| rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
| and compass.
|
| So you think that learning charts and compass first is a mistake? Should I
| start Suzanne on electronic nav aids before she's had more practice with
| traditional methods as Mooron Suggests?

Now Bob.... you're reaching with that comment almost as much as when you
claimed to be "helping" Suzanne with her navigation. Electronic navigational
instruments can easily be learned in conjunction with standard methods of
basic navigation.

Unfortunatly you have shown clearly that you are ignorant of both...

CM

Wally wrote:

.... It does strike me, however, that things like radar and GPS are
rather easier to get to grips with than the traditional methods with chart
and compass.

Actually, they are easier to gain a false sense of security from.

If you don't have a solid foundation in navigation basics, you can't grasp what
the GPS is trying to tell you.


All that triangulation stuff, having to account for compass
variation and deviation, tides and currents, would be quite a bit of
learning for someone who's new to it.

Yes, but piloting basics are simpler than that. If you don't understand an LOP
or bearing/distance relationships in the first place, then a GPS is going to be
useless.

GPS is only a tool. It's a marvelous tool, almost like magic, but a great wrench
does not make a lousy mechanic any better.




FWIW, I think that radar and GPS are easier to learn, and should therefore
be learned first - on the basis that some sort of skill in knowing one's
course and position is better than none.

Sorry, I disagree strongly. The basics of navigation are relatively simple and
can be phrased in three short questions:

Where am I?
Which direction should I go?
What hazards are along my course?

GPS makes it a snap to answer the first two questions, but to use the
information you need to know the questions in the first place. And sadly, it
will not help at all with the third question. Radar will help a little, with
experience reading & interpreting the targets (the one thing a novice won't
have).

Unfortunately most people who don't know how to navigate very well gain a great
sense of security & confidence from GPS. That's real nice until it leads them
into trouble.... but I guess it's job security for Sea Tow...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

BWAAAHAAA!!!!!

Junior high school geometry is all you need dunce boy!

Unless of course you're doing celestial, then you need to know hyperbolic
function and spherical coordinates which is beyond the grasp of any woman.
Suzzette would think spherical coordinates are matching mumus and beach
balls!!!

BWAHAAAAHAAAA!!!


"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...

I've been using several books to aid Suzanne with learning basic nav
skills.
Dispite Mooron's comment that Radar is a "basic" component for the novice,
it's
not covered at all until (Colgate, Seamanship series and so on)
Some of these books are up to 4 years old. I'm guessing that NEW books
will
show that learning radar is a basic nav skill that a person should start
with.

RB

Subject: Radar and Basic Nav.
From: (Bobsprit)
Date: 09/02/2003 04:04 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


I've been using several books to aid Suzanne with learning basic nav skills.
Dispite Mooron's comment that Radar is a "basic" component for the novice,
it's
not covered at all until (Colgate, Seamanship series and so on)
Some of these books are up to 4 years old. I'm guessing that NEW books will
show that learning radar is a basic nav skill that a person should start
with.

RB


Radar is an aid to navigation, that is well learned if one has one, but not as
important to learn for beginners, as some of the other basics, such as compass,
chart work, etc..
Contrary to what some may think, radar is not something you can just turn on,
for the first time, and be instantly familiar and competent with it's usage.
I have seen any number of people using it on a fairly regular basis, who have
problems tuning (and sometimes detuning) for best picture, then equating that
picture to their charts or vessel traffic around them.
Without knowing the basics of relative motion and how to plot targets, you can
easily get yourself into as much trouble as you can avoid.

Shen