"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:06:05 -0500, Jean Pudl wrote:

Bart Senior wrote:
Welcome to the group Jean. I'll forgive you for making
an ass of yourself in your first post.

There's little hope I can match your 100% record!

It is easy to make
hasty remarks that cannot be retracted.

Did I say something incorrect?


Why don't you introduce yourself. You must work for
US Sailing in some capacity. Please elaborate.

No connection at all, other than having been a member for several
periods. I have, however, been a beneficiary of their work on
numerous occasions, in particular, whenever I've raced. I've also
sailed a number of times at ASA affiliates and my wife has taken one
of their courses, as have a number of friends. I have no complaints
with either.



My statement about the ASA and US Sailing being nearly
identical is with regards to their keelboat training programs.

Keelboat training is a tiny part of USSailing's operation. Perhaps
you should have qualified your comments.


ASA is not involved with racing as you know. While US
Sailing on the other hand, has it's roots in racing--it is too
bad they did not stay with their expertise.

Why? Are you claiming they should stay out of keel-boat training
because another group sees them as competition? You've even said that
for the students it doesn't matter much. It would seem that
ultimately its the quality of the school that counts, not their
affiliation.


So you think the clients of ASA are yuppies? That is
funny!

That's the demographic (more or less) of those who are seeking the
keelboat certification offered by both USSailing and ASA. The
difference is that this is the only business of ASA, because that's
where the money is. USSailing, on the other hand, serves the entire
boating community.


If you knew anything about sail training you would know
that the "people" who take such courses span all age
groups. If any group dominated, it would be middle
aged people--not yuppies. I've taught over 700 people
to sail from children to one man nearly 100 years old.
Empty-nester are the most common students.

OK. Yuppies that grew up. Anyway you look it, this is an aspect of
the sport for those on the affluent side of the curve. The single
mother with three kids and two jobs is not likely to need a bare boat
chartering certificate. She may however, be interested in sending her
kids to a community sailing program, or a YMCA camp.

I've also taught hundreds of students. The difference is that I did
it at non-profit organizations and no one ever paid more then a few
hundred dollars for a summer of sailing. Most fees were under $50.

I'm not claiming that for-profit training is bad, but I never saw much
help from ASA in the non-profit world. And from my point of view,
claiming the two organizations are "identical" is ludicrous.


Furthermore, the demographics of ASA sailing school
students are identical to the clients of sailing schools
following US Sailing certifications. So what is the point
of your bizarre statement?

That may be true in the area that ASA focuses on. But isn't that a
tautology? Where they cater to the same customers they have the same
demographics? What is bizarre is your claim that because they overlap
in this area they are "identical."


You seem to imply sailing students are a bunch of dolts.

I only implied something about you. And you're certainly living up to
that implication now!


Perhaps you grew up with sailing and this is the reason
for your arrogant attitude. Many of my students have
become fine sailors through their love of the sport.

and your point is ... ? You have fine students so you're allowed to
be a dolt? OK, if you insist.

I'd be willing to bet they have better skills than yours in
some areas. I congratulate them while my opinion of you
has dropped yet another notch.

Oh. I point out that you said something blatantly wrong and therefore
I'm a bad sailer. You must be a Republican.



US Sailing has been knocking ASA for eleven years. US
Sailing claims it has a higher standard and tells everyone
that the ASA standard is lower.

Oh, now we see. You have a big chip there. To be honest, I don't
know much about the merits of either side of this feud. I don't care
much, and I doubt anyone not in the business cares much.

The rest of your material is interesting, but misses the point. US
Sailing IS the "National Governing Body" of the sport according to an
act of Congress. That is a matter of fact. They are the folks that
run the national team, send sailers to the Olympics, trains the race
committees, etc. Although this is primarily oriented towards racing,
its a historical fact that until about 25 years ago most recreational
sailing training was run by yacht clubs and other non-profits that
were the same groups that ran racing. Its no surprise that their
national group would get involved in training. Further, while ASA is
focused on keelboat training, these non-profits often deal with small
boat training, especially for kids.

If you have any doubt, here's their respective affiliates for your
home state:
https://www.american-sailing.com/lea...nnecticut.html
http://www.ussailing.org/csa/memberOrgs.asp?state=CT


So let me repeat. You made three factual errors in your short post;
the truth is:

USSailing IS the "National Governing Body" by act of Congress. The
comment by ARG that started this thread (that ASA was the governing
body) was incorrect, the article he referenced never claimed it, and
the ASA site never claims it.

USSailing IS a non-profit. The fact that some for-profit companies
use their materials is irrelevant.

USSailing and ASA are not "identical," they are very different
organizations. They just happen to overlap in one area. You seem
obsessed with this point, defining USSailing by one small piece of the
work.

I never once mentioned that USSailing is better or worse than ASA, I
only said your claims were factually wrong. The bizarre thing is that
you've even admitted that you were wrong in two of these points, but
you've tried to hide that by claiming that I have some sort of evil
agenda.

snip interesting but off topic discussion of the history and relative
merits to the two training programs


I eagerly await your response Jean. Try to come up with
some credible arguments next time.


I don't think I could possibly do a better job of landing a giant
Bart-fish than this!

JP





"Jean Pudl" wrote

Bart Senior wrote:

Both groups are virtually identical yet they
don't accept each others standards! Absurd!


Each of these groups is FOR PROFIT, not
for sailing.

Right. One group is For Profit, focuses almost entirely on charging
yuppies to train them for sailing their first boat or bare boat
charter and was created about 20 years ago. The other is a Non-Profit
organization that deals with all aspects of the sport, is the National
Governing Body for much of the racing in the US, develops and manages
the handicap systems (IMS, PHRF, Americap, etc) and is over 100 years
old.

I can see why you think they're virtually identical.




Bravo! Well done.



Quite a smackdown!

Amen!