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Muzz
 
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I took the GPS out today to check my speed. Worked out at 4kmh into the wind
and 6kmh with. My pal with the P&H Quest says this sounds about right but I
fear he's being kind so I don't chicken out going on a trip with him. I did
manage an 8kmh sprint, a very short sprint.

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Muzz
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Peter Clinch
 
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Muzz wrote:
I took the GPS out today to check my speed. Worked out at 4kmh into the wind
and 6kmh with. My pal with the P&H Quest says this sounds about right but I
fear he's being kind so I don't chicken out going on a trip with him. I did
manage an 8kmh sprint, a very short sprint.


Speed will largely depend on the hull speed of the boat, which as a
rule of thumb goes up with waterline length and up with reduced
width. So a long, narrow boat is fastest (but a long fat boat
would probably do better than a short, narrow one).

In a sea kayak you'd typically expect ~3-4 knots depending on the
boat, paddler and conditions. A knot is just under 2 km/h (you can
set most GPS units to display marine units if you want). Exceeding
the basic hull speed of a boat is possible but puts you into the
realm of a very steep curve of diminishing returns.

Speed is only usually much of an issue touring if you have to go
into strong tide or wind. If you're against a 3 knot tide and are
only managing 3 knots, that gives you an effective speed of zero,
but still using lots of energy!

It's often the case that a tour can take its time. Wait a few
hours and that 3 knot tide will be with you rather than against
you, and if you've got all day you might as well use it. If you're
not racing there needn't be a hurry.

On a sea tour, the ability to paddle efficiently though not
especially fast for hours at a time will generally be more useful
than outright sprint speed. An ability to turn on the power for
short spells can certainly be useful, but a relaxed forward stroke
you can keep up is what will get you most of your miles.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Allan Bennett
 
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In article , Peter Clinch
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Muzz wrote:
I took the GPS out today to check my speed. Worked out at 4kmh into the wind
and 6kmh with. My pal with the P&H Quest says this sounds about right but I
fear he's being kind so I don't chicken out going on a trip with him. I did
manage an 8kmh sprint, a very short sprint.


Speed will largely depend on the hull speed of the boat, which as a
rule of thumb goes up with waterline length and up with reduced
width. So a long, narrow boat is fastest (but a long fat boat
would probably do better than a short, narrow one).

Ah, yes, that old chestnut.

I think you will find that longer boats /can/ go faster (ie have a higher top
speed), but only if more work is done to achieve it.

Most fast and semi-fast kayak hulls are semi-displacement and are not totally
bound by the waterline length restrictions. In fact, modern racing boats
(and therefore some progressibe sea kayak designs) have a /reduced/ waterline
length at racing speeds, achieved by means of rocker.

In a sea kayak you'd typically expect ~3-4 knots depending on the
boat, paddler and conditions. A knot is just under 2 km/h (you can
set most GPS units to display marine units if you want). Exceeding
the basic hull speed of a boat is possible but puts you into the
realm of a very steep curve of diminishing returns.

Speed is only usually much of an issue touring if you have to go
into strong tide or wind. If you're against a 3 knot tide and are
only managing 3 knots, that gives you an effective speed of zero,
but still using lots of energy!

It's often the case that a tour can take its time. Wait a few
hours and that 3 knot tide will be with you rather than against
you, and if you've got all day you might as well use it. If you're
not racing there needn't be a hurry.

On a sea tour, the ability to paddle efficiently though not
especially fast for hours at a time will generally be more useful
than outright sprint speed. An ability to turn on the power for
short spells can certainly be useful, but a relaxed forward stroke
you can keep up is what will get you most of your miles.


Absolutely - and the most neglected or least understood part of coaching,
IME.


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of slow-coaches

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Ewan Scott
 
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On a sea tour, the ability to paddle efficiently though not
especially fast for hours at a time will generally be more useful
than outright sprint speed. An ability to turn on the power for
short spells can certainly be useful, but a relaxed forward stroke
you can keep up is what will get you most of your miles.


Absolutely - and the most neglected or least understood part of coaching,
IME.

Unless taking part in a race of some form speed is, or surely should be a
lesser priority than the ability to paddle steadily over an extended period.
That would apply to any non-competitive paddling, which despite the best
wishes of some in the sport, is the majority of us.

I started out coaching Placid Water, where the emphasis was on racing. I now
do CCK WW and I cannot think of any time where we have really put an
emphasis on speed. I know some coaches like to see everything done at top
speed in the belief that it emphasises moves such as Draw on the Move, but I
have noticed that if the paddler works at the pace he/she is comfortable
with they will actually perform a better stroke which then allows them to
build confidence. In most cases speed is only needed in short bursts IMHO.
It can be disadvantageous to the new paddler to emphasise speed.

Ewan Scott


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Peter Clinch
 
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Ewan Scott wrote:

Unless taking part in a race of some form speed is, or surely should be a
lesser priority than the ability to paddle steadily over an extended period.
That would apply to any non-competitive paddling, which despite the best
wishes of some in the sport, is the majority of us.


Surfing doesn't really fit, with high power to bash out, waiting around
past the breakline for something interesting, and then accelerating for
all you're worth before moving to rudders. I've never played polo
"properly", but I wouldn't have thought it a steady paddling operation
for the most part.

In most cases speed is only needed in short bursts IMHO.


For sea work I'd agree. One aspect is that a multi-mile relaxed forward
and a sprint forward use quite different techniques (or at least I do...
more vertical paddle shaft with longer strokes for quick sprints).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/



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Hi Muzz.
Those numbers are about right. Paddling with friends just youring I
plod along at 2.5 to 3 knots. When you light it up 4 + Knots would not
be out of line for a spring. Then there are things that twist that
curve all to hell.
Last year I met a croud of friends that had made a trip to Newfoundland
just to paddle. We went from Garden Cove to Woody Island in about 4
hours. We stopped and just poked all the way up there 13 KM + - .
I ate lunch at Island Rendezvous Resort and the wind had come up. The
bay was full of white caps.
It was 3:02 PM when I left.
I paddled back alone surfing all the way. I Stoped to talk to friends
aboard a ( the ) tour boat that was headed out for five minutes and
continued.
At 4:10 PM my boat was on the car and I was getting out of my wet suit.
About 13 KM per hour sustained over 13 KM all due to waves and wind. I
surfed most of the way.
I suspect I hit 16 or 17 KM + on some of those waves but I don't own a
JPS. There was a short crossing where the wind was not entirely in my
favuor.
That was in an NDK Explorer. Reasonably nice touring / expedition boat.

Re Hull speed and the likes. Don't wory about that: If you can keep up
with your friends that is all the speed you need.

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