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Stiff helm?
Hull form itself should not cause excess weather helm, the hull form and the
sail plan together cause the excess. Since the rudder is also part of the hull form/ clr, changing the ce/sail plan should enable one to balance the boat, even steer it, though I'm sure this would be quite an adventure, especially in strong winds! John Cairns "The_navigatorİ" wrote in message ... Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the hull with no rudder? Cheers MC |
Stiff helm?
Are you saying the lack of 'balanced ends' doesn't make boat round up
when heeled? Cheers MC John Cairns wrote: Hull form itself should not cause excess weather helm, the hull form and the sail plan together cause the excess. Since the rudder is also part of the hull form/ clr, changing the ce/sail plan should enable one to balance the boat, even steer it, though I'm sure this would be quite an adventure, especially in strong winds! John Cairns "The_navigatorİ" wrote in message ... Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the hull with no rudder? Cheers MC |
Stiff helm?
Hull form itself should not cause excess weather helm, the hull form and the
sail plan together cause the excess. Holy chocolate cow! RB |
Stiff helm?
CANDChelp wrote: Hull form itself should not cause excess weather helm, the hull form and the sail plan together cause the excess. Holy chocolate cow! RB Must you thrust your religion into every thread? -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Stiff helm?
Must you thrust your religion into every thread?
Hmmmmm...Chocolate! RB |
Stiff helm?
CANDChelp wrote: Must you thrust your religion into every thread? Hmmmmm...Chocolate! RB It's always shown. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Stiff helm?
Hmmmmm...Chocolate!
RB It's always shown. What is? RB |
Stiff helm?
CANDChelp wrote: Hmmmmm...Chocolate! RB It's always shown. What is? RB Has, not is. The outcome of your dedication to chocolate. WHich is why I was surprised you were unaware of donuts. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Stiff helm?
CANDChelp wrote: Has, not is. The outcome of your dedication to chocolate. WHich is why I was surprised you were unaware of donuts. I'm afraid I can't eat chocolate or donuts...sadly. RB Not to worry. I'll try to get a nice donut wake photo for you on the weekend, there's a roll of film I want to finish off.; then you can do a virtual donut. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Stiff helm?
he weekend, there's a roll of film I want to finish off.; then
you can do a virtual donut Ahhh...that would be nice! RB |
Stiff helm?
The navigatorİ wrote:
All the discussion about whether a typical modern sloop will sail a steady course with the rudder free got me wondering about what 'free' means to different people. That it came with the boat at no additional cost. But recently I was invited to sail a 47' boat in the USA with racing ambitions whose helm was so stiff when it loaded up at ~24knots that you could leave the wheel and it did not move. It was easy to balance this boat with a free helm -especially as the bay had only minor chop (about 2-3'). Nevertheless, I'd say it was unpleasant to helm. Maybe the owner liked this "feature"? But a performance-oriented boat should not have a stiff helm. Many times that I've observed, the problem is not friction but lack of structure. When a boat is sailed hard, the hull tries to twist & bend every which way, and the force on the rudder makes it worse. It only takes a very slight amount of deflection and bearings that were nice & easy suddenly grab tight. But in Ella's case, I know a free rudder could not balance the boat in such chop. Maybe it's that you don't know how? Just to remind/tell someone here why a boat will balance it is becase the force generated by the rudder depends on speed -which also depends on wind strength and anngle. Thus as the wind picks up the boat tends to pay off and accelerate until the rudder rounds her back up again. When the wind dies the boat rounds up until she loses speed and rudder authority. Why ignore the effect of varying forces on the rig? You've ignored at least half the equation here. Good thing you're not an engineer, I'd be afraid to drive or even walk across any bridge you designed..... Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the hull with no rudder? How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is asymmetrical? You've got to open your other eye, Navvie, and see the whole picture. Go and read "100 Small Boat Rigs" by Philip C. Bolger, it is probably at your local library. It will explain many forces & phenomenon that are apparently unknown to you. It's also entertaining reading (for those who are really interested in boats & sailing). Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Stiff helm?
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:02:28 +1200, The_navigatorİ wrote:
Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the hull with no rudder? When Robin Knox-Johnston won the first solo non-stop around the world race in 1969, he almost gave up in the Southern seas when his second auto-pilot broke. Playing around with sail trim he was able to figure out how to keep the boat on course. (Not sure if this is exaclty what you mean -- he had a rudder, he just wasn't steering it.) S/V Cat's Meow http://www.catsmeow.org |
Stiff helm?
You'd think he would know that wouldn't you -DSK being such an expert in
balancing boats and all? Cheers MC The Cappys Master wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:46:30 -0400, DSK wrote: How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is asymmetrical? Fresh Breezes- Doug King Hull is assym when heeled. Remember those early IOR hulls that carried max beam way aft? Screwed around like the town bike! Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
Stiff helm?
Suhali is not the type of boat we are talking about. She has a long keel
highly balanced hull. Even so, she was only balanced with a working rudder (i.e. not free). Cheers MC Gerard Weatherby wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:02:28 +1200, The_navigatorİ wrote: Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the hull with no rudder? When Robin Knox-Johnston won the first solo non-stop around the world race in 1969, he almost gave up in the Southern seas when his second auto-pilot broke. Playing around with sail trim he was able to figure out how to keep the boat on course. (Not sure if this is exaclty what you mean -- he had a rudder, he just wasn't steering it.) S/V Cat's Meow http://www.catsmeow.org |
Stiff helm?
DSK wrote:
How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is asymmetrical? The Cappys Master wrote: Hull is assym when heeled. Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it heeling? Most sailors who have spent any time at all working on improving sail trim rapidly find the relationship between heel & helm for a particular boat. Hull shape definitely influences this relationship, but one will never grasp it at all if one insists that the shape of the hull is the main factor (except in some cases of freakishly shaped hulls). This is a point that Navvie seems to have consistently missed, sorry for the minor personality flaw that makes me keep trying to teach him. Remember those early IOR hulls that carried max beam way aft? Screwed around like the town bike! Especially with a big radial-head spinnaker flying. I always hated that feeling when the Giant Hand reached down, grabbed the masthead, and began twirling the boat. Maybe I should have relaxed and enjoyed it? Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Doug show his
DSK wrote:
DSK wrote: How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is asymmetrical? The Cappys Master wrote: Hull is assym when heeled. Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it heeling? Take two boats, say a canoe stern and a modern form but same sailplan. balance them and then raise wind speed. One will round up more than the other... Obviously outside your 'extensive' experience Doug, or too difficult to understand? Don't bother with more of your pompous bluster, we who have sailed such boats can see you haven't. I think's it's typical that you try to avoid the real question at hand which is: Can a modern high speed hull shape (e.g a V60) be balanced across WIND SPEEDS AND SEAS with a FREE rudder by using hull form! Could it be that you can't find the answer with a dinghy sailing manual? By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you ever get invited to race a BIG boat. Cheers MC |
Doug show his
Show my what?
Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it heeling? The navigatorİ wrote: Take two boats, say a canoe stern and a modern form but same sailplan. balance them and then raise wind speed. One will round up more than the other... Neither will "round up" if the skipper knows what he's doing. Or do you mean that one will develop stronger weather helm than the other? That is obvious. Are you proud of figuring this out? Obviously outside your 'extensive' experience Doug, or too difficult to understand? Umm, no. Don't bother with more of your pompous bluster, we who have sailed such boats can see you haven't. I think's it's typical that you try to avoid the real question at hand which is: Can a modern high speed hull shape (e.g a V60) be balanced across WIND SPEEDS AND SEAS with a FREE rudder by using hull form! This is the first time this particular question has been asked. I guess you have to try and keep changing the subject, since the discussion has left you behind? What do you mean by "using hull form" ... AFAIK no boats change the shape of their hull underway. Are you talking about varying the angle of heel just for the effect on the helm? Could it be that you can't find the answer with a dinghy sailing manual? Actually, a good dinghy sailing manual will in fact tell a lot about balancing the helm using heel & trim. By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you ever get invited to race a BIG boat. Obsessed with size, Navvie? Not sure what you mean by "loosing the helm" but most sailors know what is meant by either a death roll or a broach. Could go either way. Letting the sheet run will help either, but it's better to use a specific technique for whatever is starting to go wrong, and to have quick enough reflexes to catch the boat and get her pointed in the right direction again. For a broach, letting the vang run is the first step, then letting the main out (if it's not already against the shrouds), then (if you've still got time) pulling the pole down hard and easing the spinnaker sheet. Only let the sheet run if all else fails. In a death roll, letting the spinnaker sheet run free is going to make it worse immediately, although it may get you out of trouble once the current oscillation is over. The better answer is to run the pole forward and down hard, and also if you crew is sharp they'll yank the sheet twinger down hard too. The real problem is that all this stuff has to happen fast, there is not time to explain. A well drilled crew can pull a boat out of an impending broach or death roll, and this can make a big gain on a downwind leg where others are wiping out. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Stiff helm?
The Cappys Master wrote: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:30:04 +1200, The_navigatorİ wrote: The Cappys Master wrote: True! So you are saying that you think you can balance a boat with a FREE rudder in a seaway? Are you sure? Yep! It won't go on forever because eventually, or even immediately, a combination of gust and wave will unbalance the boat. But yes it is quite possible. A modern wedge shaped monohull with a _____free______ rudder? Are you really sure -have you tried it? Or are you saying that she does not balance (hence the immediately?). Trouble is, it would almost never happen on a big boat if the crew were alert to what is going to happen... Of course if you are really tired it happens more often but a well skippered boat should not allow that to happen... Rubbish! Things happen in only seconds. You may have a moment and drive thru it without any problem. The next moment may catch you out, but then agian it may just be another moment. To win races you drive thru the moments hanging onto all the sail, power and speed you can. It's as much throwing down the gauntlet to your competition and pressing them into a mistake as staying clear of trouble yourself. The early IOR boats were real frighteners downhill and everybody who sailed them has plenty of tales of losing them, pirouettes, broaches and gybes. It was part of the game, the fewer you had while still driving the boat to the max, the better your chance of a win. Yes, by all means try to hang on but the winning boat did not generally broach and that was because the crew anticipated. That is the key to both helming and sail trim. Not reacting quickly is why it happens more often. You can even see it in the videos of world champions. Every time the crew did not immediately react. While some human failing is inevitable, I suggest all broaches would have been preventable. In many cases the skipper/helm inhibits the trimmer from easing pressure early enough (and in some boats the communication is appaling) because they think to win they need every bit of boat speed -forgetting that if they lose control they will lose far more time and she's be faster on her feet with only a slight heel than laid right over at the edge of control. As I see it, if all do their job properly there is no reason to broach -it just doesn't happen that fast. Have you ever seen a boat broach with the sheet freed? The build up is slow (seconds as you said)(or the adrenaline makes it seem that way). You should see/feel the gust/sea coming and the trimmer should feel the boat starting to roll too much and hear the sound of the helm pressure building (and this should be reinforced by a helm call -I use 'Pressure!' and then 'I'm losing it!') etc... I suggest the real key to winning races is not making mistakes... Cheers MC |
Doug show his
DSK wrote: Show my what? Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it heeling? The navigatorİ wrote: Take two boats, say a canoe stern and a modern form but same sailplan. balance them and then raise wind speed. One will round up more than the other... Neither will "round up" if the skipper knows what he's doing. Or do you mean that one will develop stronger weather helm than the other? That is obvious. Are you proud of figuring this out? At last! Why did it take _you_ so long to work out what we were talking about! Obviously outside your 'extensive' experience Doug, or too difficult to understand? Umm, no. Don't bother with more of your pompous bluster, we who have sailed such boats can see you haven't. I think's it's typical that you try to avoid the real question at hand which is: Can a modern high speed hull shape (e.g a V60) be balanced across WIND SPEEDS AND SEAS with a FREE rudder by using hull form! This is the first time this particular question has been asked. I guess you have to try and keep changing the subject, since the discussion has left you behind? Hahahhaa. It was my question! let me repost it: Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the hull with no rudder? Well? What do you mean by "using hull form" ... AFAIK no boats change the shape of their hull underway. Can you really be so dense? You exasperate me. Think about the interaction of the water with the hull for that is what we are discussing. Are you talking about varying the angle of heel just for the effect on the helm? There's NO HELM get it? The question is as posted above!!!!!!!!! Could it be that you can't find the answer with a dinghy sailing manual? Actually, a good dinghy sailing manual will in fact tell a lot about balancing the helm using heel & trim. Not for this Q it won't By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you ever get invited to race a BIG boat. Obsessed with size, Navvie? Not sure what you mean by "loosing the helm" but most sailors know what is meant by either a death roll or a broach. Loosing the helm is only seen on bigger wedgy boats. If you had sailed one you would know that. Could go either way. Letting the sheet run will help either, but it's better to use a specific technique for whatever is starting to go wrong, and to have quick enough reflexes to catch the boat and get her pointed in the right direction again. For a broach, letting the vang run is the first step, This is hilarious. You really have no idea beyond dinghy sailing do you? Let me give you a word of advice. If you are ever on a big boat don't do this -you will tear the boom right out of the goosneck. then letting the main out (if it's not already against the shrouds), then (if you've still got time) pulling the pole down hard and easing the spinnaker sheet. Only let the sheet run if all else fails. In a windward spinnaker broach it's the spinnaker pressure that's the problem! The spinnaker moving is the problem! In a death roll, letting the spinnaker sheet run free is going to make it worse immediately, I disagree. The windward rotation is best stopped by standing the boat up. Let me explain why: 1. The main is less important cos it's luffing and skying the boom makes thing worse by breaking full battens -even if it doesn't break the gooneck! 2. The helm is losing authority (that's a large part of why racing dinghies with plates 1/2 down can control, it better) and standing the boat up massively increases control by a) stopping rudder ventilation b) increasing effective rudder area c) decreasing the pitching moment on the hull that is stopping the bow from rising and turning downwind d) increasing keel grip. 3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air! although it may get you out of trouble once the current oscillation is over. The better answer is to run the pole forward and down hard, and also if you crew is sharp they'll yank the sheet twinger down hard too. These ideas just don't apply in offshore racing 'cos you can't adjust things that fast -the loads are huge and you can't just yank in a 'twinger' (we call it a barber hauler -the tension of the sheet can be so large you can walk up it) or pull the pole down fast. That is why the sheet trimmer is so important. One should always rig a barber hauler if high/gusty winds are anticipated (with a snap block) but this is not a control for the stopping a broach once it's starting -it's only prevention. Similarly pulling the pole down is also prevention -if you are willing to increase the liklihood of a spinnaker blow out as well as decrease trimming accuracy. The real problem is that all this stuff has to happen fast, there is not time to explain. A well drilled crew can pull a boat out of an impending broach or death roll, and this can make a big gain on a downwind leg where others are wiping out. At least we agree on that 100%. |
Doug show his
What are you thinking about?
Cheers MC The Cappys Master wrote: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:11:50 +1200, The_navigatorİ wrote: By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you ever get invited to race a BIG boat. Now that really depends on the circumstance doesn't it? Oz1...of the 3 twins. I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you. |
Stiff helm?
The Cappys Master wrote: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:41:54 +1200, The_navigatorİ wrote: A modern wedge shaped monohull with a _____free______ rudder? Are you really sure -have you tried it? Or are you saying that she does not balance (hence the immediately?). Hang on, now you're starting to place restrictions, specifying the type of boat. This is a general question and the general answer is yes, fin keelers can be made to sail with a free rudder for some time until changes in the forces upon her unbalance her. She will need a hand to get back on track but will then balance again. Then to my mind she's not balanced. Balanced is when she will sail for lonmg periods and compensate for being knocked off -like when you sail to wind with the helm locked off... Cheers MC Yes, by all means try to hang on but the winning boat did not generally broach and that was because the crew anticipated. That is the key to both helming and sail trim. Not reacting quickly is why it happens more often. You can even see it in the videos of world champions. Every time the crew did not immediately react. They sometimes don't react to a full disaster because they are expecting that they will ride it thru like last time. They will ease or trim depending but sometime just not enough and by then, its a done deal. hile some human failing is inevitable, I suggest all broaches would have been preventable. Of course, just sail slower! Doen't have to be slower. The boat may well be faster standing more upright... In many cases the skipper/helm inhibits the trimmer from easing pressure early enough (and in some boats the communication is appaling) because they think to win they need every bit of boat speed -forgetting that if they lose control they will lose far more time and she's be faster on her feet with only a slight heel than laid right over at the edge of control. As I see it, if all do their job properly there is no reason to broach -it just doesn't happen that fast. Hmmm, if every time I suspected that a situation was developing that may end in tears, I called for sheets to be eased, I'd never win a race. Have you ever seen a boat broach with the sheet freed? Yep. Explain, cos I haven't. Oh and by the time most people can get out "I'm losing it!"....its well lost and you're just in it for the ride. Sounds like reaction -not anticipating anough? Cheers MC |
Stiff helm?
The Cappys Master wrote: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:41:54 +1200, The_navigatorİ wrote: snip In many cases the skipper/helm inhibits the trimmer from easing pressure early enough (and in some boats the communication is appaling) because they think to win they need every bit of boat speed -forgetting that if they lose control they will lose far more time and she's be faster on her feet with only a slight heel than laid right over at the edge of control. As I see it, if all do their job properly there is no reason to broach -it just doesn't happen that fast. Hmmm, if every time I suspected that a situation was developing that may end in tears, I called for sheets to be eased, I'd never win a race. snip In my very limited experience, tears and terror were the norm in races. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Doug show his
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:08:22 +1000, The Cappys Master wrote this
crap: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:49:34 +1200, The_navigatorİ wrote: What are you thinking about? Cheers MC Gourmet Pizza! Is there such a thing? Do you put gormay items on regular pizza, or do you make it in bite-size pieces with toothpicks sticking out of them? (I'm boycotting all french spelling of words, such as "gormay" to protest the french's boycott of American words, such as, "E-mail.") Ave Imperator Bush! Bush Was Right! Four More Beers! |
Doug show his
In a death roll, letting the spinnaker sheet run free is going to make it worse
immediately, The navigatorİ wrote: I disagree. You can disagree all you want. The windward rotation is best stopped by standing the boat up. Let me explain why: 1. The main is less important cos it's luffing and skying the boom makes thing worse by breaking full battens -even if it doesn't break the gooneck! WTF?? The main is not luffing when the boat is beginning a broach or death roll. If it is, then you have broken all your standing rigging (except possibly the forestay) or you have found a unique method of broaching and/or death rolling while going upwind. Blowing the vang on a big boat puts the spreaders at risk, but I've seen this done on old heavyweight 50 footers and they seemed to keep battens & gooseneck in one piece, no sweat. 2. The helm is losing authority (that's a large part of why racing dinghies with plates 1/2 down can control, it better) and standing the boat up massively increases control by a) stopping rudder ventilation b) increasing effective rudder area c) decreasing the pitching moment on the hull that is stopping the bow from rising and turning downwind d) increasing keel grip. FWIW I agree that boats sail & steer better when more upright. The question is how to achieve it. "Standing the boat up massively" is not a sail handling procedure... can you explain in more detail? 3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air! Total nonsense. I guess small una rigs like the Laser and Finn are notorious for death rolling because "it's hard to do without a spinnaker." although it may get you out of trouble once the current oscillation is over. The better answer is to run the pole forward and down hard, and also if you crew is sharp they'll yank the sheet twinger down hard too. These ideas just don't apply in offshore racing 'cos you can't adjust things that fast -the loads are huge and you can't just yank in a 'twinger' (we call it a barber hauler -the tension of the sheet can be so large you can walk up it) or pull the pole down fast. That's funny, easing the pole forward doesn't take any big muscle or much time, and as it goes forward the load comes off the foreguy. OTOH letting the sheet run will at least momentarily increase the boats windward heel and will drop the speed which reduces rudder effectiveness. Then you have to get all that sheet back in, by which time the skipper will not be very happy. Earlier this summer I sailed a 2-Tonner in 20+ we yanked the pole forward and down about thirty times over the course of the day (2 15 mile bouy races). We were a pick-up crew but most knew the ropes and by the end of it we were getting pretty good at it (and also getting tired). It is not like sailing a Lightning (a 19' centerboard dinghy) but the basics are the same. So, how does all this tie in to your babbling about hull shape, or have you given that up as one of your more transparent bluffs? Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Stiff helm?
Doen't have to be slower. The boat may well be faster standing more
upright... The Cappys Master wrote: Of course it'll be slower if every time you get extra pressure you dump the kite and have to crank it on again. Especially if the chute self destructs as it flogs. Oz, I think I see the picture. Navvie is confused about whether one is sailing upwind or downwind when all this happens. He seems to think that the mainsail will be luffing, and that easing the spinnaker sheet makes everything A-OK. It would probably be kinder to let him hash this out with Bubbles, then they'll both come out thinking they've "won." DSK |
Doug show his
DSK wrote: The navigatorİ wrote: snip 3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air! Total nonsense. I guess small una rigs like the Laser and Finn are notorious for death rolling because "it's hard to do without a spinnaker." Lady Kate will death roll running square. Flying Tadpole II would deathroll running wing and wing until we worked out how to set the schooenr rig properly. Windsprints (Lugger) and Martha Janes (balanced lugger) deathroll on a square run if not set up properly. No spinnakers on any of them. Mirror dinghies without spinnaker are great death rollers. So it goes. -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Stiff helm?
The Cappys Master wrote: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:16:43 +0930, Flying Tadpole wrote: The Cappys Master wrote: On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:59:33 +0930, Flying Tadpole wrote: In my very limited experience, tears and terror were the norm in races. You should havebeen offshore in the late 60's and 70's! I should have been offshore full stop. Probably too late now. Oz, I started sailing late, it's a publicly stated fact. Hey, don't let that stop you. Provided you're fit, relatively strong and have the balance of a tightrope walker you could get a ride. And it's much safer now than it ever was so even married lunatics with wife, kids and dogs can do it. If the Murray Mouth re-opens--given the two-three yuears from now timing if it's going to--I'll be out of the current grind and able to budget the time plus time contingencies needed. At that stage, yes, i'll take her out and do at least one Encounter Bay/Kangaroo Island/Pt Lincoln/Pt Augusta and back run, but I don't think I'll set up for visiting Peter Wiley further down in the circumpolar fringe. In the meantime, it's a pleasure to sail out in rough weather on my own private sea with the navaids winking just for me (and the trio of professional fishermen), bounce and make a nice short day's passage, say about 20 miles, or even just bang about, then sleep snug and quiet with just a bit of movement deep in the reeds or in a little willow islet, and watch the tens of thousands of cormorants lifting out of the fens in the early morning... -- Flying Tadpole ------------------------- Cruise the Murray Lakes http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/mlakes.htm Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com |
Doug show his
I can understand Dougs limited ability to talk abour anything except dingies but I thought you knew more. Was I was mistaken? Cheers MC Flying Tadpole wrote: DSK wrote: The navigatorİ wrote: snip 3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air! Total nonsense. I guess small una rigs like the Laser and Finn are notorious for death rolling because "it's hard to do without a spinnaker." Lady Kate will death roll running square. Flying Tadpole II would deathroll running wing and wing until we worked out how to set the schooenr rig properly. Windsprints (Lugger) and Martha Janes (balanced lugger) deathroll on a square run if not set up properly. No spinnakers on any of them. Mirror dinghies without spinnaker are great death rollers. So it goes. |
Stiff helm?
Yeh like you sail a radial spin upwind. You are such a pompous arse.
MC DSK wrote: Doen't have to be slower. The boat may well be faster standing more upright... The Cappys Master wrote: Of course it'll be slower if every time you get extra pressure you dump the kite and have to crank it on again. Especially if the chute self destructs as it flogs. Oz, I think I see the picture. Navvie is confused about whether one is sailing upwind or downwind when all this happens. He seems to think that the mainsail will be luffing, and that easing the spinnaker sheet makes everything A-OK. It would probably be kinder to let him hash this out with Bubbles, then they'll both come out thinking they've "won." DSK |
Stiff helm?
i.e. you? hahhahahaha.
Pompous DSK wrote: DSK wrote: Most sailors |
Stiff helm?
Well let's see if you can recover from yet another revealing little
error. Say you are trimmed for 150 on a broad reach. At what angle does the main start to luff? Hint 1: Look up what luffing means Hint 2: Luffing does _not_ mean you are sailing 90 ). Cheers MC DSK wrote: Doen't have to be slower. The boat may well be faster standing more upright... The Cappys Master wrote: Of course it'll be slower if every time you get extra pressure you dump the kite and have to crank it on again. Especially if the chute self destructs as it flogs. Oz, I think I see the picture. Navvie is confused about whether one is sailing upwind or downwind when all this happens. He seems to think that the mainsail will be luffing, and that easing the spinnaker sheet makes everything A-OK. It would probably be kinder to let him hash this out with Bubbles, then they'll both come out thinking they've "won." DSK |
Doug show his
Which of my statements of fact are you disputing? And are you
classing the AS29 (30ft, 3 tons), Martha Jane (24 ft, 1 ton) as dinghies? (I accept that the Light Schooner at 24 ft and 1/2 ton laden is marginally a dinghy, and the rest are sailing dinghies). None of the cases runs a spinnaker. All can be made to death-roll as indicated without much effort (all one has to do is ignore the build-up, since they mostly give fair warning). Flying Tadpole Purveyor of antacid to the masses. ------------------------- Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace! http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com The navigatorİ wrote: I can understand Dougs limited ability to talk abour anything except dingies but I thought you knew more. Was I was mistaken? Cheers MC Flying Tadpole wrote: DSK wrote: The navigatorİ wrote: snip 3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air! Total nonsense. I guess small una rigs like the Laser and Finn are notorious for death rolling because "it's hard to do without a spinnaker." Lady Kate will death roll running square. Flying Tadpole II would deathroll running wing and wing until we worked out how to set the schooenr rig properly. Windsprints (Lugger) and Martha Janes (balanced lugger) deathroll on a square run if not set up properly. No spinnakers on any of them. Mirror dinghies without spinnaker are great death rollers. So it goes. -- |
Doug show his
The navigatorİ wrote:
I can understand Dougs limited ability to talk abour anything except dingies but I thought you knew more. Was I was mistaken? How does a clear demonstration of greater familiarity with the handling of large keelboats & their spinnakers become, in your opinion, "limited ability to talk abour anything except dingies"? Who was it that said "standing the boat up massively" is accepted sailing technique, with no further explanation or example? Is it possibly the same reason why you claim I never studied thermodynamics? Having a bad day, Navvieİ? DSK |
Doug show his
Clear demonstration of big boat experience? Oh, you mean like letting
the letting the vang go or pulling the pole down to stop a broach? You pompous ass. Well if you had sailed big keel boats you would know that they do not broach easily when the spinnaker is taken down... The fact that you don't know about the effect of heeling during the development of a broach is even more telling. Fess up, you know nothing about sailing big boats. Cheers MC DSK wrote: The navigatorİ wrote: I can understand Dougs limited ability to talk abour anything except dingies but I thought you knew more. Was I was mistaken? How does a clear demonstration of greater familiarity with the handling of large keelboats & their spinnakers become, in your opinion, "limited ability to talk abour anything except dingies"? Who was it that said "standing the boat up massively" is accepted sailing technique, with no further explanation or example? Is it possibly the same reason why you claim I never studied thermodynamics? Having a bad day, Navvieİ? DSK |
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