PG wrote:
While I think I understand your admiration of the kibbutz culture, it takes
a stongly ideological person to participate and make it work. I knew one
person who had been part of the kibbutz, and while one data point doesn't
constitute proof of anything, he gave me the feeling that he would be a good
communist if he was so inclined, as his ideological fervor was almost
religious in intensity. By contrast, the majority of people I come across
in the North American context seem very unwilling to share, and although
most pride themselves on being "good people", there is very little
enthusiasm for restricting their own freedom (to do, to consume, to enjoy
the fruits of their labor) in support of the common good. Part of my work
involves getting into peoples' heads to understand how and why they make
various decisions (purchase of goods, selection of a service provider,
deciding how to earn their living), and I am continually amazed at the
mental gymnastics many make to justify their attitudes and positions (this
applies to all positions on the political/economic spectrum). Over the
years, I've come to the conclusion that if an incentive system doesn't offer
immediate gratification, it has little chance of success. Yes, there are
always exceptions to the rule, and I've met many fine, principled and aware
individuals who do the right thing, but they are unfortunately in the
minority. It's not to say that the rest are "bad" people, but they are not
convinced that the reduction or denial of their desires will bring about a
better overall situation.

So to answer your question, until it is in the immediate interest of most
people to stop fouling the environment, taking the necessary steps (choices)
to do it won't happen. Why should anyone give up their fun and enjoyment,
when the whole mass culture is reinforcing the notion that "consumption" is
good, and even necessary. Those who don't buy into this concept are
abnormal, by definition. I'm OK with being different - it gives me the
freedom to see things from a different reference frame.

I noticed that you were admiring the system in Norway. I spend some time in
Sweden and the culture there is tangibly different from North America.
There is much more focus on "family" and "community", and by extension the
environment. On the other hand, Sweden has been a relatively homogeneous
society until recently, and the influx of immigrants with very different
social values has created strains. A similar view is also apparently
occuring in Holland, with people less willing to put up with the
non-assimilation of immigrant populations.

Ultimately, as a believer in democracy, we need to elect the right leaders,
who can then start steering the ship of culture in a different direction.
There is yet other aspect to consider. We talk as members of the western
culture, but the majority of the world's population do not belong to this
group. The effect of China, India, Russia, the countries of Africa and
South America will have a tremendous impact on the well-being of the
environment. It is true that the majority of energy consumption is by
"western" nations, but the others are trying very hard to catch up, and even
if we all stop doing bad stuff in North America, it may not be enough to
save the planet. Again, it appears that technology will have to be the
saviour, in providing cheap, non-polluting power to all. No, it doesn't
exist yet, but when the pain becomes acute enough, necessity will provide
incentive to invent. And if we fail, ... guess we weren't as smart as we
thought we were. In that case, the world will have another example of an
over-specialized species that couldn't cope with a changing environment.

I better get out and enjoy the waters with my family. And while we're at
it, pick up some garbage.


Good idea about the garbage, but more like likely than not it'll be TOO
LITTLE TOO LATE. The HUNGRY SHARK forces people to become predators of
their own--small ones, big ones--until they devour each other. I bet
you SARDINES want to remain sardines if they had a chance of survival
by cooperating. Both the forces COMPETITION AND COOPERATION ARE PRESENT
IN NATURE (yes, even predators cooperate) but cooperation is
conspicuously absent in a jungle called capitalism. Well, the results
are also conspicuous...

Kalifornia Kritter wrote:
Hey, the House of Mouse has done pretty well for central Florida. You
have paved roads and a lot of infrastructure built up in what was once
a mosquito-infested swamp. I remember what it looked like 40 years ago.
Wall to wall bugs...

When I returned to Kalifornia from Florida, I had a palmetto bug
hitchhiker hiding under the seat of my Jaguar. I kept killing palmetto
bugs and thought I'd got the last one, but there was always one more...

Just like your posts, Donkey. Always one more. If you answer, for
Dulcinea's sake, let that post be the last one! Dear Gawd, please make
Donkey stop!!!!

Yeah, all your polluting California stupid sprawl (read "Fast Food
Nation")brought to Florida is 5 hurricanes in a year. Florida had a
nice train to Key West and it went the way the of the trolleys in LA.
Watch "Roger Rabbit" if you don't believe me.