The navigator© wrote:

All the discussion about whether a typical modern sloop will sail a
steady course with the rudder free got me wondering about what 'free'
means to different people.

That it came with the boat at no additional cost.


But recently I was invited to sail a
47' boat in the USA with racing ambitions whose helm was so stiff when
it loaded up at ~24knots that you could leave the wheel and it did not
move. It was easy to balance this boat with a free helm -especially as
the bay had only minor chop (about 2-3'). Nevertheless, I'd say it was
unpleasant to helm.

Maybe the owner liked this "feature"? But a performance-oriented boat should
not have a stiff helm.

Many times that I've observed, the problem is not friction but lack of
structure. When a boat is sailed hard, the hull tries to twist & bend every
which way, and the force on the rudder makes it worse. It only takes a very
slight amount of deflection and bearings that were nice & easy suddenly grab
tight.


But in Ella's case, I know a free rudder could not
balance the boat in such chop.

Maybe it's that you don't know how?

Just to remind/tell someone here why a
boat will balance it is becase the force generated by the rudder depends
on speed -which also depends on wind strength and anngle. Thus as the
wind picks up the boat tends to pay off and accelerate until the rudder
rounds her back up again. When the wind dies the boat rounds up until
she loses speed and rudder authority.

Why ignore the effect of varying forces on the rig? You've ignored at least
half the equation here. Good thing you're not an engineer, I'd be afraid to
drive or even walk across any bridge you designed.....




Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round
up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the
hull with no rudder?

How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is
asymmetrical?

You've got to open your other eye, Navvie, and see the whole picture.

Go and read "100 Small Boat Rigs" by Philip C. Bolger, it is probably at
your local library. It will explain many forces & phenomenon that are
apparently unknown to you. It's also entertaining reading (for those who are
really interested in boats & sailing).

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:02:28 +1200, The_navigator© wrote:

Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round
up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the
hull with no rudder?

When Robin Knox-Johnston won the first solo non-stop around the world race in
1969, he almost gave up in the Southern seas when his second auto-pilot broke.
Playing around with sail trim he was able to figure out how to keep the boat on
course.

(Not sure if this is exaclty what you mean -- he had a rudder, he just wasn't
steering it.)

S/V Cat's Meow
http://www.catsmeow.org

You'd think he would know that wouldn't you -DSK being such an expert in
balancing boats and all?

Cheers MC

The Cappys Master wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:46:30 -0400, DSK
wrote:



How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is
asymmetrical?



Fresh Breezes- Doug King



Hull is assym when heeled.
Remember those early IOR hulls that carried max beam way aft?
Screwed around like the town bike!


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Suhali is not the type of boat we are talking about. She has a long keel
highly balanced hull. Even so, she was only balanced with a working
rudder (i.e. not free).

Cheers MC

Gerard Weatherby wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:02:28 +1200, The_navigator© wrote:


Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round
up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the
hull with no rudder?


When Robin Knox-Johnston won the first solo non-stop around the world race in
1969, he almost gave up in the Southern seas when his second auto-pilot broke.
Playing around with sail trim he was able to figure out how to keep the boat on
course.

(Not sure if this is exaclty what you mean -- he had a rudder, he just wasn't
steering it.)

S/V Cat's Meow
http://www.catsmeow.org

DSK wrote:
How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is
asymmetrical?



The Cappys Master wrote:
Hull is assym when heeled.

Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it
heeling?

Most sailors who have spent any time at all working on improving sail trim
rapidly find the relationship between heel & helm for a particular boat. Hull
shape definitely influences this relationship, but one will never grasp it at
all if one insists that the shape of the hull is the main factor (except in some
cases of freakishly shaped hulls).

This is a point that Navvie seems to have consistently missed, sorry for the
minor personality flaw that makes me keep trying to teach him.


Remember those early IOR hulls that carried max beam way aft?
Screwed around like the town bike!

Especially with a big radial-head spinnaker flying. I always hated that feeling
when the Giant Hand reached down, grabbed the masthead, and began twirling the
boat. Maybe I should have relaxed and enjoyed it?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
DSK wrote:

How is "the hull form itself" going to cause any torque? Unless the hull is
asymmetrical?


The Cappys Master wrote:
Hull is assym when heeled.


Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it
heeling?

Take two boats, say a canoe stern and a modern form but same sailplan.
balance them and then raise wind speed. One will round up more than the
other... Obviously outside your 'extensive' experience Doug, or too
difficult to understand?

Don't bother with more of your pompous bluster, we who have sailed such
boats can see you haven't. I think's it's typical that you try to avoid
the real question at hand which is: Can a modern high speed hull shape
(e.g a V60) be balanced across WIND SPEEDS AND SEAS with a FREE rudder
by using hull form! Could it be that you can't find the answer with a
dinghy sailing manual?

By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease
the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you
ever get invited to race a BIG boat.


Cheers MC

Show my what?


Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it
heeling?

The navigator© wrote:
Take two boats, say a canoe stern and a modern form but same sailplan.
balance them and then raise wind speed. One will round up more than the
other...

Neither will "round up" if the skipper knows what he's doing. Or do you mean that
one will develop stronger weather helm than the other? That is obvious. Are you
proud of figuring this out?



Obviously outside your 'extensive' experience Doug, or too
difficult to understand?

Umm, no.



Don't bother with more of your pompous bluster, we who have sailed such
boats can see you haven't. I think's it's typical that you try to avoid
the real question at hand which is: Can a modern high speed hull shape
(e.g a V60) be balanced across WIND SPEEDS AND SEAS with a FREE rudder
by using hull form!

This is the first time this particular question has been asked. I guess you have
to try and keep changing the subject, since the discussion has left you behind?
What do you mean by "using hull form" ... AFAIK no boats change the shape of their
hull underway. Are you talking about varying the angle of heel just for the effect
on the helm?




Could it be that you can't find the answer with a
dinghy sailing manual?

Actually, a good dinghy sailing manual will in fact tell a lot about balancing the
helm using heel & trim.



By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease
the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you
ever get invited to race a BIG boat.

Obsessed with size, Navvie?

Not sure what you mean by "loosing the helm" but most sailors know what is meant
by either a death roll or a broach. Could go either way. Letting the sheet run
will help either, but it's better to use a specific technique for whatever is
starting to go wrong, and to have quick enough reflexes to catch the boat and get
her pointed in the right direction again. For a broach, letting the vang run is
the first step, then letting the main out (if it's not already against the
shrouds), then (if you've still got time) pulling the pole down hard and easing
the spinnaker sheet. Only let the sheet run if all else fails.

In a death roll, letting the spinnaker sheet run free is going to make it worse
immediately, although it may get you out of trouble once the current oscillation
is over. The better answer is to run the pole forward and down hard, and also if
you crew is sharp they'll yank the sheet twinger down hard too.

The real problem is that all this stuff has to happen fast, there is not time to
explain. A well drilled crew can pull a boat out of an impending broach or death
roll, and this can make a big gain on a downwind leg where others are wiping out.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

The Cappys Master wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:30:04 +1200, The_navigator©
wrote:


The Cappys Master wrote:


True!


So you are saying that you think you can balance a boat with a FREE
rudder in a seaway? Are you sure?


Yep!
It won't go on forever because eventually, or even immediately, a
combination of gust and wave will unbalance the boat.
But yes it is quite possible.

A modern wedge shaped monohull with a _____free______ rudder? Are you
really sure -have you tried it? Or are you saying that she does not
balance (hence the immediately?).



Trouble is, it would almost never happen on a big boat if the crew were
alert to what is going to happen... Of course if you are really tired
it happens more often but a well skippered boat should not allow that to
happen...


Rubbish!
Things happen in only seconds. You may have a moment and drive thru it
without any problem. The next moment may catch you out, but then agian
it may just be another moment. To win races you drive thru the moments
hanging onto all the sail, power and speed you can. It's as much
throwing down the gauntlet to your competition and pressing them into
a mistake as staying clear of trouble yourself.
The early IOR boats were real frighteners downhill and everybody who
sailed them has plenty of tales of losing them, pirouettes, broaches
and gybes. It was part of the game, the fewer you had while still
driving the boat to the max, the better your chance of a win.

Yes, by all means try to hang on but the winning boat did not generally
broach and that was because the crew anticipated. That is the key to
both helming and sail trim. Not reacting quickly is why it happens more
often. You can even see it in the videos of world champions. Every time
the crew did not immediately react. While some human failing is
inevitable, I suggest all broaches would have been preventable. In many
cases the skipper/helm inhibits the trimmer from easing pressure early
enough (and in some boats the communication is appaling) because they
think to win they need every bit of boat speed -forgetting that if they
lose control they will lose far more time and she's be faster on her
feet with only a slight heel than laid right over at the edge of
control. As I see it, if all do their job properly there is no reason to
broach -it just doesn't happen that fast.

Have you ever seen a boat broach with the sheet freed?

The build up is slow (seconds as you said)(or the adrenaline makes it
seem that way). You should see/feel the gust/sea coming and the trimmer
should feel the boat starting to roll too much and hear the sound of the
helm pressure building (and this should be reinforced by a helm call -I
use 'Pressure!' and then 'I'm losing it!') etc... I suggest the real key
to winning races is not making mistakes...

Cheers MC

DSK wrote:
Show my what?



Yes indeed. So, is it the "hull form" that is causing the torque or is it
heeling?

The navigator© wrote:
Take two boats, say a canoe stern and a modern form but same sailplan.
balance them and then raise wind speed. One will round up more than the
other...


Neither will "round up" if the skipper knows what he's doing. Or do you mean that
one will develop stronger weather helm than the other? That is obvious. Are you
proud of figuring this out?


At last! Why did it take _you_ so long to work out what we were talking
about!



Obviously outside your 'extensive' experience Doug, or too
difficult to understand?


Umm, no.



Don't bother with more of your pompous bluster, we who have sailed such
boats can see you haven't. I think's it's typical that you try to avoid
the real question at hand which is: Can a modern high speed hull shape
(e.g a V60) be balanced across WIND SPEEDS AND SEAS with a FREE rudder
by using hull form!


This is the first time this particular question has been asked. I guess you have
to try and keep changing the subject, since the discussion has left you behind?

Hahahhaa. It was my question! let me repost it:

Now the question is, if the hull form itself causes a very strong round
up and the wind was very strong could one achieve balance her by the
hull with no rudder?

Well?

What do you mean by "using hull form" ... AFAIK no boats change the shape of their
hull underway.

Can you really be so dense? You exasperate me. Think about the
interaction of the water with the hull for that is what we are discussing.

Are you talking about varying the angle of heel just for the effect
on the helm?


There's NO HELM get it? The question is as posted above!!!!!!!!!


Could it be that you can't find the answer with a
dinghy sailing manual?


Actually, a good dinghy sailing manual will in fact tell a lot about balancing the
helm using heel & trim.



Not for this Q it won't


By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease
the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you
ever get invited to race a BIG boat.

Obsessed with size, Navvie?

Not sure what you mean by "loosing the helm" but most sailors know what is meant
by either a death roll or a broach.

Loosing the helm is only seen on bigger wedgy boats. If you had sailed
one you would know that.


Could go either way. Letting the sheet run
will help either, but it's better to use a specific technique for whatever is
starting to go wrong, and to have quick enough reflexes to catch the boat and get
her pointed in the right direction again. For a broach, letting the vang run is
the first step,


This is hilarious. You really have no idea beyond dinghy sailing do you?
Let me give you a word of advice. If you are ever on a big boat don't do
this -you will tear the boom right out of the goosneck.


then letting the main out (if it's not already against the
shrouds), then (if you've still got time) pulling the pole down hard and easing
the spinnaker sheet. Only let the sheet run if all else fails.

In a windward spinnaker broach it's the spinnaker pressure that's the
problem! The spinnaker moving is the problem!


In a death roll, letting the spinnaker sheet run free is going to make it worse
immediately,


I disagree. The windward rotation is best stopped by standing the boat
up. Let me explain why:

1. The main is less important cos it's luffing and skying the boom makes
thing worse by breaking full battens -even if it doesn't break the gooneck!

2. The helm is losing authority (that's a large part of why racing
dinghies with plates 1/2 down can control, it better) and standing the
boat up massively increases control by

a) stopping rudder ventilation
b) increasing effective rudder area
c) decreasing the pitching moment on the hull that is stopping the bow
from rising and turning downwind
d) increasing keel grip.


3. It's hard to do a death roll without a spinnaker and the reason is
the spin pulls the boat over as long as it's full of air!

although it may get you out of trouble once the current oscillation
is over. The better answer is to run the pole forward and down hard, and also if
you crew is sharp they'll yank the sheet twinger down hard too.


These ideas just don't apply in offshore racing 'cos you can't adjust
things that fast -the loads are huge and you can't just yank in a
'twinger' (we call it a barber hauler -the tension of the sheet can be
so large you can walk up it) or pull the pole down fast. That is why the
sheet trimmer is so important. One should always rig a barber hauler if
high/gusty winds are anticipated (with a snap block) but this is not a
control for the stopping a broach once it's starting -it's only
prevention. Similarly pulling the pole down is also prevention -if you
are willing to increase the liklihood of a spinnaker blow out as well as
decrease trimming accuracy.


The real problem is that all this stuff has to happen fast, there is not time to
explain. A well drilled crew can pull a boat out of an impending broach or death
roll, and this can make a big gain on a downwind leg where others are wiping out.

At least we agree on that 100%.

What are you thinking about?

Cheers MC



The Cappys Master wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:11:50 +1200, The_navigator©
wrote:


By the way, if you start to loose the helm with a spinnaker up you ease
the sheet through the winch very quickly. Try to remember that if you
ever get invited to race a BIG boat.


Now that really depends on the circumstance doesn't it?


Oz1...of the 3 twins.
I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.