Buh-Bye!
 

What a pathetic sailing trip. It's all schedule and land-based.
Why not just drive an automobile? You aren't sailing anyway;
your are going to end up motoring just to keep on schedule.

What a loser!


wrote in message ...
Well, unlike Captain Bobadil, (Please do a google on "Captain Bobadil" - Ben
Johnson clearly knew Bobsprit in a previous incarnation) when I say I'm going
sailing, I go sailing. We'll have a nice dinner at Lenny's Joint tonight, sleep
aboard, and then get off to an early start tomorrow for a 6 day cruise around
western LIS to visit some friends and family, attend a school reunion being held
on a beach, and even stop in Port Jeff for a night to make sure we overpay for
SOMETHING on this trip. We might even stop one day at the Norwalk Visitors Dock
so we can have lunch at El Alcapulco. It's 25 cents a foot at the visitor's dock
during the day. Free for an hour and a half if you spend at least $10 on shore
and show the receipt. Only a fool or a derelict with no money would stay there
overnight. It's in a quiet spot, but only a short jog across a draw bridge from
some very bad places o be after dark. Why do that when you could stay in swanky
Compo Yacht Basin a few miles away for a paltry $1.50 a foot? From there, you
can walk to the Westport Longshore Country Club and have a 4 star meal, with
maybe Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward seated next to you. I think Martha Stewart
has been permanently banned. That's a "good thing". - LOL!

Also, unlike Bob, inclement weather won't hamper our plans in any way. There are
no reported Hurricanes blowing through, so we are all set to have some fun. You
will remember that Bobadil's last TWO attempts to sail the arduous 25 miles to
Norwalk were thwarted by deadly drizzle and seas over 1 foot! If I was only a
scant 25 miles from Norwalk, I'd get down that way a lot more often. There is a
lot to do in that whole stretch from Black Rock to Stamford.

Nonetheless, my elderly wife and I are taking our tiny, and extremely tippy,
canoe-like C&C 27-5 out for the next 6 days in whatever the "Big G" has to
offer, WITHOUT ANY HELP!

Pray for us.

BB

Buh-Bye!
 

My sailing trips start and end on the water. I have not been to
shore for over ten days, as I write this. I am eminently qualified
to decide who is a sailor and who isn't. It is clear that you are
no more a sailor than Booby!


wrote in message ...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:08:17 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote:

What a pathetic sailing trip. It's all schedule and land-based.
Why not just drive an automobile? You aren't sailing anyway;
your are going to end up motoring just to keep on schedule.


Why would we need to motor at all? No leg is more than about 25 nm. Most sailing
does start and end on land. I guess you were unaware of that, being a
non-sailor, and all...

BB

Buh-Bye!
 

I thought these pics were taken a few years ago? Did you stay anchored out in the dink
while the yard fixed your boat and took the pictures?
http://captneal.homestead.com/haulout.html


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
My sailing trips start and end on the water. I have not been to
shore for over ten days, as I write this. I am eminently qualified
to decide who is a sailor and who isn't. It is clear that you are
no more a sailor than Booby!


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:08:17 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote:

What a pathetic sailing trip. It's all schedule and land-based.
Why not just drive an automobile? You aren't sailing anyway;
your are going to end up motoring just to keep on schedule.


Why would we need to motor at all? No leg is more than about 25 nm. Most sailing
does start and end on land. I guess you were unaware of that, being a
non-sailor, and all...

BB

Buh-Bye!
 

Nonetheless, my elderly wife and I are taking our tiny, and extremely tippy,
canoe-like C&C 27-5 out for the next 6 days in whatever the "Big G" has to
offer, WITHOUT ANY HELP!

An excellent summary of the C&C 27. I notice you're leaving AFTER the bad
weather cleared out last night!!
Have fun and bring back pics!

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Putting the boat on the hard for the purpose of painting the
bottom can hardly be called a sailing trip. I said I had not
been ashore for ten days not ten years.Good grief!


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
I thought these pics were taken a few years ago? Did you stay anchored out in the dink
while the yard fixed your boat and took the pictures?
http://captneal.homestead.com/haulout.html


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
My sailing trips start and end on the water. I have not been to
shore for over ten days, as I write this. I am eminently qualified
to decide who is a sailor and who isn't. It is clear that you are
no more a sailor than Booby!


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:08:17 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote:

What a pathetic sailing trip. It's all schedule and land-based.
Why not just drive an automobile? You aren't sailing anyway;
your are going to end up motoring just to keep on schedule.


Why would we need to motor at all? No leg is more than about 25 nm. Most sailing
does start and end on land. I guess you were unaware of that, being a
non-sailor, and all...

BB

Buh-Bye!
 

If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Neal is thinking of his boat - for him a 25 mile trip is an all-day passage. In the light
LIS wind, it could be an overnight.


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:08:17 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote:

What a pathetic sailing trip. It's all schedule and land-based.
Why not just drive an automobile? You aren't sailing anyway;
your are going to end up motoring just to keep on schedule.


Why would we need to motor at all? No leg is more than about 25 nm. Most sailing
does start and end on land. I guess you were unaware of that, being a
non-sailor, and all...

BB

Buh-Bye!
 

Good evening, Dearest!


"katysails" wrote in message ...

My sailing trips start and end on the water.

Toilet bowls don't count as water....
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Buh-Bye!
 

Good evening, Dearest!

Hey...I'm 5'9"....go take a cold shower
--
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

Buh-Bye!
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.


That is such a pathetic challenge - its hard to see how you could keep up with me for 5
minutes.

For starters, my SA/disp is over 20, while yours is about 14.25. This predicts the speed,
as a percentage of hullspeed, for a given wind. Meanwhile, my hull speed (not that I'm
constrained by it, as you are) is about 8 knots. Your hull speed is about 6.3 knots.

I don't have the Polar diagram for either boat, but lets try to do a VPP-like prediction,
based on published data and tables. In a 14 knot breeze, a sail generates 0.02 HP per
square foot. For you, that's 6 HP, or 1040 pounds/hp; for me that 10.8, which is 815
pounds/hp. This means (using a table) that you'll move at about 1.05 times the sqrt of
your waterline, or 1.05x4.7 or 4.9 knots. My boat, on the other hand, will be at 1.14 x
sqrt(WL), or 6.7 knots, or 36 percent faster. I'm not even considering that my boat goes
faster than the table predicts, because of the very narrow effective beam of the
individual hulls.

Your boat will get to its 6.3 knot hull speed at some point around 20 knots breeze - at
which time I'll be flying away at 10+ knots. At low speed, in a 10 knot wind you'll be at
4.5 knots; I'll be at 6.2 knots. BTW, these number are fairly good predictors - I'm a tad
slower than the 10 knot wind prediction, a tad faster than the 14 knot. This makes sense,
since at low speed the wetted surface affects me more than a normal boat; at higher speed
I have less wave making resistance.

You can talk about your 130 jib, but I have one too. Or your chute, but I have a new
asymm. How about your main, is it a 3 year old modern full batten main or a blown out old
bag?

Do you have any chance? In light air anything can happen. And you certainly have local
knowledge. Short tacking up a narrow channel would not be pleasant for me. Upwind, the
margin might be a bit closer, though your shoal draft keel doesn't help you much. But on
a relatively open course, in any wind over, say 8 knots, I'll be going 35% faster than
you, or more. The last time I went by your mooring I was doing 8-9 knots, and averaged
that for the entire day.

Frankly, unless there's a dramatic change in my life, I don't think I'll get my boat down
there again for a few more years (though I may be driving by at Christmas). Why don't you
bring your fine bluewater craft up here next Summer?

-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the
deli."

Buh-Bye!
 

The water is too polluted up there for my liking and the winds
too unreliable. Then, there's the people of whom Bobsprit is
a good example. I would have to be crazy to go up there by
choice.

The reason I would probably beat you in a race from Key
Largo to Marathon is local knowledge (shortcuts, etc.) and
unless there was enough wind for you to reach hull speed
I would beat your boat because mine goes faster in lighter
winds. Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls. Also, I can hang
proportionately more sail area than you can.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.


That is such a pathetic challenge - its hard to see how you could keep up with me for 5
minutes.

For starters, my SA/disp is over 20, while yours is about 14.25. This predicts the speed,
as a percentage of hullspeed, for a given wind. Meanwhile, my hull speed (not that I'm
constrained by it, as you are) is about 8 knots. Your hull speed is about 6.3 knots.

I don't have the Polar diagram for either boat, but lets try to do a VPP-like prediction,
based on published data and tables. In a 14 knot breeze, a sail generates 0.02 HP per
square foot. For you, that's 6 HP, or 1040 pounds/hp; for me that 10.8, which is 815
pounds/hp. This means (using a table) that you'll move at about 1.05 times the sqrt of
your waterline, or 1.05x4.7 or 4.9 knots. My boat, on the other hand, will be at 1.14 x
sqrt(WL), or 6.7 knots, or 36 percent faster. I'm not even considering that my boat goes
faster than the table predicts, because of the very narrow effective beam of the
individual hulls.

Your boat will get to its 6.3 knot hull speed at some point around 20 knots breeze - at
which time I'll be flying away at 10+ knots. At low speed, in a 10 knot wind you'll be at
4.5 knots; I'll be at 6.2 knots. BTW, these number are fairly good predictors - I'm a tad
slower than the 10 knot wind prediction, a tad faster than the 14 knot. This makes sense,
since at low speed the wetted surface affects me more than a normal boat; at higher speed
I have less wave making resistance.

You can talk about your 130 jib, but I have one too. Or your chute, but I have a new
asymm. How about your main, is it a 3 year old modern full batten main or a blown out old
bag?

Do you have any chance? In light air anything can happen. And you certainly have local
knowledge. Short tacking up a narrow channel would not be pleasant for me. Upwind, the
margin might be a bit closer, though your shoal draft keel doesn't help you much. But on
a relatively open course, in any wind over, say 8 knots, I'll be going 35% faster than
you, or more. The last time I went by your mooring I was doing 8-9 knots, and averaged
that for the entire day.

Frankly, unless there's a dramatic change in my life, I don't think I'll get my boat down
there again for a few more years (though I may be driving by at Christmas). Why don't you
bring your fine bluewater craft up here next Summer?

-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at the
deli."

Buh-Bye!
 

Neal wrote...

The reason I would probably beat you in a race from Key Largo to Marathon is
my big outboard

Buh-Bye!
 

Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls.


Of course Neal knows that his boat is slow, but this is still entertaining.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

My boat is faster in light winds than your C&C which stands
for Crud and Crudier.


"CANDChelp" wrote in message ...
Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls.


Of course Neal knows that his boat is slow, but this is still entertaining.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Your local knowledge would certainly help in such confined waters, but remember that I
draw less than you do, even with you shoal draft keel. I don't have to reach my hull
speed; I sail above your hull speed in 12 knots. I doubt your boat goes faster than mine
in light air - even if you did get way on the first powerboat wake would set you rolling
for 15 minutes. My props are folding, though I do have drag from saildrives and a bit of
extra surface.

I don't think you can add much sail. We both have 130s, and your 150 only adds about 30
square feet. I can carry my asymm a lot closer than you can carry your chute.

The simple truth is that although my PDQ is not a speedster by multihull standards, it is
substantially fast than most monohulls under 40 feet.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The water is too polluted up there for my liking and the winds
too unreliable. Then, there's the people of whom Bobsprit is
a good example. I would have to be crazy to go up there by
choice.

The reason I would probably beat you in a race from Key
Largo to Marathon is local knowledge (shortcuts, etc.) and
unless there was enough wind for you to reach hull speed
I would beat your boat because mine goes faster in lighter
winds. Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls. Also, I can hang
proportionately more sail area than you can.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.


That is such a pathetic challenge - its hard to see how you could keep up with me for
5
minutes.

For starters, my SA/disp is over 20, while yours is about 14.25. This predicts the
speed,
as a percentage of hullspeed, for a given wind. Meanwhile, my hull speed (not that
I'm
constrained by it, as you are) is about 8 knots. Your hull speed is about 6.3 knots.

I don't have the Polar diagram for either boat, but lets try to do a VPP-like
prediction,
based on published data and tables. In a 14 knot breeze, a sail generates 0.02 HP per
square foot. For you, that's 6 HP, or 1040 pounds/hp; for me that 10.8, which is 815
pounds/hp. This means (using a table) that you'll move at about 1.05 times the sqrt
of
your waterline, or 1.05x4.7 or 4.9 knots. My boat, on the other hand, will be at 1.14
x
sqrt(WL), or 6.7 knots, or 36 percent faster. I'm not even considering that my boat
goes
faster than the table predicts, because of the very narrow effective beam of the
individual hulls.

Your boat will get to its 6.3 knot hull speed at some point around 20 knots breeze -
at
which time I'll be flying away at 10+ knots. At low speed, in a 10 knot wind you'll
be at
4.5 knots; I'll be at 6.2 knots. BTW, these number are fairly good predictors - I'm a
tad
slower than the 10 knot wind prediction, a tad faster than the 14 knot. This makes
sense,
since at low speed the wetted surface affects me more than a normal boat; at higher
speed
I have less wave making resistance.

You can talk about your 130 jib, but I have one too. Or your chute, but I have a new
asymm. How about your main, is it a 3 year old modern full batten main or a blown out
old
bag?

Do you have any chance? In light air anything can happen. And you certainly have
local
knowledge. Short tacking up a narrow channel would not be pleasant for me. Upwind,
the
margin might be a bit closer, though your shoal draft keel doesn't help you much. But
on
a relatively open course, in any wind over, say 8 knots, I'll be going 35% faster than
you, or more. The last time I went by your mooring I was doing 8-9 knots, and averaged
that for the entire day.

Frankly, unless there's a dramatic change in my life, I don't think I'll get my boat
down
there again for a few more years (though I may be driving by at Christmas). Why don't
you
bring your fine bluewater craft up here next Summer?

-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup at
the
deli."

Buh-Bye!
 

I draw 2'11" "at the dock," maybe an extra 1/2 inch with my normal summer gear, and about
3'1" loaded for a long trip. My draft increases inch per 800 pounds. Contrary to what
you may believe, we are not over loaded - no genset, no A/C, no watermaker. Most of the
gear was chose for weight and energy efficiency. Proportionally, your boat is probably
more loaded than - you once bragged that you we overload enough to increase the waterline
substantially. For example, while we both have positive floatation, mine is structural
foam, yours is added weight.

Even with your 170, your SA/disp is less then mine. My 130 bumps mine from over 20 to
about 22. With the asymm its probably 25 or more. I don't need to pole out, with an 18
foot beam I just put a snatch block on the rail where ever I need one.

I'd be pretty confident I'd blow you away in anything over 8 knots, but I admit, I don't
often bother sailing in lighter wind. For most of my trips, bouncy around in the open
ocean in a drifter isn't that much fun. Last week we went to P'town, over 50 miles. We
were able to sail over in a 12-14 knot breeze, but coming back it was only about 6-8 -
with the engines running the apparent wind rarely went over 2 or 3 knots. I'm sure you
understand this - you talk about motorsailing all over the Bahamas.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Your boat probably draws about the same as mine. I don't
see how a heavy multi like you sail can draw much less than
three and a half feet.

I have a 170% jenny that sweeps the deck and the clew
of which is even with the companionway when sheeted in
tight. I can go much faster than you in light winds and that
is a fact of life. Even off the wind I can go faster because
I can pole the 170 genny out on one side and the cruising
chute on the other. My SA/Disp ratio can practically double
yours on a downwind run.

I would certainly be waving BuhpBye to you in anything
but winds over about 10-12 knots. Your higher hull
speed would only be an advantage in winds above that.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Your local knowledge would certainly help in such confined waters, but remember that I
draw less than you do, even with you shoal draft keel. I don't have to reach my hull
speed; I sail above your hull speed in 12 knots. I doubt your boat goes faster than
mine
in light air - even if you did get way on the first powerboat wake would set you
rolling
for 15 minutes. My props are folding, though I do have drag from saildrives and a bit
of
extra surface.

I don't think you can add much sail. We both have 130s, and your 150 only adds about
30
square feet. I can carry my asymm a lot closer than you can carry your chute.

The simple truth is that although my PDQ is not a speedster by multihull standards, it
is
substantially fast than most monohulls under 40 feet.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The water is too polluted up there for my liking and the winds
too unreliable. Then, there's the people of whom Bobsprit is
a good example. I would have to be crazy to go up there by
choice.

The reason I would probably beat you in a race from Key
Largo to Marathon is local knowledge (shortcuts, etc.) and
unless there was enough wind for you to reach hull speed
I would beat your boat because mine goes faster in lighter
winds. Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls. Also, I can hang
proportionately more sail area than you can.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.


That is such a pathetic challenge - its hard to see how you could keep up with me
for
5
minutes.

For starters, my SA/disp is over 20, while yours is about 14.25. This predicts
the
speed,
as a percentage of hullspeed, for a given wind. Meanwhile, my hull speed (not
that
I'm
constrained by it, as you are) is about 8 knots. Your hull speed is about 6.3
knots.

I don't have the Polar diagram for either boat, but lets try to do a VPP-like
prediction,
based on published data and tables. In a 14 knot breeze, a sail generates 0.02 HP
per
square foot. For you, that's 6 HP, or 1040 pounds/hp; for me that 10.8, which is
815
pounds/hp. This means (using a table) that you'll move at about 1.05 times the
sqrt
of
your waterline, or 1.05x4.7 or 4.9 knots. My boat, on the other hand, will be at
1.14
x
sqrt(WL), or 6.7 knots, or 36 percent faster. I'm not even considering that my
boat
goes
faster than the table predicts, because of the very narrow effective beam of the
individual hulls.

Your boat will get to its 6.3 knot hull speed at some point around 20 knots
breeze -
at
which time I'll be flying away at 10+ knots. At low speed, in a 10 knot wind
you'll
be at
4.5 knots; I'll be at 6.2 knots. BTW, these number are fairly good predictors -
I'm a
tad
slower than the 10 knot wind prediction, a tad faster than the 14 knot. This
makes
sense,
since at low speed the wetted surface affects me more than a normal boat; at
higher
speed
I have less wave making resistance.

You can talk about your 130 jib, but I have one too. Or your chute, but I have a
new
asymm. How about your main, is it a 3 year old modern full batten main or a blown
out
old
bag?

Do you have any chance? In light air anything can happen. And you certainly have
local
knowledge. Short tacking up a narrow channel would not be pleasant for me.
Upwind,
the
margin might be a bit closer, though your shoal draft keel doesn't help you much.
But
on
a relatively open course, in any wind over, say 8 knots, I'll be going 35% faster
than
you, or more. The last time I went by your mooring I was doing 8-9 knots, and
averaged
that for the entire day.

Frankly, unless there's a dramatic change in my life, I don't think I'll get my
boat
down
there again for a few more years (though I may be driving by at Christmas). Why
don't
you
bring your fine bluewater craft up here next Summer?

-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup
at
the
deli."

Buh-Bye!
 

Sometimes one must use the engine, especially when there is a current
involved or one will arrive at another destination than planned. But,
in a race where no engine use is allowed, especially here in the Keys,
you would lose every time unless the winds were stiff. Local knowledge
also means familiarity with currents which can be significant around here.

Between my superior sailing skills and my more easily driven boat you
would not have much of a chance at all of beating me in a race between
Key Largo and Marathon unless it was wintertime in a norther.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
I draw 2'11" "at the dock," maybe an extra 1/2 inch with my normal summer gear, and about
3'1" loaded for a long trip. My draft increases inch per 800 pounds. Contrary to what
you may believe, we are not over loaded - no genset, no A/C, no watermaker. Most of the
gear was chose for weight and energy efficiency. Proportionally, your boat is probably
more loaded than - you once bragged that you we overload enough to increase the waterline
substantially. For example, while we both have positive floatation, mine is structural
foam, yours is added weight.

Even with your 170, your SA/disp is less then mine. My 130 bumps mine from over 20 to
about 22. With the asymm its probably 25 or more. I don't need to pole out, with an 18
foot beam I just put a snatch block on the rail where ever I need one.

I'd be pretty confident I'd blow you away in anything over 8 knots, but I admit, I don't
often bother sailing in lighter wind. For most of my trips, bouncy around in the open
ocean in a drifter isn't that much fun. Last week we went to P'town, over 50 miles. We
were able to sail over in a 12-14 knot breeze, but coming back it was only about 6-8 -
with the engines running the apparent wind rarely went over 2 or 3 knots. I'm sure you
understand this - you talk about motorsailing all over the Bahamas.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Your boat probably draws about the same as mine. I don't
see how a heavy multi like you sail can draw much less than
three and a half feet.

I have a 170% jenny that sweeps the deck and the clew
of which is even with the companionway when sheeted in
tight. I can go much faster than you in light winds and that
is a fact of life. Even off the wind I can go faster because
I can pole the 170 genny out on one side and the cruising
chute on the other. My SA/Disp ratio can practically double
yours on a downwind run.

I would certainly be waving BuhpBye to you in anything
but winds over about 10-12 knots. Your higher hull
speed would only be an advantage in winds above that.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Your local knowledge would certainly help in such confined waters, but remember that I
draw less than you do, even with you shoal draft keel. I don't have to reach my hull
speed; I sail above your hull speed in 12 knots. I doubt your boat goes faster than
mine
in light air - even if you did get way on the first powerboat wake would set you
rolling
for 15 minutes. My props are folding, though I do have drag from saildrives and a bit
of
extra surface.

I don't think you can add much sail. We both have 130s, and your 150 only adds about
30
square feet. I can carry my asymm a lot closer than you can carry your chute.

The simple truth is that although my PDQ is not a speedster by multihull standards, it
is
substantially fast than most monohulls under 40 feet.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The water is too polluted up there for my liking and the winds
too unreliable. Then, there's the people of whom Bobsprit is
a good example. I would have to be crazy to go up there by
choice.

The reason I would probably beat you in a race from Key
Largo to Marathon is local knowledge (shortcuts, etc.) and
unless there was enough wind for you to reach hull speed
I would beat your boat because mine goes faster in lighter
winds. Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls. Also, I can hang
proportionately more sail area than you can.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.


That is such a pathetic challenge - its hard to see how you could keep up with me
for
5
minutes.

For starters, my SA/disp is over 20, while yours is about 14.25. This predicts
the
speed,
as a percentage of hullspeed, for a given wind. Meanwhile, my hull speed (not
that
I'm
constrained by it, as you are) is about 8 knots. Your hull speed is about 6.3
knots.

I don't have the Polar diagram for either boat, but lets try to do a VPP-like
prediction,
based on published data and tables. In a 14 knot breeze, a sail generates 0.02 HP
per
square foot. For you, that's 6 HP, or 1040 pounds/hp; for me that 10.8, which is
815
pounds/hp. This means (using a table) that you'll move at about 1.05 times the
sqrt
of
your waterline, or 1.05x4.7 or 4.9 knots. My boat, on the other hand, will be at
1.14
x
sqrt(WL), or 6.7 knots, or 36 percent faster. I'm not even considering that my
boat
goes
faster than the table predicts, because of the very narrow effective beam of the
individual hulls.

Your boat will get to its 6.3 knot hull speed at some point around 20 knots
breeze -
at
which time I'll be flying away at 10+ knots. At low speed, in a 10 knot wind
you'll
be at
4.5 knots; I'll be at 6.2 knots. BTW, these number are fairly good predictors -
I'm a
tad
slower than the 10 knot wind prediction, a tad faster than the 14 knot. This
makes
sense,
since at low speed the wetted surface affects me more than a normal boat; at
higher
speed
I have less wave making resistance.

You can talk about your 130 jib, but I have one too. Or your chute, but I have a
new
asymm. How about your main, is it a 3 year old modern full batten main or a blown
out
old
bag?

Do you have any chance? In light air anything can happen. And you certainly have
local
knowledge. Short tacking up a narrow channel would not be pleasant for me.
Upwind,
the
margin might be a bit closer, though your shoal draft keel doesn't help you much.
But
on
a relatively open course, in any wind over, say 8 knots, I'll be going 35% faster
than
you, or more. The last time I went by your mooring I was doing 8-9 knots, and
averaged
that for the entire day.

Frankly, unless there's a dramatic change in my life, I don't think I'll get my
boat
down
there again for a few more years (though I may be driving by at Christmas). Why
don't
you
bring your fine bluewater craft up here next Summer?

-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back soup
at
the
deli."

Buh-Bye!
 

Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you anywhere. Then
I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call anything over 8 knots
"a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here in the Fall.

Just to make sure the race would not be a beat, I checked the prevailing winds for the
Keys. Since I wouldn't be silly enough to stay there in the Summer, I'd be coming during
the winter Northers. Perhaps when we're heading home, the wind would have backed around
to SE. How about two races: Key Largo to Marathon when we first coming down, then
Marathon to Key Largo in April when its time to head back?


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Sometimes one must use the engine, especially when there is a current
involved or one will arrive at another destination than planned. But,
in a race where no engine use is allowed, especially here in the Keys,
you would lose every time unless the winds were stiff. Local knowledge
also means familiarity with currents which can be significant around here.

Between my superior sailing skills and my more easily driven boat you
would not have much of a chance at all of beating me in a race between
Key Largo and Marathon unless it was wintertime in a norther.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
I draw 2'11" "at the dock," maybe an extra 1/2 inch with my normal summer gear, and
about
3'1" loaded for a long trip. My draft increases inch per 800 pounds. Contrary to
what
you may believe, we are not over loaded - no genset, no A/C, no watermaker. Most of
the
gear was chose for weight and energy efficiency. Proportionally, your boat is
probably
more loaded than - you once bragged that you we overload enough to increase the
waterline
substantially. For example, while we both have positive floatation, mine is
structural
foam, yours is added weight.

Even with your 170, your SA/disp is less then mine. My 130 bumps mine from over 20 to
about 22. With the asymm its probably 25 or more. I don't need to pole out, with an
18
foot beam I just put a snatch block on the rail where ever I need one.

I'd be pretty confident I'd blow you away in anything over 8 knots, but I admit, I
don't
often bother sailing in lighter wind. For most of my trips, bouncy around in the open
ocean in a drifter isn't that much fun. Last week we went to P'town, over 50 miles.
We
were able to sail over in a 12-14 knot breeze, but coming back it was only about 6-8 -
with the engines running the apparent wind rarely went over 2 or 3 knots. I'm sure
you
understand this - you talk about motorsailing all over the Bahamas.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Your boat probably draws about the same as mine. I don't
see how a heavy multi like you sail can draw much less than
three and a half feet.

I have a 170% jenny that sweeps the deck and the clew
of which is even with the companionway when sheeted in
tight. I can go much faster than you in light winds and that
is a fact of life. Even off the wind I can go faster because
I can pole the 170 genny out on one side and the cruising
chute on the other. My SA/Disp ratio can practically double
yours on a downwind run.

I would certainly be waving BuhpBye to you in anything
but winds over about 10-12 knots. Your higher hull
speed would only be an advantage in winds above that.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Your local knowledge would certainly help in such confined waters, but remember
that I
draw less than you do, even with you shoal draft keel. I don't have to reach my
hull
speed; I sail above your hull speed in 12 knots. I doubt your boat goes faster
than
mine
in light air - even if you did get way on the first powerboat wake would set you
rolling
for 15 minutes. My props are folding, though I do have drag from saildrives and a
bit
of
extra surface.

I don't think you can add much sail. We both have 130s, and your 150 only adds
about
30
square feet. I can carry my asymm a lot closer than you can carry your chute.

The simple truth is that although my PDQ is not a speedster by multihull
standards, it
is
substantially fast than most monohulls under 40 feet.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The water is too polluted up there for my liking and the winds
too unreliable. Then, there's the people of whom Bobsprit is
a good example. I would have to be crazy to go up there by
choice.

The reason I would probably beat you in a race from Key
Largo to Marathon is local knowledge (shortcuts, etc.) and
unless there was enough wind for you to reach hull speed
I would beat your boat because mine goes faster in lighter
winds. Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls. Also, I can hang
proportionately more sail area than you can.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.


That is such a pathetic challenge - its hard to see how you could keep up with
me
for
5
minutes.

For starters, my SA/disp is over 20, while yours is about 14.25. This
predicts
the
speed,
as a percentage of hullspeed, for a given wind. Meanwhile, my hull speed (not
that
I'm
constrained by it, as you are) is about 8 knots. Your hull speed is about 6.3
knots.

I don't have the Polar diagram for either boat, but lets try to do a VPP-like
prediction,
based on published data and tables. In a 14 knot breeze, a sail generates
0.02 HP
per
square foot. For you, that's 6 HP, or 1040 pounds/hp; for me that 10.8,
which is
815
pounds/hp. This means (using a table) that you'll move at about 1.05 times
the
sqrt
of
your waterline, or 1.05x4.7 or 4.9 knots. My boat, on the other hand, will be
at
1.14
x
sqrt(WL), or 6.7 knots, or 36 percent faster. I'm not even considering that
my
boat
goes
faster than the table predicts, because of the very narrow effective beam of
the
individual hulls.

Your boat will get to its 6.3 knot hull speed at some point around 20 knots
breeze -
at
which time I'll be flying away at 10+ knots. At low speed, in a 10 knot wind
you'll
be at
4.5 knots; I'll be at 6.2 knots. BTW, these number are fairly good
predictors -
I'm a
tad
slower than the 10 knot wind prediction, a tad faster than the 14 knot. This
makes
sense,
since at low speed the wetted surface affects me more than a normal boat; at
higher
speed
I have less wave making resistance.

You can talk about your 130 jib, but I have one too. Or your chute, but I
have a
new
asymm. How about your main, is it a 3 year old modern full batten main or a
blown
out
old
bag?

Do you have any chance? In light air anything can happen. And you certainly
have
local
knowledge. Short tacking up a narrow channel would not be pleasant for me.
Upwind,
the
margin might be a bit closer, though your shoal draft keel doesn't help you
much.
But
on
a relatively open course, in any wind over, say 8 knots, I'll be going 35%
faster
than
you, or more. The last time I went by your mooring I was doing 8-9 knots, and
averaged
that for the entire day.

Frankly, unless there's a dramatic change in my life, I don't think I'll get
my
boat
down
there again for a few more years (though I may be driving by at Christmas).
Why
don't
you
bring your fine bluewater craft up here next Summer?

-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back
soup
at
the
deli."

Buh-Bye!
 

Maybe.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you anywhere. Then
I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call anything over 8 knots
"a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here in the Fall.

Just to make sure the race would not be a beat, I checked the prevailing winds for the
Keys. Since I wouldn't be silly enough to stay there in the Summer, I'd be coming during
the winter Northers. Perhaps when we're heading home, the wind would have backed around
to SE. How about two races: Key Largo to Marathon when we first coming down, then
Marathon to Key Largo in April when its time to head back?


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Sometimes one must use the engine, especially when there is a current
involved or one will arrive at another destination than planned. But,
in a race where no engine use is allowed, especially here in the Keys,
you would lose every time unless the winds were stiff. Local knowledge
also means familiarity with currents which can be significant around here.

Between my superior sailing skills and my more easily driven boat you
would not have much of a chance at all of beating me in a race between
Key Largo and Marathon unless it was wintertime in a norther.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
I draw 2'11" "at the dock," maybe an extra 1/2 inch with my normal summer gear, and
about
3'1" loaded for a long trip. My draft increases inch per 800 pounds. Contrary to
what
you may believe, we are not over loaded - no genset, no A/C, no watermaker. Most of
the
gear was chose for weight and energy efficiency. Proportionally, your boat is
probably
more loaded than - you once bragged that you we overload enough to increase the
waterline
substantially. For example, while we both have positive floatation, mine is
structural
foam, yours is added weight.

Even with your 170, your SA/disp is less then mine. My 130 bumps mine from over 20 to
about 22. With the asymm its probably 25 or more. I don't need to pole out, with an
18
foot beam I just put a snatch block on the rail where ever I need one.

I'd be pretty confident I'd blow you away in anything over 8 knots, but I admit, I
don't
often bother sailing in lighter wind. For most of my trips, bouncy around in the open
ocean in a drifter isn't that much fun. Last week we went to P'town, over 50 miles.
We
were able to sail over in a 12-14 knot breeze, but coming back it was only about 6-8 -
with the engines running the apparent wind rarely went over 2 or 3 knots. I'm sure
you
understand this - you talk about motorsailing all over the Bahamas.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Your boat probably draws about the same as mine. I don't
see how a heavy multi like you sail can draw much less than
three and a half feet.

I have a 170% jenny that sweeps the deck and the clew
of which is even with the companionway when sheeted in
tight. I can go much faster than you in light winds and that
is a fact of life. Even off the wind I can go faster because
I can pole the 170 genny out on one side and the cruising
chute on the other. My SA/Disp ratio can practically double
yours on a downwind run.

I would certainly be waving BuhpBye to you in anything
but winds over about 10-12 knots. Your higher hull
speed would only be an advantage in winds above that.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Your local knowledge would certainly help in such confined waters, but remember
that I
draw less than you do, even with you shoal draft keel. I don't have to reach my
hull
speed; I sail above your hull speed in 12 knots. I doubt your boat goes faster
than
mine
in light air - even if you did get way on the first powerboat wake would set you
rolling
for 15 minutes. My props are folding, though I do have drag from saildrives and a
bit
of
extra surface.

I don't think you can add much sail. We both have 130s, and your 150 only adds
about
30
square feet. I can carry my asymm a lot closer than you can carry your chute.

The simple truth is that although my PDQ is not a speedster by multihull
standards, it
is
substantially fast than most monohulls under 40 feet.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
The water is too polluted up there for my liking and the winds
too unreliable. Then, there's the people of whom Bobsprit is
a good example. I would have to be crazy to go up there by
choice.

The reason I would probably beat you in a race from Key
Largo to Marathon is local knowledge (shortcuts, etc.) and
unless there was enough wind for you to reach hull speed
I would beat your boat because mine goes faster in lighter
winds. Yours has too much drag from propellers and
the extra wetted surface of two hulls. Also, I can hang
proportionately more sail area than you can.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
If you ever get up the nerve again to motor down the Ditch to
Key West give me a shout when you get near Key Largo.

I'll race you to Marathon and no motors allowed. You will
be sooooo far behind.


That is such a pathetic challenge - its hard to see how you could keep up with
me
for
5
minutes.

For starters, my SA/disp is over 20, while yours is about 14.25. This
predicts
the
speed,
as a percentage of hullspeed, for a given wind. Meanwhile, my hull speed (not
that
I'm
constrained by it, as you are) is about 8 knots. Your hull speed is about 6.3
knots.

I don't have the Polar diagram for either boat, but lets try to do a VPP-like
prediction,
based on published data and tables. In a 14 knot breeze, a sail generates
0.02 HP
per
square foot. For you, that's 6 HP, or 1040 pounds/hp; for me that 10.8,
which is
815
pounds/hp. This means (using a table) that you'll move at about 1.05 times
the
sqrt
of
your waterline, or 1.05x4.7 or 4.9 knots. My boat, on the other hand, will be
at
1.14
x
sqrt(WL), or 6.7 knots, or 36 percent faster. I'm not even considering that
my
boat
goes
faster than the table predicts, because of the very narrow effective beam of
the
individual hulls.

Your boat will get to its 6.3 knot hull speed at some point around 20 knots
breeze -
at
which time I'll be flying away at 10+ knots. At low speed, in a 10 knot wind
you'll
be at
4.5 knots; I'll be at 6.2 knots. BTW, these number are fairly good
predictors -
I'm a
tad
slower than the 10 knot wind prediction, a tad faster than the 14 knot. This
makes
sense,
since at low speed the wetted surface affects me more than a normal boat; at
higher
speed
I have less wave making resistance.

You can talk about your 130 jib, but I have one too. Or your chute, but I
have a
new
asymm. How about your main, is it a 3 year old modern full batten main or a
blown
out
old
bag?

Do you have any chance? In light air anything can happen. And you certainly
have
local
knowledge. Short tacking up a narrow channel would not be pleasant for me.
Upwind,
the
margin might be a bit closer, though your shoal draft keel doesn't help you
much.
But
on
a relatively open course, in any wind over, say 8 knots, I'll be going 35%
faster
than
you, or more. The last time I went by your mooring I was doing 8-9 knots, and
averaged
that for the entire day.

Frankly, unless there's a dramatic change in my life, I don't think I'll get
my
boat
down
there again for a few more years (though I may be driving by at Christmas).
Why
don't
you
bring your fine bluewater craft up here next Summer?

-jeff www.sv-loki.com
"The sea was angry that day, my friend. Like an old man trying to send back
soup
at
the
deli."

Buh-Bye!
 

Jeff... don't be drawn into this silly exercise of having Capt. Neal claim
he can best your vessel.... he hasn't a prayer of challenging even me
successfully and I'm certain your vessel is faster than mine on all points.

I must admit however that he could in all probability easily beat a C&C 32
with Bob at the helm... lets allow him that.

CM



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you
anywhere. Then
| I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call
anything over 8 knots
| "a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here
in the Fall.
|SNIP

Buh-Bye!
 

I can beat a Westsail 32 any day and your heavy full-keeler is
slower than the average Westsail 32 by a significant amount.

My beating Booby's boat is saying nothing at all. Booby's boat
is probably faster than mine by a teensy margin but since he
sails only using half his sails he doesn't have a chance even
against a Seidelman or even the fine vessel depicted in this link:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...boat_mh103.jpg


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...
Jeff... don't be drawn into this silly exercise of having Capt. Neal claim
he can best your vessel.... he hasn't a prayer of challenging even me
successfully and I'm certain your vessel is faster than mine on all points.

I must admit however that he could in all probability easily beat a C&C 32
with Bob at the helm... lets allow him that.

CM



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you
anywhere. Then
| I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call
anything over 8 knots
| "a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here
in the Fall.
|SNIP

Buh-Bye!
 

Compared to most of the nonsense here, this has been an interesting intellectual exercise.
I always wanted to do the VPP calculation, this was a good excuse.

Actually, the concept of a Key Largo to Marathon race is interesting. If its a light SE
wind, at low tide (not that there's much of a tide) I could have a problem - some of the
channels I'd have to tack up are not much wider than my boat. But other than that, this
wouldn't be a contest.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Jeff... don't be drawn into this silly exercise of having Capt. Neal claim
he can best your vessel.... he hasn't a prayer of challenging even me
successfully and I'm certain your vessel is faster than mine on all points.

I must admit however that he could in all probability easily beat a C&C 32
with Bob at the helm... lets allow him that.

CM



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you
anywhere. Then
| I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call
anything over 8 knots
| "a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here
in the Fall.
|SNIP

Buh-Bye!
 

I can beat a Westsail 32 any day and your heavy full-keeler is
slower than the average Westsail 32 by a significant amount.

Westsail 32 is not faster than the Nordic. Not even close.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Compared to most of the nonsense here, this has been an interesting
intellectual exercise.

For you opening a jar of jelly is an intellectual exercise.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

The Nordica's SA/disp is over 17; the Westsail is only 14.4. You might have a
chance
against a WetSnail, but not the Nordica.

He'd have no chance in the conditions that Westsail was built for.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

"Simple Simon" wrote in message

| I can beat a Westsail 32 any day and your heavy full-keeler is
| slower than the average Westsail 32 by a significant amount.

Your ability to be in error is only surpassed by your inability to relate to
any vessel other than your own. It's a classic indicator of limited exposure
to a wide variety of sailboats.

CM

Buh-Bye!
 

I believe Neal has confessed to being onboard two sailboats: a Hobie 16, and his beloved
Coronado.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...

"Simple Simon" wrote in message

| I can beat a Westsail 32 any day and your heavy full-keeler is
| slower than the average Westsail 32 by a significant amount.

Your ability to be in error is only surpassed by your inability to relate to
any vessel other than your own. It's a classic indicator of limited exposure
to a wide variety of sailboats.

CM

Buh-Bye!
 

That might be true if SA/DISP was the only parameter.

But, you seemed to have forgotten LWL, for example,
which, on the Westsail is two and a fraction feet more
than the Nordica resulting in a hull speed more then
ten percent higher.

It just so happens the SA/DISP ratio must be higher on
the Nordica to overcome all that extra wetted surface and
drag from aperture, fixed, three-bladed prop, horribly
inefficient, transom-hung rudder, etc. Therefore, as
you can easily see any advantage the higher SA/DISP
confers is negated by the poor design.

Since I can beat any Westsail 32, I can also beat a Nordica
30 which has a lower hull speed than the Westsail.

Next time when you attempt to argue a point be sure to
not neglect the entire picture while concentrating on one
point only. I hope this helps.




"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
The Nordica's SA/disp is over 17; the Westsail is only 14.4. You might have a chance
against a WetSnail, but not the Nordica.



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
I can beat a Westsail 32 any day and your heavy full-keeler is
slower than the average Westsail 32 by a significant amount.

My beating Booby's boat is saying nothing at all. Booby's boat
is probably faster than mine by a teensy margin but since he
sails only using half his sails he doesn't have a chance even
against a Seidelman or even the fine vessel depicted in this link:


http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...truck_boat_mh1
03.jpg


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Jeff... don't be drawn into this silly exercise of having Capt. Neal claim
he can best your vessel.... he hasn't a prayer of challenging even me
successfully and I'm certain your vessel is faster than mine on all points.

I must admit however that he could in all probability easily beat a C&C 32
with Bob at the helm... lets allow him that.

CM



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you
anywhere. Then
| I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call
anything over 8 knots
| "a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here
in the Fall.
|SNIP

Buh-Bye!
 

On the contrary. It is indicative of the fact that I have sailed in
company with many a cruising boat and it turned out I am
faster than all but a few. This is a result of my being a better
sailor and having my boat maximized for efficiency and speed.

I know the value of such things as a clean, smooth and faired
bottom. I know the necessity of an efficient, balanced spade
rudder and fin keel. I know how to trim the hull by proper weight
placement for maximum speed through the water. I know what
sail to bend on under a variety of conditions. I know how to
trim sails for maximum efficiency. I realize that a boat is slowed
down terribly by dragging a fixed prop in an aperture which is
cut into a high-wetted surface full keel. I know all about tip
vortex action on sails and how they produce unacceptable
drag. I know how to minimize said little tornadoes. I realize
the stupidity of hanging anchors on long bowsprits.

Your boat doesn't have a chance against mine until and unless
you have enough wind to reach your hull speed (probably about
twenty knots with all the drag you have) which is the only thing
about your boat that betters mine and even this only betters
mine by less than half a knot.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message ...

"Simple Simon" wrote in message

| I can beat a Westsail 32 any day and your heavy full-keeler is
| slower than the average Westsail 32 by a significant amount.

Your ability to be in error is only surpassed by your inability to relate to
any vessel other than your own. It's a classic indicator of limited exposure
to a wide variety of sailboats.

CM

Buh-Bye!
 

Now you are beginning to see a few of the reasons why
you would most likely end up going on your way with
your tail tucked. Sister Creek alone would kill you.

Remember I said no motors. That does not rule out
oars and I can row my boat at two knots in the no-wind
Sister Creek conditions. There are other legal tricks I
can and will employ just to put a multi-hull sailor in
his rightful place.



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Compared to most of the nonsense here, this has been an interesting intellectual exercise.
I always wanted to do the VPP calculation, this was a good excuse.

Actually, the concept of a Key Largo to Marathon race is interesting. If its a light SE
wind, at low tide (not that there's much of a tide) I could have a problem - some of the
channels I'd have to tack up are not much wider than my boat. But other than that, this
wouldn't be a contest.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Jeff... don't be drawn into this silly exercise of having Capt. Neal claim
he can best your vessel.... he hasn't a prayer of challenging even me
successfully and I'm certain your vessel is faster than mine on all points.

I must admit however that he could in all probability easily beat a C&C 32
with Bob at the helm... lets allow him that.

CM



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you
anywhere. Then
| I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call
anything over 8 knots
| "a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here
in the Fall.
|SNIP

Buh-Bye!
 

Neal, what is the average speed you make when passaging making?


RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Average speed on a trip across the Gulf of Mexico in a
broad reach during a norther from Panama City sea buoy
to Egmont Key sea buoy (Tampa Bay) was 7.3 knots
average speed. This is fact and recorded my my log
which is a legal document. There is perhaps a 1/2 knot
favorable current in the Gulf in this direction.


"CANDChelp" wrote in message ...
Neal, what is the average speed you make when passaging making?


RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Average speed on a trip across the Gulf of Mexico in a
broad reach during a norther from Panama City sea buoy
to Egmont Key sea buoy (Tampa Bay) was 7.3 knots
average speed. This is fact and recorded my my log
which is a legal document. There is perhaps a 1/2 knot
favorable current in the Gulf in this direction.

Jeff, what is the average speed made by your multi hull when passaging making.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

My average speed, for general conditions, is roughly 7 knots. That's what I base my
passage planning on. However, its not uncommon to do 9 or 10 if the wind is pushing 20.
I've been over 11 with plain sail without help from waves. (Surfing we've been to 13.5)
On my recent trip to Salem we were doing 5.5 to 7 knots in a 10 to 12 knot breeze (as
entered in my log, a legal document). About the same going to P'town. I generally figure
I'm a knot or two fast then monohulls my size.

The Norther's that Neal talks about are a standard wind that covers the FL area though the
winter. Its often about 20-25 knots, and can setup for 2 or 3 weeks without a break.
Since you can't cross the Gulf Stream in a Norther, hundreds of boats wait in on the East
Coast of FL for a window.

Neal might be able to beam reach in a Norther at 6.8 through the water, but its pushing it
a bit. With full sail, in 26 knots, his sail generates 22 hp, which puts him under 300
pounds per hp - enough to push through hull speed somewhat. Of course, although my
predicted speed would be 10+ knots, I'm not constrained by hull speed, so I'd be doing
more, with reefed sails.


"CANDChelp" wrote in message
...
Average speed on a trip across the Gulf of Mexico in a
broad reach during a norther from Panama City sea buoy
to Egmont Key sea buoy (Tampa Bay) was 7.3 knots
average speed. This is fact and recorded my my log
which is a legal document. There is perhaps a 1/2 knot
favorable current in the Gulf in this direction.

Jeff, what is the average speed made by your multi hull when passaging making.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Oars are not legal in any sailboat race. And remember, our stout Portuguese Water Dog
will be full grown and able to tow us at about three knots. You can see Molly is up for
it already:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1411a.jpg

Here's what my second mate thinks of your challenge:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1418a.jpg



"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Now you are beginning to see a few of the reasons why
you would most likely end up going on your way with
your tail tucked. Sister Creek alone would kill you.

Remember I said no motors. That does not rule out
oars and I can row my boat at two knots in the no-wind
Sister Creek conditions. There are other legal tricks I
can and will employ just to put a multi-hull sailor in
his rightful place.



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
Compared to most of the nonsense here, this has been an interesting intellectual
exercise.
I always wanted to do the VPP calculation, this was a good excuse.

Actually, the concept of a Key Largo to Marathon race is interesting. If its a light
SE
wind, at low tide (not that there's much of a tide) I could have a problem - some of
the
channels I'd have to tack up are not much wider than my boat. But other than that,
this
wouldn't be a contest.


"Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
...
Jeff... don't be drawn into this silly exercise of having Capt. Neal claim
he can best your vessel.... he hasn't a prayer of challenging even me
successfully and I'm certain your vessel is faster than mine on all points.

I must admit however that he could in all probability easily beat a C&C 32
with Bob at the helm... lets allow him that.

CM



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
| Your local knowledge won't help since I could shorten sail and follow you
anywhere. Then
| I would simply sprint by you at the finish. I suppose if you call
anything over 8 knots
| "a blow" you might have a case. Its a good thing you don't sail up here
in the Fall.
|SNIP

Buh-Bye!
 

What do you mean you cannot cross the Gulf Stream
in a Norther?

I have crossed to the Bahamas in a Norther and
crossed from the Bahamas to Florida in a Norther.
It's a myth that it cannot be done. Actually, it's not
all that bad in 20-25 knots of wind. Sure the seas
heap up a little steeper in a Norther but they are
manageable.

Small craft advisory does not apply to a well-found
covered-deck sailboat. It's only for open boats and
primarily for open motor boats.

I tuck one reef in the main and use the 75% jib
and go along at hull speed. The ride is not bad because
there are mostly big beam rollers with a few greybeards
now and then that might board the cockpit with a few
buckets of water now and then.

The good news is the northerly current of the Stream
seems to slow down so one does not have to fight it as
one must when sailing in southerly winds.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
My average speed, for general conditions, is roughly 7 knots. That's what I base my
passage planning on. However, its not uncommon to do 9 or 10 if the wind is pushing 20.
I've been over 11 with plain sail without help from waves. (Surfing we've been to 13.5)
On my recent trip to Salem we were doing 5.5 to 7 knots in a 10 to 12 knot breeze (as
entered in my log, a legal document). About the same going to P'town. I generally figure
I'm a knot or two fast then monohulls my size.

The Norther's that Neal talks about are a standard wind that covers the FL area though the
winter. Its often about 20-25 knots, and can setup for 2 or 3 weeks without a break.
Since you can't cross the Gulf Stream in a Norther, hundreds of boats wait in on the East
Coast of FL for a window.

Neal might be able to beam reach in a Norther at 6.8 through the water, but its pushing it
a bit. With full sail, in 26 knots, his sail generates 22 hp, which puts him under 300
pounds per hp - enough to push through hull speed somewhat. Of course, although my
predicted speed would be 10+ knots, I'm not constrained by hull speed, so I'd be doing
more, with reefed sails.


"CANDChelp" wrote in message
...
Average speed on a trip across the Gulf of Mexico in a
broad reach during a norther from Panama City sea buoy
to Egmont Key sea buoy (Tampa Bay) was 7.3 knots
average speed. This is fact and recorded my my log
which is a legal document. There is perhaps a 1/2 knot
favorable current in the Gulf in this direction.

Jeff, what is the average speed made by your multi hull when passaging making.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Cute Dog! Looks clean. Must just have gotten a bath.

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Oars are not legal in any sailboat race. And remember, our stout Portuguese Water Dog
will be full grown and able to tow us at about three knots. You can see Molly is up for
it already:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1411a.jpg

Buh-Bye!
 

Neals average speed claim, well above is theoretical hull speed seems
questionable. Jeff's speed as quoted appears understated.
There is no mistaking the specs on the Coronado. Under a steady hand in
aggresive conditions, she remains a slow cruiser. Her ratings reflect that.
Compare her specs to an older Catalina 27 TR and she's barely got a chance.
Against my C&C 32...bwaahahaa! I could sail with the main down and he wouldn't
have a chance.
Jeff's big multi? C'mon neal. You're just being foolish. That thing may be
faster on the back of a truck.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Real life sailing is far different than the imaginary sailing
you indulge in. It is a well-known fact that small boats
can make very impressive runs given the right conditions.

On one trip up the East Coast to Beaufort N.C. from
Florida my boat covered 210 miles over the ground in
a 24 hour period.

Performance is in the facts not the figures on paper.


"CANDChelp" wrote in message ...

Neals average speed claim, well above is theoretical hull speed seems
questionable. Jeff's speed as quoted appears understated.
There is no mistaking the specs on the Coronado. Under a steady hand in
aggresive conditions, she remains a slow cruiser. Her ratings reflect that.
Compare her specs to an older Catalina 27 TR and she's barely got a chance.
Against my C&C 32...bwaahahaa! I could sail with the main down and he wouldn't
have a chance.
Jeff's big multi? C'mon neal. You're just being foolish. That thing may be
faster on the back of a truck.

RB

Buh-Bye!
 

Yes - as I said in an earlier post, we motorsailed home from P'town in winds under 8
knots.


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...

Here's what my second mate thinks of your challenge:
http://www.sv-loki.com/Img_1418a.jpg

Is that propwash I see off the transom?

Buh-Bye!
 

From: "Simple Simon"
Performance is in the figments in my head not the facts on paper.