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Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their
eternal quest to survive the big fish... The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS? Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town) to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck... But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday, hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match (they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close call... It wasn't a surprise for me though. The cigarette boats routinely roar close to the beach to signal who the seas belong to. Hey, it belongs to the big fish! NOTE: The attendants of this West Marine store I went to to get a flag for the kayak told me of the motorboats, "Hey be careful. They don't care." WELCOME TO BE JUNGLE (beware of the big fish) http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? (the sardine revolution) http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
ComandanteBanana wrote
Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their eternal quest to survive the big fish... Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your position on the issues you did address. The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS? Here is is in a nutshell. It's called "The Rule of Tonage." I outweigh you by . . . well, by a lot of times. In an encounter between my boat and yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. If you aren't, you'll be turned into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back, that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. It's call survival. Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory. They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do. Other than that, here's another anwer. You don't have to give right of way. Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common sense, have the right of way over powered ones. Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town) to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck... They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. If they intoxicated, report them. There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for automobile driers. There are speed limits posted all over the place and quite a few that apply even when not posted. On top of it all, there are maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice. Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like crossing any other highway. You would be ill advised to pull out right in front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. You're the one entering the channel. You're the one responsible for doing it safely. Imagine that. But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday, hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match (they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close call... You don't know that at all. There are rules for who has the right of way on the ocean as well. Have you bothered to research them? While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course. For all you know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS course from one point to the next. Your assumption that he chose to bother you is a bit off the mark. I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more room. I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go through mine might be. On the other hand, if you were paddling into his path, you also had the option to give yourself more room. Mostly, I think you think you should have equal rights and you're not happy that you weren't able to impose your will on those bigger than you are. I have the same problems with cops. You'll get over it. I did. Lee |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 14, 1:09*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
ComandanteBanana wrote Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their eternal quest to survive the big fish... Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your position on the issues you did address. Perhaps gaining ground for the little boats out there is ambitious enough not to take upon my shoulders the defense of the whole sardine population. The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS? Here is is in a nutshell. *It's called "The Rule of Tonage." *I outweigh you by . . . well, by a lot of times. *In an encounter between my boat and yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. *If you aren't, you'll be turned into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back, that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. *It's call survival. *Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory. They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do. Good to know. Just by choosing to be a kayaker you'll be a strong contender for the Darwin's awards. But since I consider myself a SITTING DUCK, I'm actually doing little to deserve that award. The motorboat driver is better qualified. He's playing the SHARK here. Other than that, here's another anwer. *You don't have to give right of way. Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common sense, have the right of way over powered ones. Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town) to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck... They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. *If they intoxicated, report them. *There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for automobile driers. *There are speed limits posted all over the place and quite a few that apply even when not posted. *On top of it all, there are maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice. If the drivers of those motorboats are captains, then I'm the captain of my kayak. Hey, I better leave that honor for the sailboat captains. Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like crossing any other highway. *You would be ill advised to pull out right in front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. *You're the one entering the channel. *You're the one responsible for doing it safely. *Imagine that. Ha, ha, ha. The sitting duck is responsible for sitting there... http://www.whimsical-art.com/ProdIma...ttingDuck1.jpg Now you explain to me how a 4mph kayak dodges a 40mph motorboats. A lot of praying, right? ;) But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday, hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match (they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close call... You don't know that at all. *There are rules for who has the right of way on the ocean as well. *Have you bothered to research them? Why research them if they are not practiced? The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before. And if it is in the books so the books must be changed because the lawyers (who work for the motorboat industry) are NOT considering kayaks when writing them. While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course. *For all you know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS course from one point to the next. *Your assumption that he chose to bother you is a bit off the mark. It was plain intimidation at worst, or simply ignoring the kayak the way you would ignore, say, an ant. Do you change your course over an ant? I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more room. *I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go through mine might be. *On the other hand, if you were paddling into his path, you also had the option to give yourself more room. Which means, I should stop paddling and become a sitting duck, not a slow duck. You know my strategy? Just ignore him, and go on living like this is my last day. ;) Mostly, I think you think you should have equal rights and *you're not happy that you weren't able to impose your will on those bigger than you are. *I have the same problems with cops. *You'll get over it. *I did. Lee Hey, don't generalize. Some cops are good just as some boaters are good, and even deserve to be called captains. |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
It is a jungle. From the law of gross tonnage that Lee mentions to
the fact that there are oodles of natural things out there that can kill you. Powerboats aren't the only thing. (As a matter of fact, I've had a powerboat with a bunch of teenagers almost sink their own boat trying to play "sink the kayak" when they caught me on a lake in Virginia. They gave up in frustration, I barely even got wet. Unless it runs you over or something, a powerboat is no match for a kayak. It can seem a little scary, however.) It is much safer to sit inside and watch TV. |
might makes right
On Aug 14, 2:53*pm, Galen Hekhuis wrote:
It is a jungle. *From the law of gross tonnage that Lee mentions to the fact that there are oodles of natural things out there that can kill you. *Powerboats aren't the only thing. * (As a matter of fact, I've had a powerboat with a bunch of teenagers almost sink their own boat trying to play "sink the kayak" when they caught me on a lake in Virginia. *They gave up in frustration, I barely even got wet. *Unless it runs you over or something, a powerboat is no match for a kayak. It can seem a little scary, however.) *It is much safer to sit inside and watch TV. You can always watch kayaking videos, right? ;) But this kid makes the wrong assumption first (it's NOT a jungle) and then realized the hard truth... 'Looks like I’m wrong. According to this coast guard captain, one should always assume that “might makes right” on the water. If you see a vehicle larger than you....avoid it!' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDue...eature=related Yeah man, you are in worse situation that a bike. Here you are fair game for every single predator out there. And the least of your worries are sharks and alligators. |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 14, 1:09*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. *If they intoxicated, report them. *There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for automobile driers. *There are speed limits posted all over the place and quite a few that apply even when not posted. *On top of it all, there are maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice. I'll like you to elaborate more on this. Is enforcement as harsh and frequent as on the roads? Are there open container laws? Are there speed limits? And are there wake requirements? Not that I care about the last issue. ;) |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
Here is is in a nutshell. It's called "The Rule of Tonage." I outweigh
you by . . . well, by a lot of times. In an encounter between my boat and yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. If you aren't, you'll be turned into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back, that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. It's call survival. Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory. They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do. Good to know. Just by choosing to be a kayaker you'll be a strong contender for the Darwin's awards. Not at all. Your question was why you have to give way. The answer is because you don't stand a chance if you don't. Just like motorcyclists, the one most likely to die in an accident is the one that had better make sure one doesn't happen. But since I consider myself a SITTING DUCK, I'm actually doing little to deserve that award. The motorboat driver is better qualified. He's playing the SHARK here. Only if you assume that he's trying to get you. If he was, you'd be the first to know. I suppose if a rock were falling, you'd step under it and blame the rock for hitting you. If the drivers of those motorboats are captains, then I'm the captain of my kayak. OK with me. Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like crossing any other highway. You would be ill advised to pull out right in front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. You're the one entering the channel. You're the one responsible for doing it safely. Imagine that. Ha, ha, ha. The sitting duck is responsible for sitting there... Were you sitting there or crossing the channel? Make up your mind. Now you explain to me how a 4mph kayak dodges a 40mph motorboats. A lot of praying, right? ;) You don't. You give way. It appears you had the answer to your question all along. You just don't like it. You don't know that at all. There are rules for who has the right of way on the ocean as well. Have you bothered to research them? Why research them if they are not practiced? So you know what they are and can act accordingly? So you can report those that fail to abide by them? Did you learn the rules of driving even though they are routinely violated? The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before. If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on the food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change your choice. And if it is in the books so the books must be changed because the lawyers (who work for the motorboat industry) are NOT considering kayaks when writing them. You don't know what the laws are, but you know what those that wrote them were thinking? The lawyers that wrote the laws were not, in fact, working for the motorboat industry. If they were, there would be no give way rules for sailboats and their damned sure would be no manatee zones where there are not, normally, any manatees. It was plain intimidation at worst, or simply ignoring the kayak the way you would ignore, say, an ant. Do you change your course over an ant? Sometimes. I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more room. I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go through mine might be. On the other hand, if you were paddling into his path, you also had the option to give yourself more room. Which means, I should stop paddling and become a sitting duck, not a slow duck. Which means that paddling into the path of an oncoming speeding boat is kind of stupid. Refer back to the Darwin discussion. You know my strategy? Just ignore him, and go on living like this is my last day. ;) Works for me, but it makes me wonder why you're complaining here. Lee Mostly, I think you think you should have equal rights and you're not happy that you weren't able to impose your will on those bigger than you are. I have the same problems with cops. You'll get over it. I did. Lee Hey, don't generalize. Some cops are good just as some boaters are good, and even deserve to be called captains. |
might makes right
'Looks like I’m wrong. According to this coast guard captain, one
should always assume that “might makes right” on the water. If you see a vehicle larger than you....avoid it!' Anything else may be right, but there's a reason for the words "dead right." Lee |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. If they intoxicated,
report them. There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for automobile driers. There are speed limits posted all over the place and quite a few that apply even when not posted. On top of it all, there are maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice. I'll like you to elaborate more on this. Is enforcement as harsh and frequent as on the roads? More so in the intracoastal. Every city in S. Florida, plus the Coast Guard, Marine Patol the Fish and Game Commission has boats on the intracoastal enforcing the laws. Are there open container laws? Probably not, if for no other reason, because a lot of the boats, mine, for example, have bars aboard. Having opened containers does not translate into being impaired. There are laws against operating a boat under the influence. They're quite similar to the ones for drivers if you're a civilian. They're must more stringent if you're a licensed captain. Are there speed limits? Yes. How does it happen you have not observed the signs? They're all over the intracoastal. And are there wake requirements? Yes. They're posted in various places along the intracoastal too. Not that I care about the last issue. ;) You might. While my wake probably would not sink you, it would probably make you uncomfortable. Lee |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote:
the rules of the road inland or at sea say the un powered less maneuverable vessel has the right of way and the real watch out is on the overtaking vessel. "The Nav Rules are written with the understanding that not all boats can maneuver with the same ease. Therefore, Rule 18 states that certain vessels must keep out of the way of other vessels due to their ability to maneuver. A power driven vessel underway must keep out of the way of the following: o A sailing vessel, under sail only, and vessels propelled by oars or paddles. (Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it is considered a power driven vessel). o A vessel engaged in fishing, whose fishing equipment restricts its maneuverability. This does not include a sport fisher or party boat and generally means a commercial fishing vessel. o A vessel with restricted maneuverability such as a dredge or tow boat, a boat engaged in work that restricts it to a certain area, or a vessel transferring supplies to another vessel. o A vessel not under command – broken down. Each of these vessels must keep out of the way of the next vessel in the hierarchy. For example, a sailboat must keep out of the way of a vessel engaged in fishing, which in turn must keep out of the way of a vessel with restricted maneuverability. And everyone must keep out of the way of a vessel not under command. " that being said unofficially tonnage rules. or you can decide to get mad and do something about the drunken assholes. this can range from getting a citizen group together or direct action. a granade or a can of white gas with a blasting cap floated in front of a cig boat. sure makes the scum of the water into so much scrap. A nice chain just under the water does a good job as well. I do love the sound of bubbas beer can breaking his tooth. mainly my advice is to get out of the cancer coast and move to a place with humans. here is a link to the inland rules of the road.http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm read it carefully and don't try to go head to head with a jet ski. however they have side numbers and you can report them and bring charges. PS. in case you didn't notice Lee is a Plexiotomy recipient. In South Florida is a bad idea to be a manatee. So much so that it may become a verb... Suzy wrote: ...so you won’t get manateed, I mean run over. Gus wrote: LOL at that. Oh, I missed that. Maybe it will become and entry in the next Webster’s Dictionary… Manatee (v): to live in South Florida and get run over by motorboats while kayaking, just like manatees. Shark (v): to live in South Florida and own a big superfast motorboat while intimidating others. *** Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia? |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana
wrote: On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote: the rules of the road inland or at sea say the un powered less maneuverable vessel has the right of way and the real watch out is on the overtaking vessel. "The Nav Rules are written with the understanding that not all boats can maneuver with the same ease. Therefore, Rule 18 states that certain vessels must keep out of the way of other vessels due to their ability to maneuver. A power driven vessel underway must keep out of the way of the following: o A sailing vessel, under sail only, and vessels propelled by oars or paddles. (Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it is considered a power driven vessel). o A vessel engaged in fishing, whose fishing equipment restricts its maneuverability. This does not include a sport fisher or party boat and generally means a commercial fishing vessel. o A vessel with restricted maneuverability such as a dredge or tow boat, a boat engaged in work that restricts it to a certain area, or a vessel transferring supplies to another vessel. o A vessel not under command – broken down. Each of these vessels must keep out of the way of the next vessel in the hierarchy. For example, a sailboat must keep out of the way of a vessel engaged in fishing, which in turn must keep out of the way of a vessel with restricted maneuverability. And everyone must keep out of the way of a vessel not under command. " that being said unofficially tonnage rules. or you can decide to get mad and do something about the drunken assholes. this can range from getting a citizen group together or direct action. a granade or a can of white gas with a blasting cap floated in front of a cig boat. sure makes the scum of the water into so much scrap. A nice chain just under the water does a good job as well. I do love the sound of bubbas beer can breaking his tooth. mainly my advice is to get out of the cancer coast and move to a place with humans. here is a link to the inland rules of the road.http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rotr_online.htm read it carefully and don't try to go head to head with a jet ski. however they have side numbers and you can report them and bring charges. PS. in case you didn't notice Lee is a Plexiotomy recipient. In South Florida is a bad idea to be a manatee. So much so that it may become a verb... Suzy wrote: ...so you won’t get manateed, I mean run over. Gus wrote: LOL at that. Oh, I missed that. Maybe it will become and entry in the next Webster’s Dictionary… Manatee (v): to live in South Florida and get run over by motorboats while kayaking, just like manatees. Shark (v): to live in South Florida and own a big superfast motorboat while intimidating others. *** Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia? any place where you get actual sailors. I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any rules. In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters). Take your pick go north or south east or west from the cancer coast and you soon get a higher proportion of humans to Bubbas. |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 14, 8:39*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before. If you believe that, then quit your complaining. *You chose to be low on the food chain. *They chose not to be. *They benefit and suffer for their choices. *You benefit and suffer for yours. *If you don't like it, change your choice. Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't like it, grow up!" Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid, suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun... Imagine a world where nations invade nations, your sister is raped and your kids get bullied at school. Well, much of it is already happening, and it comes right from the top... (just from today's news) http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=222358 Not even bikes are as insignificant as kayaks to be ignored by the law. And not that it makes a big difference, but, oh well, that's another subject. ;) |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message
... On Aug 14, 8:39 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote: The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before. If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on the food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change your choice. Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't like it, grow up!" Not defending it. Just recognizing it. Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid, suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun... Your choice. Take the good with the bad. For what it's worth, I have a Kayak too and, for that matter, rode my bicycle about 10 miles today. Lee |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 15, 6:36*pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
"ComandanteBanana" wrote in message ... On Aug 14, 8:39 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote: The only de facto law is law of the jungle, as I said before. If you believe that, then quit your complaining. You chose to be low on the food chain. They chose not to be. They benefit and suffer for their choices. You benefit and suffer for yours. If you don't like it, change your choice. Pretty lousy defense of the law of the jungle you make. "If you don't like it, grow up!" Not defending it. *Just recognizing it. Now, suppose I don't want a motorboat because I find it stupid, suppose that I don't want to pollute, that I like to have fun... Your choice. *Take the good with the bad. For what it's worth, I have a Kayak too and, for that matter, rode my bicycle about 10 miles today. Lee TO RECOGNIZE WE HAVE A PROBLEM IS HALF THE PROBLEM. DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT IS THE OTHER HALF. Hey, we all trying to survive in the jungle, but DOES IT HAVE TO BE THAT WAY? Are the predators going to laugh their way into extinction? |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
In article ,
Lee Bell wrote: ComandanteBanana wrote Well, I'm not going to speak in defense of the sardine in their eternal quest to survive the big fish... Glad to hear it since you do not appear to be competent to defend your position on the issues you did address. The issue here is, WHY A KAYAK OR CANOE MUST GIVE THE RIGHT OF WAY TO THE MOTORBOATS? Here is is in a nutshell. It's called "The Rule of Tonage." I outweigh you by . . . well, by a lot of times. In an encounter between my boat and yours, yours, and you, will be crushed. If you aren't, you'll be turned into hamburger, or fish chum if you prefer, by the propellers on the back, that are turned, slow or fast, by more than 300 horsepower each. It's call survival. Ignoring it is commonly referred to as testing Darwin's theory. They have awards, issued poshumously, for thost that do. Other than that, here's another anwer. You don't have to give right of way. Generally speaking, non powered vessels, operated with a bit of common sense, have the right of way over powered ones. With modifications. If you are in a defined VTC area the vessels in the "motorway" have right of way to anything crossing. These are clearly marked on any chart. Dates from the Copenhagen protocol of 1859, with later extensions. Flag states have authority over the VTC, even in international waters. (Was never ratified by the confederate states, though). The VTC operator is king. Listen to VHF on the VTC channels to get updates. Ferries and other officially scheduled traffic comes next. Then there are three conflicting sets of rules. 1) The "seamanship" rules. * Everyone yield for special signs, like dive flag, trawler, etc. * Planes under landing and takeoff have next right of way. * Overtaking boat yields for the overtaken. * Propelled (including rowboats) yield for sailboats and planes. * Planes yield for sail (until Jun 1st 2006 this was the other way around) * Engine yield for non-engine * Sailboats with the wind from port yield for other sailboats with the wind from Starboard. * Sailboats yield for other sailboats with a higher angle into the wind. 2) The "useful" rules. * Boats carrying payload have first rights. * More payload = more right of way * You shall not disturb a vessel that cannot manouver as well as you can. 3) Biggest carries the day. * I am bigger than you are. Interesting point is that you must yield for planes, even if they are overtaking. With sea planes it can be hard to distinguish the transition from plane to vessel some times. As of June 1st 2006, military or SAR vessels with blinking blue lights have first priority over all. Every weekend the intracostal waterway of Miami becomes a parade of motorboats of all sorts, from the very big (the owners of this town) to the very small (the noisy jet skis), often driven by intoxicated drivers (I guess you call them "drivers," though seldom they are accountable to the standards as vehicle drivers, like DUI), and almost always running (or should I say "flying"?) up and down (again, with no speed limit restrictions like regular drivers). So the task of crossing these sea highways by paddle becomes something like a duck crossing the hunting grounds, and you are the sitting duck... But, if convicted of wrongdoing they can have the book thrown at them. DUI, reckless driving, endangering ship traffic, violations of a score of SOLAS regulations etc. We have a couple of cases each year where skippers end up with a year or more of hard time. They're called Captains or pilots, not drivers. If they intoxicated, report them. There are, in fact, laws controlling that very much like those for automobile driers. There are speed limits posted all over the place and quite a few that apply even when not posted. On top of it all, there are maximum wake and other requirements you've not bothered to notice. Crossing the channel, whether by paddle or by motorboat, is a lot like crossing any other highway. You would be ill advised to pull out right in front of a boat operated by a captain with more knowledge and experience than your appear to have, operating at a legal speed, not intoxicated, just like you would be ill advised to push your skateboard out in front of traffic traveling at the speed limit on I-95. You're the one entering the channel. You're the one responsible for doing it safely. Imagine that. Big difference between VTC and non-VTC areas. VTC is more like a runway for planes. You really _should_ listen to the traffic controller, even in a canoe. Especially in a canoe. We have done many dives in VTC areas; they are usually very cooperative, and we have to follow a given timeslot, and report in as all other VTC parties do. But the ocean is also hunting ground. The other day (it was weekday, hardly any boats out there), I went to out in my tandem kayak, which I chose as bright as it could be (sunrise) with the paddles to match (they could be more visible than the kayak itself), and out of nowhere came this boat that passed us right in front, so much so that my partner stopped paddling. The ocean was absolutely flat and it was a nice sunny day, so the driver must have chosen to make it a close call... You don't know that at all. There are rules for who has the right of way on the ocean as well. Have you bothered to research them? While it is possible that the boater chose to make it a close call, that's not certain at all, particularly if he did not change course. For all you know, he would have been on autopilot or, possibly, following a GPS course from one point to the next. Your assumption that he chose to bother you is a bit off the mark. I can confirm than going off autopilot is a definate hassle. If he was following a marked sea lane he would probably think of you as a nuisance; and have the law on his side. I will grant you that it would have been nice for him to give you a bit more room. I make a habit of doing that for vessels small enough that going behind them, through their wake, is not a problem while forcing them to go through mine might be. On the other hand, if you were paddling into his path, you also had the option to give yourself more room. Also, signal your intensions by making course adjustments if you have to, and do it early. BTW, the really large vessels run anti-collision systems, and have to log collision alarms. If they behave like a**h*les you can buzz them a little by triggering those alarms. You can do so at a safe distance, you just need to set a colliding course, and stay there for a minute or two. The radar and anti-collision systems will pick you up. -- mrr |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
In article ,
Two meter troll wrote: On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana wrote: On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote: Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia? any place where you get actual sailors. I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any rules. In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters). In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ; "bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1] This territory is sharply defined as the coastal waters from Mandal (just west of Kristiansand) to just south of Smogen. These are a sheltered morass of crisscrossing small fjords, and except for finding the shallows and rocks (with the boaters are very good at), there is no real challenge in navigating. West and north of this area there is a whole different culture. Same for Denmark. There is far between ports, you need to handle the weather. The larger fjords make excellent wind and wave tunnels; you can have a storm at the center, and total calm on land. You have to handle stretches where navigation can be an issue; e.g. finding the little ports in between all the rocks. I put the good seamanship in most of Sweden up to the fact that it is the most well organised place on the planet. Take your pick go north or south east or west from the cancer coast and you soon get a higher proportion of humans to Bubbas. -- mrr [1] But the story of the motor torpedo boat that ran aground and killed a cow is true. It actually happened twice, in 1954 and again in the 1970s. The first cow was almost cut in half, the second one died of a heart attack. The Navy has "improved the charts" a lot by finding shallows and rocks noone has know about. They are very good at finding them at 40 knots as well. |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 19, 3:25*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
1) The *"seamanship" rules. * ** Everyone yield for special signs, like dive flag, trawler, etc. I do have a dive flag that use when snorkeling, but just got a "protest" red flag, which I learned later was for sailboat races... Anyway I intend to fly it for two purposes: 1. to be seen, and 2. to protest against the Law of the Jungle, currently in practice everywhere in the seas. The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT? I'm afraid the laws are made to fit the big ones, of course... HOW THE LAW WORKS... FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE LION One day the King of the Jungle, tired of being called AUTHORITARIAN, gathered the most cunning animals in the kingdom, chief among them the Foxes, and told them: "It's mighty unjust that I am not recognized for what I am. You know full well that the best of my SCRAPS, after you, go to the Little Animals... Well, I want you to write LAWS, so from now on it'll be them, and not me, who would rule over this God chosen kingdom..." After a few months of hard deliberations (and a few "private parties" and "business trips") the Foxes (now turned politicians) returned with a long, long book of laws written in a language so hard to understand to the Little Animals that they thought it was old Greek. After translation, it started like this: "The animals with a mane will be treated like kings; the animals with paws and teeth will be above the Laws; and the animals who will represent the interests of the Little Animals, us, will be granted a raise in benefits and status... Of course, ALL FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION will be considered ILLEGAL, and will result in the Lion eating the Little Animal..." (Moral: The trick is in the law.) |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote:
The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT? Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer. Steve |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 21, 11:18 am, "
wrote: On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote: The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT? Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer. Steve You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle. I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our troops." |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article , Two meter troll wrote: On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana wrote: On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote: Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia? any place where you get actual sailors. I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters). In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ; "bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1] When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted, but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows. I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers and other civilized people. |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
In article
, KingOfTheApes wrote: On Aug 21, 11:18 am, " wrote: On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote: The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT? Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer. Steve You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle. I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our troops." At least they don't whine at extended, exhaustive length, looking for someone else to blame. |
fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs
On Aug 21, 2:10*pm, Steve Hix
wrote: In article , *KingOfTheApes wrote: On Aug 21, 11:18 am, " wrote: On Aug 20, 1:36 pm, KingOfTheApes wrote: The question is, WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT? Don't know, but we're all going to chip in and buy him a beer. Steve You must one of those who celebrate the Law of the Jungle. I bet you got one of those bumper stickers that say, "We support our troops." At least they don't whine at extended, exhaustive length, looking for someone else to blame. They do blame somebody else: Hussein, WMDs, terrorists... But I'm talking about the safety of those very activities (green, healthy) that should be promoted, not be left to the Law of the Jungle. Hey, fast motorboats sound to me like WMDs. ;) |
how best to survive out there
(This is a contribution by the very same person who sold me the last
kayak. Reporting from the watery jungle) Flex 029 wrote: hi folks, first time here .. met Sr. Commandate Banana at my shop .. one way of dealing with this problem is to NOT paddle in these areas on weekends. when i go on any given week-DAY, there’s usually nobody around - EXCEPT for all that damn trash~ Howdy Flex, good to see you here so we can discuss how best to survive out there. I totally agree with you, and in fact I stay away from the waterways on weekends. The weekends belong to the predators, so to speak. I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes, including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe with proper lights for night time.) As you know, the beautiful kayak I’ve got from you is as bright as sunrise (that’s the color), as well as the lights and flag I’m getting from you. So if the superfast, superbig boats don’t see me is because their drivers (I deny them “captain” status) are superdrunk and superhigh. Hey, we’ve developed the same strategy for survival! Actually it was developed by the early mammals at the time the dinosaurs ruled the earth. That’s kind of metaphorical, isn’t it? |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
wpns4l wrote:
"this thread is crazy lol. stories of lions and the jungle. do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/ coast guard." Hey, you seem to be ready for “the jungle” in that picture. Either you have big guns… or have a banana to go in there (I have to tell the metaphorical meaning of it). Anyway, I do carry a cell phone, and I assume they don’t see me. But I’m not sure that’s good or bad because then I get all stressed out over the damn boats, and it defeats the purpose of the kayak, which is to relax. In other words, I ignore them. So, I go back to one of the favorite slogans of the revolution, “Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” |
how best to survive out there
I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes
for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes, including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe with proper lights for night time.) In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping their mattresses in the water either. Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care about boats in it. Lee |
how best to survive out there
In rec.boats.paddle Lee Bell wrote:
I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes, including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe with proper lights for night time.) In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping their mattresses in the water either. Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care about boats in it. We have a canal here called the I&M canal. Around 1996 a dam rupture caused the canal to drain exposing all sorts of stuff. We were on the bike trail the following weekend and were looking at all the recliners, washing machines and stuff in the canal. The canal is only open to canoes and kayaks and I don't think many canoeists or kayakers were taking washing machines or recliners in their boats... course, I could be wrong... Most of the larger garbage was concentrated near bridges... -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 22, 12:37 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
I also canoe at night (which you told me you do too), which not makes for far fewer motorboats, but also hides the mountains of trash (yes, including batteries and mattresses) left behind by the said motorboats. (I have a bright kayak for daylight, and camouflage canoe with proper lights for night time.) In all my years of boating and kayaking, I've never, ever seen a battery floating by. As far as I know, boaters aren't really well known for dumping their mattresses in the water either. Well, there are islands on the water and the batteries are left behind on the islands. It would be mighty difficult to leave piles of garbage on the water, even if they tried. Perhaps you'd like to explain why you crossposted your complaints about boaters in the Intracoastal to rec.scuba and a UK group, all of whom are extremely unlikely to even know what the Intracoastal is, let alone care about boats in it. Lee Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that anchor in the wrong places. By the way, do you have many coral reefs in the UK? |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 22, 4:08 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote Well, there are islands on the water and the batteries are left behind on the islands. I suppose it's happened, but it darned sure doesn't happen often. Boats big enough to carry batteries, don't work without them. They have to have them to start the motors. It's really unlikely that anybody would go to all the trouble to drive their boat out to an island with a spare battery on board, change the battery while on the island and go to all the touble to take the battery off the boat just so they can leave it someplace where it will later have to be collected by another power boater. It could happne, but I don't know why. Batteries may get damaged by sea water or just get depleted. I have one on my canoe to power my trolling motor. I changed to AGM though because they are water and leakproof. It's much more likely that any batteries you round were taken to the island for use by somebody camping there. They may or may not have gotten to the island by power boat, but the batteries you see almost certainly weren't lift there because they are power boaters. Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO HAVE A DEGREE OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS. I, personally, would prefer that they stay home watching baseball and drinking beer. Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that anchor in the wrong places. In more than 45 years of diving, and boating in the Caribbean, no, I've never heard of it. I have heard of them dying because of fertilizer, sewerage and other chemicals washed our from those on land who have less consideration than either you or I do. I have heard of reefs destroyed by sewage outfalls operated by Miami Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties. I have heard of reefs destroyed by "accidental" leaks of millions of gallons of raw sewage from Miami Dade about twice a year. I have heard of reefs destroyed by those that dispose of thousands of tires as "artificial reefs" that nothing ever lives on. Here's a clue. Gas floats. Reefs don't. Anchors don't do much damage and their use is not limited to motor boats. Sailboats and even kayaks carry them too. Lee My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs. ;) How much you need for a motorboat? But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim in the intracostal anymore. Their main threat though is to life and property... "Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from the United States Coast Guard: In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414 registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004. The 4,969 boating accidents reported in 2005 resulted in 697 fatalities, 3,451 injuries, and $38,721,088 in property damage. Florida had 973,859 registered motorboats and 603 boating accidents in 2005. Approximately 70% of all fatal boating accident victims drowned. The most reported type of accident was a collision with another vessel. Overall, carelessness/reckless operation, operator inattention, excessive speed, and operator inexperience are the leading contributing factors of all reported accidents. The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin motorboats (14%). Increases were observed in the number of reported fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats, and houseboats from 2004. A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats from the number of fatalities reported in 2004." http://www.rueziffra.com/practiceAreas.php?id=14 |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/ coast guard." That's a really good idea. You'll make so many friends and gain so much respect that way. Be sure to curse and make obscene gestures as they go by too. You wouldn't want to miss out on any opportunity to make an impression. No, you have to nice to people, even the ones that threaten your life. It's the Christian thing to do. That's why I tell them, "Hey, don't eat me, you can eat my banana!" ;) This is all a great way to ensure that, when others don't have a legal obligation to consider your needs. they are considerate anyway and even to be really sure that, should you ever actually need somebody with a powered boat to assist you that they'll do so without hesitation. Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo helped us recover a sunken kayak. It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice. Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed, limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area, safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water. They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows. Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck. In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps. ;) C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1 mile from shore? You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it? I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator. One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do so. The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and hopefully they'll steer around you. You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power boats aren't. There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal light. ;) You just go for it and pray to come out alive. You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration from them, try giving it to them. I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we --kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it. Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was inconvenienced by you. Lee Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle. Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you can always choose the smaller motorboats out there. |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
KingOfTheApes wrote:
Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with very low incomes. With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the gas to be constantly running their boats? But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim in the intracostal anymore. You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries. Their main threat though is to life and property... "Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from the United States Coast Guard: In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414 registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004. The 4,969 boating accidents ... 0.04% incidence. Yes, very 'startling'. You would have to boat for over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk. The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin motorboats (14%). And 15% missing. FYI, this data is statistically meaningless without the context of the relevant contributing base population also being provided. Increases were observed in the number of reported fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats, and houseboats from 2004. With 160,938 more registered watercraft, is this really surprising that the observed total also increased? A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats... Was this because they as a group became safer, or because they as a group became fewer? You don't know because that can only be answered if the relevant contributing base population context was included ... which here it is not. As such, you have "true statements" being made that are functionally meaningless because they fail to determine causality. -hh |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote: On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote: In article , Two meter troll wrote: On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana wrote: On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote: Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia? any place where you get actual sailors. I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters). In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ; "bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1] When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted, but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows. Garbage TV is the same everywhere. I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in No, we don't have much of the industrial pollution. Rules for the oil industry are strict; and the plants tend to have localised pollution, and are put in some desolate place between steep mountains. The cruise ships don't go to those fjords. They even put back some water in the waterfalls for the tourists to watch. Normally any waterfall of any size would have been put in pipes to make hydropower. the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers and other civilized people. Nowadays, we MAKE a lot of those boats. And the Swedes make a lot of the engines. Also sold in America. The entrepreneurs among us saw Miami Vice, and thought "I can make those cheaper and better". -- mrr |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote: On Aug 22, 12:37 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote: Well, maybe they heard of the coral reefs in the tropical waters of the Caribbean dying because of all the pollution and motorboats that anchor in the wrong places. By the way, do you have many coral reefs in the UK? We are only discovering the northern reefs this decade. They are deep, 50-400 m; and have not been known except as good fishing places. The shallowest is in the Trondheim fjord right by the gusing currents at 40 meters plus. Now the offshore waters are being properly charted, and there are weekly discoveries of new reefs offshore. Fishing regulations will have to be radically rewritten. Lots of the reefs have substrantial trawler damage. Putting in an oil platform makes minuscule damage in comparison. After all, the only have a 100x100m footprint, and want that on solid rock or deep shellsand. We expect new, detailed charts over all the continental shelf to be issued sometime in 2010. -- mrr |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
In article ,
-hh wrote: KingOfTheApes wrote: Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with very low incomes. With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the gas to be constantly running their boats? The "salarimen" have taken to motorboating, with cabin cruisers. They have the cash, but less time to learn to operate the craft. Most marinas are built for boats up to 39'/12m length, 11'6"/3.5m wide. The new cigar boats and cabin cruisers are too big for them, so they are often forced to anchoring. But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim in the intracostal anymore. You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries. There is remarkably little pollution from watercraft of any type around here. Their main threat though is to life and property... "Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from the United States Coast Guard: In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414 registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004. The 4,969 boating accidents ... 0.04% incidence. Yes, very 'startling'. You would have to boat for over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk. There are some "peak" risk groups. The insurance for a cigar boat without a proper skipper exam and practice is now about $100 per horsepower per year. With proper traning documented you can almost cut a digit from those prices. Some insurance agencies refuse to insure 100 hp, 12 tons or 13 m/42' without skipper certifications. The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (45%), personal watercraft (PWC) (26%), and cabin motorboats (14%). And 15% missing. FYI, this data is statistically meaningless without the context of the relevant contributing base population also being provided. Increases were observed in the number of reported fatalities involving PWC, cabin motorboats, inflatables, sailboats, and houseboats from 2004. With 160,938 more registered watercraft, is this really surprising that the observed total also increased? A decrease was observed in the number of fatalities involving canoes/kayaks and rowboats... Was this because they as a group became safer, or because they as a group became fewer? You don't know because that can only be answered if the relevant contributing base population context was included ... which here it is not. As such, you have "true statements" being made that are functionally meaningless because they fail to determine causality. Indeed. Authorities here are reviewing ideas of zone separation for different craft. 5kn speed limits proposed for motorboats outside zones, and licensing for larger crafts with a point system for revoking the licence. -- mrr |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
In article ,
KingOfTheApes wrote: On Aug 22, 3:58 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote: do yourself a favor and carry a hand held uhf radio or something and if you see people, motorboat or not, acting like asses call the police/ coast guard." Why not have a VHF? You can listen in to the VTC, and be told about the big boats arriving in good time. I have a lot of use for that when sailing inside VTC zones. Some of them are real nice, real captains. Once one in Key Largo helped us recover a sunken kayak. It's like there's decent people driving SUVs, just that many of them are reckless and they have made the wrong vehicle choice. Here are a couple of clues. Power boaters have been picked on, harassed, limited, and taxed almost out of their activities. It takes hours for them to get where their fishing, diving, or other activities take place because they have to travel at idle speed to keep manatees never seen in the area, safe just in case they every happen to be there. They pay substantially more for the fuel that the use simply because they use it on the water. They bought their very expensive boats either because that's what they enjoy, because that's what it takes to do what they bought a boat for, or because they don't have the time to use slower, more economical vessels. No matter what the reason, they have a right and a right to expect to be able to use them to their maximum potential when and where the law allows. The law abiding skippers sometimes have a pretty hard time with all the other craft. Just listen to the commercial fishing skippers. Sometimes that law doesn't exist or is not enforced and they just follow the Law of the Jungle. If you talk about the channels their speeds are not terribly willd, but still you are a sitting duck. In certain spots of the intracostal and the beach, though, they just fly over the water with their cigarette boats. It's common sight there that they just fly by past the buoys, a few hundred feet from the beach. If you go there to relax, their roaring motors will remind you there's no place to hide. Well, try ear plugs perhaps. ;) C'mon, there's no control to this? Can't we have them stay at least 1 mile from shore? Zoning? You guys, and I, for that matter, have chosen a slower, more sedate and less expensive mode of transportation for very different reasons. We don't us kayaks to do the things others do in power, or sail boats. We can get closer to nature, into places that power boats can and should not go, and generally relax in ways unique to us. Why not do that in places best suited to what we enjoy? Why encroach on the few places left that power boaters can use their transportation the way the want and bitch about them doing it? I've said the weekends belong to the predators. I even grant them the daylight because I don't want to see their garbage. But going past the buoys at the beach is reasonable, since staying within them would make me a danger to the swimmers, and I don't want to become the predator. With sailboats, we can escape to the ocean. Very few bubbas and incompetent motorboat skippers there. One more thing to keep in mind. It costs you nothing to wait a minute for a power boat to pass. It probably costs a boat 25 feet or more in length, and certainly the high speed monohulls you guys were complaining about, anywhere from $10 to $20 extra to slow down and return to a plane. Perhaps that will give you at least a little understanding of why they are so reluctant to do so. The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and hopefully they'll steer around you. A word from some commercial captains I know. Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want to be in front of them. They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes. I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas. If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially in a kayak. You want to cross the channel, no problem. Find someplace where speed is limited and go for it. God knows such places are all over the Intracoastal You want to share areas where boats go faster, great, do it out of the channels, in shallower water where your vessel is designed to go and power boats aren't. There's no safe intersections in those channels, much less a signal light. ;) Nope. But when you cross, do so in a way predictable to the large vessels. They also need 5-7 knots of speed to be able to manouver properly. With less than 3 knots they are dead in the water and need thrusters and/or tugs to operate. You really DON'T want them to have to press the brake for you. You just go for it and pray to come out alive. You want consideration, so do the power boaters. You want consideration from them, try giving it to them. I do. The problem is NOT them actually. But the whole set up where we --kayakers and canoeists-- are exposed to uncessary dangers, and where they can speed, drink, get high, be reckless, and get away with it. A few inquests has done away with that here. Suddenly the promising salarymen were cons with drug&alcohol and violence crimes on their records. Not what you would like on your CV. Several of these inquests had other, experienced boaters who kept their calm as witnesses. Now, before you guys get all excited and tell everybody about the occasionally jerk, ask yourself this. For every time a power boater inconvenienced you, how many times do you suppose the power boater was inconvenienced by you. Lee Some steering from them to avoid you is NOT an inconvenience. The ocean is full of different species, and we all must get along, or declare that the only law out there is the Law of the Jungle. Hey, people who got "money to burn" can try sailing, that is more rewarding and totally environmentally friendly. Motorboats which are needed for fishing are OK too since they serve a purpose. And then you can always choose the smaller motorboats out there. Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs. And I have a 22 year old 36' boat. -- mrr |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
Morten Reistad wrote:
Money to burn, indeed. I could buy a complete set of diving gear for what a new Genua costs. And I have a 22 year old 36' boat. That might depend on what calls a 'complete' set. As in everything else, there's the bare-bones basics and then there's the more serious stuff, particularly when it comes to specialized ares. For example, the Ikelite SS-200 strobe heads I have for my old 35mm underwater camera cost me $1K each...and they aren't compatible with going digital. Another high ticket item is a quality drysuit for use in colder climates. Figure spending $2K for that with one basic set of underwear. Its all too easy to have the same stereotype of 'bubba diver' recreationalist as it is for power boating in a 17ft fiberglass runabout with too much horsepower & beer. -hh |
Why the Law of the Sea has to be the Law of the Jungle?
On Aug 24, 6:28*am, Morten Reistad wrote:
In article , KingOfTheApes wrote: On Aug 19, 3:43*pm, Morten Reistad wrote: In article , Two meter troll wrote: On Aug 15, 7:21 am, ComandanteBanana wrote: On Aug 15, 3:20 am, Two meter troll wrote: Hey, where's the real place with humans, Alaska, Scandinavia? any place where you get actual sailors. I worked the gulf for a while and was on the whole unimpressed. what i observed was a total lack of licensing, no familiarity with either inland or international rules of the road, skill levels in boat handling and navigations somewhere around those of a brain damaged squid, drunkenness at the helm, no enforcement at all, trash all over the place, a disregard for every one else on or in the water, and an over whelming attitude that folks don't actually have to follow any rules. * In short; Bubbas (I cant actually think of anything that acts as slovenly and boorish as the majority of southern boaters). In Scandinavia the greater Oslo Fjord area is like this. Sheltered waters, lots of yuppies with daddys gofast-boat; as you call them ; "bubbas" with cabin cruisers, and rich drunkards with cigar boats. The first day of main holiday you can barely get through on the VHF ch 16 because of all the disaster messages. Fortunatly, the vast majority of damage is self-inflicted. [1] When I was in Norway in 2000 everything looked good and unpolluted, but I noticed you were being fed too many American TV shows. Garbage TV is the same everywhere. Yep, but it always comes from the same place. ;) I guess what happened is that some people bought into the "American dream" (those who could afford it anyway), and started doing like in No, we don't have much of the industrial pollution. Rules for the oil industry are strict; and the plants tend to have localised pollution, and are put in some desolate place between steep mountains. The cruise ships don't go to those fjords. They even put back some water in the waterfalls for the tourists to watch. Normally any waterfall of any size would have been put in pipes to make hydropower. Wherever you go in Norway, you don't see piles of garbage, not even a piece of paper on the ground. I wonder if our politicians could ever go there and bring back some ideas. the series "Miami Vice." But I assure you, that those cigarette boats do pollute, and leave a trail of garbage while terrorizing kayakers and other civilized people. Nowadays, we MAKE a lot of those boats. And the Swedes make a lot of the engines. Also sold in America. The entrepreneurs among us saw Miami Vice, and thought "I can make those cheaper and better". -- mrr- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well, it's like Volvo. They also got into the SUV craze... Not as stupid as our Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles but still unnecessary. Good old fashioned station wagons are still the best. |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 23, 4:39*pm, -hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote: Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with very low incomes. *With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the gas to be constantly running their boats? First of all, there are "lions" out there and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds owned by the ones that want to imitate the others. The former you see either cruising slowly on their yachts or racing by on their fast boats. The latter are the ones that bring their extended family to the islands out there and leave all the garbage behind. In other words, motorboating has become democratic and even the dog participates in the affair. Actually, there are ads on TV that promote motorboating as a fun thing for the whole family --and the dog. It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars. "Money to burn"=Big Yacht & SUV. "Survivor"=old car and boat. But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim in the intracostal anymore. You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries. I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see it floating all over the place. And when a motorboats goes by, you can get some serious second hand smoke. Their main threat though is to life and property... "Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from the United States Coast Guard: In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414 registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004. The 4,969 boating accidents ... 0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *You would have to boat for over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk. I bet many of those registered boats don't even make it to the water (they look good parked on the driveway). And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat highways, so the statistics may be misleading. But your common sense tells you they are a real threat. More than terrorists, say. ;) |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 23, 5:57 pm, "Lee Bell" wrote:
Batteries may get damaged by sea water or just get depleted. I have one on my canoe to power my trolling motor. I changed to AGM though because they are water and leakproof. Batteries in boats are generally protected against sea water or of a type that is not easily damaged, like the AGM battery you use. As it happens I use them too. As for getting depleted, that's what chargers are for. By the way, your battery is much more likely to become depeleted than mine. Perhaps it Kayakers that are leaving them. You do know that, by putting a trolling motor on your kayak, you're classified as a power boat, right? Oh, give me a break. At worst I'd be a hybrid. Small, slow, noiseless and backed up by paddles. And still I've got the kayak that goes on banana power alone (meaning I eat the bananas that power the boat). ;) Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions. I think MOTORBOATING IS LARGELY FOR COUCH POTATOES THAT WANT TO HAVE A DEGREE OF ADVENTURE IN THE GREAT OUTDOORS. Yet, in the same post, you identified yourself as a power boater. But not a threat to anything. Certainly not a couch potato looking for adventure. My anchor weighs 1 1/2 lbs... Terrible threat to the reefs. ;) It's almost exactly the same threat as mine. An anchor that sets and stays in place, does very little damage to anything and there's already a law requiring people to anchor in adjacent sand areas rather than on coral. Chain and line, on the other hand, can do quite a bit of damage, whether attached to a kayak or different kind of power boat. I'd look before I anchor to a reef, don't you? How much you need for a motorboat? Which power boat? I have three and, as I've already mentioned, a kayak. Anchors for each boat is designed for the boat I use it with. My smallest power boat uses an anchor just like the one I use for the kayak. OK, why don't you get rid of the big ones? But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim in the intracostal anymore. What you can smell is not harming the reefs. As for what you doubt, I suggest you learn a bit more before getting it wrong again. If you're talking about human waste by those on boats, I'm afraid you'll have to include kayakers in your list. It's legal for either of us to use the ocean as a bathroom. It is not legal for me to discharge my head directly overboard or to discharge my holding tank within coastal waters. The sewage outfalls in Dade, Broward and Palm Beach Counties, on the other hand, pump millions of gallons of partially treated sewage and chemicals onto the reefs every day. Can the government ever be that bad? They claim they treat everything at Virginia Key... The most common types of boats involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (45%) . . . You know that includes your kayak, right? I've been boating in south Florida for 54 years. I've never had an accident. Imagine that. Lee Do you do kayaking by any chance, or you just represent the motorboating association? |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Aug 24, 7:07*am, Morten Reistad wrote:
The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and hopefully they'll steer around you. A word from some commercial captains I know. Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want to be in front of them. They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zones please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lanes as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes. I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas. If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially in a kayak. Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES NOT." And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if not they are fair game. Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;) |
WHO'S LIABLE IF I DO GET HIT?
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
wrote: On Aug 24, 7:07=A0am, Morten Reistad wrote: The thing with a motorboat is that you don't know if stopping puts you at lesser or greater danger. You just have to predictable, and hopefully they'll steer around you. A word from some commercial captains I know. Pleasure boaters are normally not aware of the traffic control and zone separation in place; and even some quite experiencd amateur skippers are clueless about how a large, commercial vessel stops. Hint: You don't want to be in front of them. They try to manouver as well as they can; but they really need the zone space they are given in and out of ports. If you cross the separation zon= es please do so at a fixed course and speed at as sharp an angle to the lane= s as you can. The large ships have automatic anti-collision trackers that are _extremely_ useful in such waters, but they tend to give lots of false alarms on small craft that zigzag in and out of lanes. I just cheched the Miami area on commercial charts. It is chock full of separation sones and report requirements almost halfway to Bahamas. If you are unaware of these zones you will make a lot of commercial ships hate you intensely when you are there, even in a Kayak. Especially in a kayak. Basically there are two kinds of zones he "THE HAVES" & "THE HAVES NOT." And the kayakers must stay in the area of the haves not, because if not they are fair game. Otherwise, go out when the haves are working or sleeping. ;) Damn, what an ass, you must be French |
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