Yes but it requires a flat sea.

Cheers MC

Capt. Mooron wrote:
I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I
continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has
anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than
what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.???

CM

"Donal" wrote in message
...
|
| "Capt. Mooron" wrote in message
| ...
| Not upwind he wouldn't... not unless his rudder is so stiff as to act as
a
| friction dampener. Not for ten seconds unless you calculate momentum and
| not
| for a minute without a locked helm or a bungee cord.
|
| Like I said... regardless of seastate or wind strength.... it can't be
| done.
|
|
| I'm not so sure! If I get a chance I'll try it this weekend.
|
| When you say that it can't be done by sail trim alone, are you assuming
| that the sails are going to be set, and left in position? When I say
that
| I can steer the boat with the sails I mean that the main is being
constantly
| adjusted, and the jenny less so.
|
|
| In most wind/sea states I wouldn't be able to hold a steady course, but I
| would be able to steer to my destination. That was the purpose of my
trials
| last year .... to see if I needed an emergency rudder. The result was
that
| I don't.
|
|
|
| Regards
|
|
| Donal
| --
|
|
|

Capt. Mooron wrote:
I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I
continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has
anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than
what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.???





The navigator© wrote:

Yes but it requires a flat sea.


Not really, but if there is a sea running then it requires both skill & patience.
Can you say "dynamic equilibrium"? C'mon, say it with me now. It's really just a
fancy word for saying that the boat will swing one way, then the other, but will
be able to be steered on a course averaging between the swings.

The trickiest part is to keep the boat close to the wind without getting thrown
through stays by some combination of gust & wave; or if the circumstances are such
that this is going to happen anyway, to coax the boat back onto the desired
course.

I'm having a hard time imagining circumstances where one could not at least
immobilize the rudder, much less rig some type of emergency steering. In one
Bermuda Race a few years ago, one boat that lost it's rudder used a bunk lashed to
the spinnaker pole as an emergency rudder & tiller.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

Capt. Mooron wrote:
I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I
continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath. Has
anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for more than
what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.???





The navigator© wrote:

Yes but it requires a flat sea.


Not really, but if there is a sea running then it requires both skill & patience.
Can you say "dynamic equilibrium"? C'mon, say it with me now. It's really just a
fancy word for saying that the boat will swing one way, then the other, but will
be able to be steered on a course averaging between the swings.

The trickiest part is to keep the boat close to the wind without getting thrown
through stays by some combination of gust & wave; or if the circumstances are such
that this is going to happen anyway, to coax the boat back onto the desired
course.

I'm having a hard time imagining circumstances where one could not at least
immobilize the rudder, much less rig some type of emergency steering. In one
Bermuda Race a few years ago, one boat that lost it's rudder used a bunk lashed to
the spinnaker pole as an emergency rudder & tiller.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug, I tried and tried, because the catyawl is supposed to be
ideal for this, but the longest I've ever been able to beat with
the rudder free and stay on course is a minute or so, then some
combination of wave and wind will knock the boat a small but
critical amount, the free rudder will swing a bit, and suddenly
we're doing donuts. (I don't mind doing donuts while I'm at the
tiller, even if I did bust the mainsheet track buffers doing it
once.) So I lash tillers whatever. I suspect tht if I totally
lost my rudder, it would be a lot easier to sail with sails alone
than with a rudder still there but swinging free...

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

and suddenly
we're doing donuts.

Wow, just like Gay Ganzy!


RB

Bobsprit sweetie, do you know what I'm actually talking about? I
don't know what you might call the manoeuvre under sail over
there.

CANDChelp wrote:

and suddenly
we're doing donuts.

Wow, just like Gay Ganzy!

RB

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

Bobsprit sweetie, do you know what I'm actually talking about? I
don't know what you might call the manoeuvre under sail over
there.

It's called, "why would you let go of the tiller, dopey?"

RB

CANDChelp wrote:

Bobsprit sweetie, do you know what I'm actually talking about? I
don't know what you might call the manoeuvre under sail over
there.

It's called, "why would you let go of the tiller, dopey?"

RB

Pick a good sailing breeze (say, 15-18knots). Helm hard over.
Tack. Keep the helm hard over. Jibe. Keep the helm hard over.
Tack. (Keep the helm hard over. Jibe. With appropriate sail
handling and a fin keeler, if you've done it rightyou should by
now be spinning the boat through multiple 360sin close to her own
length, not moving anywhere in terms of VMG. It is a test of the
boats manoeuvrability and the crew's ability to handle sails.
Repeat until someone throws up from vertigo or the watching crowd
at the whatever Boat Festival applauds at the skill. finesse and
co-ordination it demonstrates. I do it singlehanded.

Now, is this a troll, Bobsprit? Or am I describing reality? Let's
see how fast you respond.

--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

Flying Tadpole wrote:


Doug, I tried and tried, because the catyawl is supposed to be
ideal for this, but the longest I've ever been able to beat with
the rudder free and stay on course is a minute or so, then some
combination of wave and wind will knock the boat a small but
critical amount, the free rudder will swing a bit, and suddenly
we're doing donuts.

It might be that because of the hard chines and/or the leeboards, you get enough
momentary Z-axis torque to overcome corrective feedback from the rig. Maybe if you
actively sheeted the mizzen, you could get slightly better results (or at least larger
diameter donuts)?


(I don't mind doing donuts while I'm at the
tiller, even if I did bust the mainsheet track buffers doing it
once.) So I lash tillers whatever. I suspect tht if I totally
lost my rudder, it would be a lot easier to sail with sails alone
than with a rudder still there but swinging free...

Usually the rudder swinging free creates more problems in trying to steer, and also
stresses the boat/rudder/rudder post unduly. Locking it in place is much better.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

Flying Tadpole wrote:


Doug, I tried and tried, because the catyawl is supposed to be
ideal for this, but the longest I've ever been able to beat with
the rudder free and stay on course is a minute or so, then some
combination of wave and wind will knock the boat a small but
critical amount, the free rudder will swing a bit, and suddenly
we're doing donuts.

It might be that because of the hard chines and/or the leeboards, you get enough
momentary Z-axis torque to overcome corrective feedback from the rig. Maybe if you
actively sheeted the mizzen, you could get slightly better results (or at least larger
diameter donuts)?

Well, yes, but I thought we were discussing a boat already
sail-balanced. I can easily sail Lady Kate with the rudder free
if I'm playing the mizzen all the time, but what I want to do is
set the boat up and have her sail herself. She won't do it for
long, unless the tiller is actually lashed (then she'll sail
herself better to windward than I can)

Re the chines, yes, i think that contributes, with a secondary
contribution from the combination of the extreme shoal draft and
the overhangs bow and stern. (We're not talking conditions big
enough for her to dig the bow in and yaw). THe leeboards though
are locked laterally, bilgeboards rather than leeboards, and
should have no more or less contribution than an equivalent fin
keel.
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
Learn what lies below the waves of cyberspace!
http://www.internetopera.netfirms.com

Doug... the topic was based on Bob's claim to be able to set or trim sails
so that a boat can hold and maintain course despite the rudder being free to
swing without restriction up wind from a beam to a close reach. I called
bull****.

Now if you add a drogue to the stern that alone changes the "dynamics" and
emergency steering systems jury rigged would no doubt alter the outcome to
allow progress. It may even be believable that with sufficent and constant
adjustment of sails in flat seas and steady light wind that you can split
the swings to make progress upwind..... but trim to sail to a point without
a rudder.... I can't see it.

CM


"DSK" wrote in message
...
| Capt. Mooron wrote:
| I'l try it again as well... I might get it to work on a reach if I
| continuously adjust and trim the sails.... I'm not holding my breath.
Has
| anyone else managed to sail upwing with a rudder swinging free for
more than
| what would constitute normal momentum over a short period.???
|
|
|
|
|
| The navigator© wrote:
|
| Yes but it requires a flat sea.
|
|
| Not really, but if there is a sea running then it requires both skill &
patience.
| Can you say "dynamic equilibrium"? C'mon, say it with me now. It's really
just a
| fancy word for saying that the boat will swing one way, then the other,
but will
| be able to be steered on a course averaging between the swings.
|
| The trickiest part is to keep the boat close to the wind without getting
thrown
| through stays by some combination of gust & wave; or if the circumstances
are such
| that this is going to happen anyway, to coax the boat back onto the
desired
| course.
|
| I'm having a hard time imagining circumstances where one could not at
least
| immobilize the rudder, much less rig some type of emergency steering. In
one
| Bermuda Race a few years ago, one boat that lost it's rudder used a bunk
lashed to
| the spinnaker pole as an emergency rudder & tiller.
|
| Fresh Breezes- Doug King
|
|