BoatBanter.com - Stiff helm?

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The Cappys Master wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:41:54 +1200, The_navigator©
wrote:

A modern wedge shaped monohull with a _____free______ rudder? Are you
really sure -have you tried it? Or are you saying that she does not
balance (hence the immediately?).

Hang on, now you're starting to place restrictions, specifying the
type of boat.
This is a general question and the general answer is yes, fin keelers
can be made to sail with a free rudder for some time until changes in
the forces upon her unbalance her. She will need a hand to get back on
track but will then balance again.

Then to my mind she's not balanced. Balanced is when she will sail for
lonmg periods and compensate for being knocked off -like when you sail
to wind with the helm locked off...

Cheers MC

Yes, by all means try to hang on but the winning boat did not generally
broach and that was because the crew anticipated. That is the key to
both helming and sail trim. Not reacting quickly is why it happens more
often. You can even see it in the videos of world champions. Every time
the crew did not immediately react.

They sometimes don't react to a full disaster because they are
expecting that they will ride it thru like last time. They will ease
or trim depending but sometime just not enough and by then, its a done
deal.

hile some human failing is
inevitable, I suggest all broaches would have been preventable.

Of course, just sail slower!

Doen't have to be slower. The boat may well be faster standing more
upright...

In many
cases the skipper/helm inhibits the trimmer from easing pressure early
enough (and in some boats the communication is appaling) because they
think to win they need every bit of boat speed -forgetting that if they
lose control they will lose far more time and she's be faster on her
feet with only a slight heel than laid right over at the edge of
control. As I see it, if all do their job properly there is no reason to
broach -it just doesn't happen that fast.

Hmmm, if every time I suspected that a situation was developing that
may end in tears, I called for sheets to be eased, I'd never win a
race.

Have you ever seen a boat broach with the sheet freed?

Yep.

Explain, cos I haven't.

Oh and by the time most people can get out "I'm losing it!"....its
well lost and you're just in it for the ride.

Sounds like reaction -not anticipating anough?

Cheers MC

The Cappys Master wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:41:54 +1200, The_navigator©
wrote:

snip
In many
cases the skipper/helm inhibits the trimmer from easing pressure early
enough (and in some boats the communication is appaling) because they
think to win they need every bit of boat speed -forgetting that if they
lose control they will lose far more time and she's be faster on her
feet with only a slight heel than laid right over at the edge of
control. As I see it, if all do their job properly there is no reason to
broach -it just doesn't happen that fast.

Hmmm, if every time I suspected that a situation was developing that
may end in tears, I called for sheets to be eased, I'd never win a
race.
snip

In my very limited experience, tears and terror were the norm in
races.

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
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http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:08:22 +1000, The Cappys Master wrote this
crap:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:49:34 +1200, The_navigator©
wrote:

What are you thinking about?

Cheers MC

Gourmet Pizza!

Is there such a thing? Do you put gormay items on regular pizza, or
do you make it in bite-size pieces with toothpicks sticking out of
them?

(I'm boycotting all french spelling of words, such as "gormay" to
protest the french's boycott of American words, such as, "E-mail.")

Ave Imperator Bush!
Bush Was Right! Four More Beers!

In a death roll, letting the spinnaker sheet run free is going to make it worse
immediately,

The navigator© wrote:
I disagree.

You can disagree all you want.

The windward rotation is best stopped by standing the boat
up. Let me explain why:

1. The main is less important cos it's luffing and skying the boom makes
thing worse by breaking full battens -even if it doesn't break the gooneck!

WTF?? The main is not luffing when the boat is beginning a broach or death roll. If it
is, then you have broken all your standing rigging (except possibly the forestay) or you
have found a unique method of broaching and/or death rolling while going upwind.

Blowing the vang on a big boat puts the spreaders at risk, but I've seen this done on
old heavyweight 50 footers and they seemed to keep battens & gooseneck in one piece, no
sweat.

2. The helm is losing authority (that's a large part of why racing
dinghies with plates 1/2 down can control, it better) and standing the
boat up massively increases control by

a) stopping rudder ventilation
b) increasing effective rudder area
c) decreasing the pitching moment on the hull that is stopping the bow
from rising and turning downwind
d) increasing keel grip.

FWIW I agree that boats sail & steer better when more upright. The question is how to
achieve it.

"Standing the boat up massively" is not a sail handling procedure... can you explain in
more detail?

3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is
the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air!

Total nonsense. I guess small una rigs like the Laser and Finn are notorious for death
rolling because "it's hard to do without a spinnaker."

although it may get you out of trouble once the current oscillation
is over. The better answer is to run the pole forward and down hard, and also if
you crew is sharp they'll yank the sheet twinger down hard too.

These ideas just don't apply in offshore racing 'cos you can't adjust
things that fast -the loads are huge and you can't just yank in a
'twinger' (we call it a barber hauler -the tension of the sheet can be
so large you can walk up it) or pull the pole down fast.

That's funny, easing the pole forward doesn't take any big muscle or much time, and as
it goes forward the load comes off the foreguy. OTOH letting the sheet run will at least
momentarily increase the boats windward heel and will drop the speed which reduces
rudder effectiveness. Then you have to get all that sheet back in, by which time the
skipper will not be very happy.

Earlier this summer I sailed a 2-Tonner in 20+ we yanked the pole forward and down about
thirty times over the course of the day (2 15 mile bouy races). We were a pick-up crew
but most knew the ropes and by the end of it we were getting pretty good at it (and also
getting tired). It is not like sailing a Lightning (a 19' centerboard dinghy) but the
basics are the same.

So, how does all this tie in to your babbling about hull shape, or have you given that
up as one of your more transparent bluffs?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doen't have to be slower. The boat may well be faster standing more
upright...

The Cappys Master wrote:
Of course it'll be slower if every time you get extra pressure you
dump the kite and have to crank it on again.
Especially if the chute self destructs as it flogs.

Oz, I think I see the picture. Navvie is confused about whether one is sailing
upwind or downwind when all this happens. He seems to think that the mainsail
will be luffing, and that easing the spinnaker sheet makes everything A-OK.

It would probably be kinder to let him hash this out with Bubbles, then they'll
both come out thinking they've "won."

DSK

DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:
snip
3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is
the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air!

Total nonsense. I guess small una rigs like the Laser and Finn are notorious for death
rolling because "it's hard to do without a spinnaker."

Lady Kate will death roll running square. Flying Tadpole II would
deathroll running wing and wing until we worked out how to set
the schooenr rig properly. Windsprints (Lugger) and Martha Janes
(balanced lugger) deathroll on a square run if not set up
properly. No spinnakers on any of them. Mirror dinghies without
spinnaker are great death rollers. So it goes.

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

The Cappys Master wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:16:43 +0930, Flying Tadpole
wrote:

The Cappys Master wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:59:33 +0930, Flying Tadpole
wrote:

In my very limited experience, tears and terror were the norm in
races.

You should havebeen offshore in the late 60's and 70's!

I should have been offshore full stop. Probably too late now.
Oz, I started sailing late, it's a publicly stated fact.

Hey, don't let that stop you.
Provided you're fit, relatively strong and have the balance of a
tightrope walker you could get a ride.
And it's much safer now than it ever was so even married lunatics with
wife, kids and dogs can do it.

If the Murray Mouth re-opens--given the two-three yuears from now
timing if it's going to--I'll be out of the current grind and
able to budget the time plus time contingencies needed. At that
stage, yes, i'll take her out and do at least one Encounter
Bay/Kangaroo Island/Pt Lincoln/Pt Augusta and back run, but I
don't think I'll set up for visiting Peter Wiley further down in
the circumpolar fringe. In the meantime, it's a pleasure to sail
out in rough weather on my own private sea with the navaids
winking just for me (and the trio of professional fishermen),
bounce and make a nice short day's passage, say about 20 miles,
or even just bang about, then sleep snug and quiet with just a
bit of movement deep in the reeds or in a little willow islet,
and watch the tens of thousands of cormorants lifting out of the
fens in the early morning...

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Cruise the Murray Lakes
http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/mlakes.htm

Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
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I can understand Dougs limited ability to talk abour anything except
dingies but I thought you knew more. Was I was mistaken?

Cheers MC

Flying Tadpole wrote:

DSK wrote:

The navigator© wrote:
snip
3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is
the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air!

Total nonsense. I guess small una rigs like the Laser and Finn are notorious for death
rolling because "it's hard to do without a spinnaker."

Lady Kate will death roll running square. Flying Tadpole II would
deathroll running wing and wing until we worked out how to set
the schooenr rig properly. Windsprints (Lugger) and Martha Janes
(balanced lugger) deathroll on a square run if not set up
properly. No spinnakers on any of them. Mirror dinghies without
spinnaker are great death rollers. So it goes.

Yeh like you sail a radial spin upwind. You are such a pompous arse.

MC

DSK wrote:

Doen't have to be slower. The boat may well be faster standing more
upright...

The Cappys Master wrote:
Of course it'll be slower if every time you get extra pressure you
dump the kite and have to crank it on again.
Especially if the chute self destructs as it flogs.

Oz, I think I see the picture. Navvie is confused about whether one is sailing
upwind or downwind when all this happens. He seems to think that the mainsail
will be luffing, and that easing the spinnaker sheet makes everything A-OK.

It would probably be kinder to let him hash this out with Bubbles, then they'll
both come out thinking they've "won."

DSK

i.e. you? hahhahahaha.

Pompous DSK wrote:

DSK wrote:

Most sailors