75 miles off and return in 3 days? That's 50 miles a day?
Wow, now that's fast!

"CANDChelp" wrote in message
...
Next week we're taking C&C 32 to Coney Island to
watch the sharks feed!

Uh oh, the big open ocean trip. Good luck.

Nope...two weeks after that is our 'Cruise" straight out offshore. We only
have
3 days, but I'm hoping we can get 75 miles offshore at least.

RB

Polars are the fare of armchair sailors. Anyone who has actually sailed
downwind against a faster boat when said faster boat was jybing downwind
and getting further and further behind realizes that in real life sailing dead
downwind is faster for a keelboat that is restrained by a theoretical hull
speed. The bottom line is 15 degrees does not make a boat go all that
much faster because sail area is effectively reduced. The main, blankets
the jib or genny where running dead downwind leaves both the genny
and mail totally exposed to the wind.

Show me an America's cup where on a dead downwind leg boats are
jybing downwind and coming out ahead and I might give a little credence
to your nonsense. The races I've watched show these cutting edge vessels
running straight downwind and only turning slightly now and then to
keep boats upwind of them from blocking their wind.

Racing cats and tris, now that's a different story. Given strong winds these
craft are close hauled or close reaching on all legs of a race course because
they do, indeed, have the capability to tack downwind and complete the
course faster.



"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
Hey Neal - you're beginning to sound like Jax. What's next - are you going to claim
Einstein proved you can't navigate in the fog?

I wouldn't expect an English major to remember any high school trigonometry (assuming you
ever passed the course) but it only takes a simple calculation to show that you only go 4%
further when you run at 165 degrees instead of 180. You only have to go a little faster
to make this up. In fact, you only have to go 15% faster to make up the difference in
running at 150 degrees. Thus, you can jibe through 60 degrees true and only need a 15%
increase to make it worth while.

Here's a polar for a Catalina 36. I don't think anyone would call this a planing boat,
especially in light air:

http://albertson.sytes.net/~chris/C3...6Polars_al.gif

The chart clearly shows that you can go 25% faster in light air by jibing downwind in
light air.

Are you claiming that all the Polar Diagrams are false?


"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
A displacement boat that does not plane will always
arrive at a destination in less time by running directly
downwind to it. Gybing downwind does result in slightly
faster speed through the water in lighter winds but the
extra distance traveled results in a longer time to arrive
at the destination. This is just plain common sense and
physics at work. Anyone who claims something different
is living in Lala Land. You're beginning to sound as
stupid and ignorant as Jeff Morris.


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:46:06 -0400, "Simple Simon" wrote:

That is incorrect information for any displacement monohull where
it is always faster to run straight downwind.

Baloney! An under canvassed tank like yours or Bobadil's might benefit quite a
bit from gibeing back and forth rather than going directly downwind. I do better
going strait downwind, because I can put up the mylar main and 170 genoa, or a
spinnaker and take advantage.

BB

Booby has to do about 30 miles first to get past Sandy Hook. That includes Hell Gate, the
East River, NY Harbor, Verrazano Narrows, etc. This will be more challenging than going a
few miles offshore.


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
75 miles off and return in 3 days? That's 50 miles a day?
Wow, now that's fast!

"CANDChelp" wrote in message
...
Next week we're taking C&C 32 to Coney Island to
watch the sharks feed!

Uh oh, the big open ocean trip. Good luck.

Nope...two weeks after that is our 'Cruise" straight out offshore. We only
have
3 days, but I'm hoping we can get 75 miles offshore at least.

RB

Booby has to do about 30 miles first to get past Sandy Hook. That includes
Hell Gate, the
East River, NY Harbor, Verrazano Narrows, etc. This will be more challenging
than going a
few miles offshore.

That is why we are all looking forward to it eagerly. I don't have an
Eldridge's here, but I would be interested to work out when he can feasibly
make it through the Narrows from City Island on Friday July 25. Maybe he gets
to Atl Highlands for the first night. Leaves Sat morn and turns around Sunday
dawn. 75 nm will take him 15 hours. Looks tough to do it and get home Sunday.

It wasn't all about jybing downwind.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

Show me an America's cup where on a dead downwind leg boats are
jybing downwind and coming out ahead and I might give a little credence
to your nonsense. The races I've watched show these cutting edge vessels
running straight downwind and only turning slightly now and then to
keep boats upwind of them from blocking their wind.


This has got to be the dumbest thing you've said in, well, at least a few days.

Perhaps you will recall that they showed the downwind "laylines" - what do you think that
was about?

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:24:13 -0400, "Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom
wrote:

Show me an America's cup where on a dead downwind leg boats are
jybing downwind and coming out ahead and I might give a little credence
to your nonsense. The races I've watched show these cutting edge vessels
running straight downwind and only turning slightly now and then to
keep boats upwind of them from blocking their wind.


This has got to be the dumbest thing you've said in, well, at least a few days.

Perhaps you will recall that they showed the downwind "laylines" - what do you think that
was about?

Not to mention the question was specifically regarding boats without spinnakers.

S/V Cat's Meow
http://www.catsmeow.org

It was about jibing downwind. Here's a rather technical article describing the sail
design for IACC boats.

"While it is impossible to sail directly upwind, it is possible to sail directly
downwind but as shown in Fig. 3, with true wind speeds such as 5 m/s,
the optimum VMG occurs with a true wind angle of 150 degrees."

http://mapp1.de.unifi.it/persone/All...chards2001.pdf

BTW, its either jibe or gybe, not jybe. That's about as silly as saying "ded reckoning."

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
news
It wasn't all about jybing downwind.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

Show me an America's cup where on a dead downwind leg boats are
jybing downwind and coming out ahead and I might give a little credence
to your nonsense. The races I've watched show these cutting edge vessels
running straight downwind and only turning slightly now and then to
keep boats upwind of them from blocking their wind.


This has got to be the dumbest thing you've said in, well, at least a few days.

Perhaps you will recall that they showed the downwind "laylines" - what do you think
that
was about?

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
|
| Such a hopeless dreamer you are. You just can't seem to understand that
| carrying your way (momentum) only matters if the way is generated
| quickly. A big, heavy, full-keeler not only has more inertia to carry but
| it has more inertia to overcome. The bottom line is the lighter the boat,
| the faster the boat in light and heavy winds. If this were not the case
| race boats would all be big heavy tubs like your Nordica.

You discuss agility over power.... on a medium that favours power over
agility. Based on your misunderstanding of the basic comprehension of sea
states and variations in the uniformity of wind strength.... you erroneously
come to the conclusion that your lighter vessel can challenge the sheer
brute strength of a solid streamlined full keel cruiser. You speak of
inertia and yet have not seen or felt the acceleration and steadfast force
generated by a true blue water designed vessel. If you had to date been
exposed to such brute muscle... it would squelch your argument regarding the
delusional idea of your coastal cruiser offering any competition. Race boats
are bred for coastal waters and buoy races.... and as displayed by the
AC... have a tendency to fall apart in short order.


|
| You cannot expect your heavy voyaging boat to be fast. It isn't and
| it never will be. My Coronado 27 which is a mid-weight boat will leave
| your heavy boat behind in any winds of ten knots or less. In heavy winds
| going offwind your boat might be a little faster because of its longer
LWL.
| In heavy winds going upwind yours will definitely be faster because it
| has the weight and power to shoulder the seas.

Correct... I did not expect it.... like you, I assumed that lighter and
frailer construction would result in a faster, dinghy like performance......
what I found out is that the cruiser's efficient ability to transform wind
from a finicky, altering state into sheer directional power is what allows
me to easily pass the frailer vessels. The words "Authority", "Supremacy",
"Dominance", "Comfort" & "Security" spring to mind when one is aboard my
vessel. I could not only dispatch you in short order on any given point of
sail..... but I could do it even if we switched vessels.

CM

It works out OK next Friday. If he hits the "slack before ebb" at Hell Gate at 7:53AM, he
can ride the ebb out for the next 4 or 5 hours. Coming back on Sunday is harder - he
wants to ride the flood in and get to Hell Gate again at slack before ebb, but now its
9:25 AM or 9:43 PM. He could hit the morning slack if he passes Sandy Hook early, maybe 6
AM


"SkitchNYC" wrote in message
...
Booby has to do about 30 miles first to get past Sandy Hook. That includes
Hell Gate, the
East River, NY Harbor, Verrazano Narrows, etc. This will be more challenging
than going a
few miles offshore.

That is why we are all looking forward to it eagerly. I don't have an
Eldridge's here, but I would be interested to work out when he can feasibly
make it through the Narrows from City Island on Friday July 25. Maybe he gets
to Atl Highlands for the first night. Leaves Sat morn and turns around Sunday
dawn. 75 nm will take him 15 hours. Looks tough to do it and get home Sunday.

I watched some of the races on TV and they did not gybe downwind.

Btw 'jibing' is incorrect unless one is using a jib to run downwind
which is pretty stupid because a spinnaker works much better.

Jybing or gybing are the corrent terms.

PUTZ!


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
It was about jibing downwind. Here's a rather technical article describing the sail
design for IACC boats.

"While it is impossible to sail directly upwind, it is possible to sail directly
downwind but as shown in Fig. 3, with true wind speeds such as 5 m/s,
the optimum VMG occurs with a true wind angle of 150 degrees."

http://mapp1.de.unifi.it/persone/All...chards2001.pdf

BTW, its either jibe or gybe, not jybe. That's about as silly as saying "ded reckoning."

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
news
It wasn't all about jybing downwind.


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...

Show me an America's cup where on a dead downwind leg boats are
jybing downwind and coming out ahead and I might give a little credence
to your nonsense. The races I've watched show these cutting edge vessels
running straight downwind and only turning slightly now and then to
keep boats upwind of them from blocking their wind.


This has got to be the dumbest thing you've said in, well, at least a few days.

Perhaps you will recall that they showed the downwind "laylines" - what do you think
that
was about?