DSK wrote:
Frank and Ronnie Maier wrote:
Well, since it's an actual sailing thread, I'll play by naming these
three, as used boats:
Freedom 45 (aft cockpit)

The older cat ketch one? Did they make those as centerboard boats? I really like the
Frredom 40 cat ketches (either aft cockpit of aft cabin, althogh the aft cabin one is
a little on the "pirate ship" -y side) but it seems likely to me that the 45 is too
big.

The "pirate ship" center-cockpit 40 was Garry Hoyt's original design.
Working with Herreschoff, they cleaned up (IMO) the design into the
aft cockpit 40. Both are centerboarders with an aft-hung rudder and a
boomkin for the mizzen. I'd take one of those (there's a nice example
available in St. Thomas, asking less than $80K) because of space
(we're a family of four); but I prefer a more modern underbody, I
don't like stern-hung rudders, and I'm not fond of boomkins as a
design element. We (my wife and I) have, however, been discussing
going to St. Thomas to take a serious look at that one. Skip Gundlach
from rec.boats.cruising looked at it eariler this years and proclaimed
it "Bristol."

A couple of years later, the design of the 40 was essentially
"stretched" into a 44 by switching the centerboard to a fin, moving
the rudder under the hull onto a skeg, and cleaning up the aesthetics
of the stern. I'd be happy to own a 44. They typically sell for low
$100s; but there aren't many that come to market very often.

All of these are late 70s thru early 80s boats.

The 45 I referenced is a newer (mid-80s) Gary Mull design: modern
underbody, cat sloop, Hoyt gun-mount spinnaker, mostly sold as a
center cockpit, although I prefer aft cockpits of which there are a
few, and selling for (asking, anyway) around the $200K neighborhood.

All Freedoms are very easy to sail shorthanded. I like these larger
sizes because of the desire to have enough room to keep our two kids
from driving me totally crazy. My personal favorite "ideal boat" is
the Freedom 38; but that size is just a bit crowded with the two kids
added to the mix.

Swan 441

I'd take just about any Swan between 39 & 45 feet. We almost bought a Baltic 43 back
when shopping for a big sailboat, we both fell in love but thought it too
impractical. And yes, there have been times when I have kicked myself for passing it
up.....

When it comes to designers, I like Ron Holland more than S&S; that's
what inclines me specifically to the 441. I know, I know, pure heresy;
but there it is. Without the two kids, I'd be happy with a
Holland-designed 371. I believe Ron also designed the 391; but you
rarely see one of those for sale.

I've crewed on a Baltic 35 and 39; those are swell boats. If I saw one
for a good price, I'd definitely consider it.

Lagoon 380

Doesn't do a thing for me, you go ahead.

Primary factor for that one is, again, the roominess because of the
kids and then having a bit more room than that for friends and family
when they visit. I'm still pretty much a monhull guy at heart; but the
spaciousness of a cat is tempting when I consider the kids.

As Tadpole mentioned, if one is ever strongly tempted to try and convert a dream boat
into a real boat, the temptation to go too big should be resisted firmly. As a test,
crawl the full length of the boat scrubbing the cove stripe (or some other hard to
reach place) with a toothbrush. If you are muttering curses before you're 2/3 done,
go smaller.

I agree with that advice. "Size" creep has definitely infected the
sailing world. I remember (many years ago) chartering a 28 footer with
3 couples. Nowadays, that'd be considered group sex. Seems like ya
gotta have at least a 50-foot cat for 3 couples! Like I said, for just
my wife and me, a Freedom 38 (or Swan 371 or similar) is my ideal.
Plenty big enough for us. But with the two kids added in, we're
wanting a little extra room.

And besides, Bob graciously gave me $250K to play with, rather than my
actual, personal boat budget which is half that (or preferably a bit
less)! Realistically, my shopping is for a Freedom 38, 40, or 44. It'd
be great to stumble on a Swan 371 or 441 for a good price. Or a Baltic
39. But my wallet would be happy with a Cal 40, a C&C 39, or similar.
The kids'll just hafta survive as best they can while suffering the
rigors of homeschooling in the Caribbean rather than enjoying the
delights of the public school system in the Pacific Northwest.

Frank

Frank and Ronnie Maier wrote:


The "pirate ship" center-cockpit 40 was Garry Hoyt's original design.

Right... the one that he used an oar for auxiliary propulsion



Working with Herreschoff, they cleaned up (IMO) the design into the
aft cockpit 40.

Which Herreshoff? I'm guessing Halsey. He did a lot of good designs, but doesn't seem to
have broken through into the genius stature of either Nathaniel G. or L. Francis...
sometimes it's a curse to come from a renowned family...


Both are centerboarders with an aft-hung rudder and a
boomkin for the mizzen. I'd take one of those (there's a nice example
available in St. Thomas, asking less than $80K) because of space
(we're a family of four); but I prefer a more modern underbody, I
don't like stern-hung rudders, and I'm not fond of boomkins as a
design element.

Boomkins can be a PITA but they can also be great for mounting other gear on and climbing
on. The biggest problem with a boomkin is that it tends to reach out and grab pilings....

I'd prefer a stern hung rudder but very few of the designs I like have them. The
centerboarder will not go to windward with a deek fin keel, mostly IMHO because the fin
gets the ballast lower... but a wider range of cruising grounds and anchorages sways me
very much towards the centerboarders anyway. And the centerboarder performs better and is
more seakindly on any point of sail lower than close close reaching (a smidge lower than
footing).



We (my wife and I) have, however, been discussing
going to St. Thomas to take a serious look at that one. Skip Gundlach
from rec.boats.cruising looked at it eariler this years and proclaimed
it "Bristol."

A couple of years later, the design of the 40 was essentially
"stretched" into a 44 by switching the centerboard to a fin, moving
the rudder under the hull onto a skeg, and cleaning up the aesthetics
of the stern. I'd be happy to own a 44. They typically sell for low
$100s; but there aren't many that come to market very often.

All of these are late 70s thru early 80s boats.

How many 44s did they make? Probably not that many. The 40s, while not numerous, have
definitely been a very successful cruising design though... I've seen them just about
everywhere.




The 45 I referenced is a newer (mid-80s) Gary Mull design: modern
underbody, cat sloop, Hoyt gun-mount spinnaker, mostly sold as a
center cockpit, although I prefer aft cockpits of which there are a
few, and selling for (asking, anyway) around the $200K neighborhood.

All Freedoms are very easy to sail shorthanded.

Yes, they are very sensible designs.

I like these larger
sizes because of the desire to have enough room to keep our two kids
from driving me totally crazy. My personal favorite "ideal boat" is
the Freedom 38; but that size is just a bit crowded with the two kids
added to the mix.

Swan 441

I'd take just about any Swan between 39 & 45 feet. We almost bought a Baltic 43 back
when shopping for a big sailboat, we both fell in love but thought it too
impractical. And yes, there have been times when I have kicked myself for passing it
up.....

When it comes to designers, I like Ron Holland more than S&S; that's
what inclines me specifically to the 441. I know, I know, pure heresy;
but there it is. Without the two kids, I'd be happy with a
Holland-designed 371. I believe Ron also designed the 391; but you
rarely see one of those for sale.

Why heresy? Ron Holland is a very good designer, another boat we almost bought (actually
made an offer on this one, it was part of the soap opera here at ASA about two years ago)
was a Kirie Elite 37 keel/centerboarder he designed. How many medium/light displacement
three cabin 37 footers with 4' draft rate 106 ~ 115??? But that particular boat had big
problems.


Lagoon 380

Doesn't do a thing for me, you go ahead.

Primary factor for that one is, again, the roominess because of the
kids and then having a bit more room than that for friends and family
when they visit. I'm still pretty much a monhull guy at heart; but the
spaciousness of a cat is tempting when I consider the kids.

Yeah, I can see that... plus the shallow draft is attractive... but I just can't too
interested in big cruising multis. Guess I'm turning into an old fogey.

.... "Size" creep has definitely infected the
sailing world. I remember (many years ago) chartering a 28 footer with
3 couples. Nowadays, that'd be considered group sex. Seems like ya
gotta have at least a 50-foot cat for 3 couples!

And it's affected attitudes, as well. My cousin and I were sailing around New England in
his Columbia Contender which is a sound & capable little boat. At one point we were yakking
on the dock with a few other sailors and mentioned Bermuda... one and all scoffed at the
idea of going to Bermuda in that boat, although several of them (including his) have made
longer & tougher sails. Back when it was new, it was considered a family cruising boat.


Like I said, for just
my wife and me, a Freedom 38 (or Swan 371 or similar) is my ideal.
Plenty big enough for us. But with the two kids added in, we're
wanting a little extra room.

And besides, Bob graciously gave me $250K to play with, rather than my
actual, personal boat budget which is half that (or preferably a bit
less)! Realistically, my shopping is for a Freedom 38, 40, or 44. It'd
be great to stumble on a Swan 371 or 441 for a good price. Or a Baltic
39. But my wallet would be happy with a Cal 40, a C&C 39, or similar.
The kids'll just hafta survive as best they can while suffering the
rigors of homeschooling in the Caribbean rather than enjoying the
delights of the public school system in the Pacific Northwest.

They'll definitely learn an 'expanded curriculum.' But there are a lot of good boats out
there, once you realistically assess their capabilites & characteristics and decide what
you want. Too many sailors get hooked on a boat because it's hyped as the greatest this or
the most seaworthy that. Most of them never put it to the test (probably fortunate).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

A man of taste and decernment. Probably handsome, kind to animals and
a mensch.


On 12 Aug 2003 15:32:25 -0700, (Frank and Ronnie
Maier) wrote:

..

All Freedoms are very easy to sail shorthanded. I like these larger
sizes because of the desire to have enough room to keep our two kids
from driving me totally crazy. My personal favorite "ideal boat" is
the Freedom 38; but that size is just a bit crowded with the two kids
added to the mix.



Frank