How do you roll up in very shallow water?
 

Hello,

I have been learning to surf. I find if I get turned over in fairly
shallow water I can't roll back upright. I can roll if the water is
deeper.

Any suggestions anybody?

Bernie

Speaking just for myself Bernie, I have found that just hanging around
until you have sorted yourself out does it. Generally you can just roll
up using the sand as if it were water. Sometimes you are lying on the
wrong side and then you just have to look like a tit and work it out. I
can roll both sides but if you start with your blades on the wrong side
you are stuffed IMHO and you just have to use your hands!
Of course if you bail out _before_ you get spanked it helps but if anyone
has a tip as to how to always do that I would be listening!

Cheers

David

In article . com,
(Bernie Inakayak) wrote:

*Subject:* How do you roll up in very shallow water?
*From:* "Bernie Inakayak"
*Date:* 29 Sep 2005 12:59:21 -0700

Hello,

I have been learning to surf. I find if I get turned over in fairly
shallow water I can't roll back upright. I can roll if the water is
deeper.

Any suggestions anybody?

Bernie

"David Bulpitt" wrote in message
o.uk...
Speaking just for myself Bernie, I have found that just hanging around
until you have sorted yourself out does it. Generally you can just roll
up using the sand as if it were water. Sometimes you are lying on the
wrong side and then you just have to look like a tit and work it out. I
can roll both sides but if you start with your blades on the wrong side
you are stuffed IMHO and you just have to use your hands!
Of course if you bail out _before_ you get spanked it helps but if anyone
has a tip as to how to always do that I would be listening!

Cheers

David

In article . com,
(Bernie Inakayak) wrote:

*Subject:* How do you roll up in very shallow water?
*From:* "Bernie Inakayak"
*Date:* 29 Sep 2005 12:59:21 -0700

Hello,

I have been learning to surf. I find if I get turned over in fairly
shallow water I can't roll back upright. I can roll if the water is
deeper.

Any suggestions anybody?

Bernie


A Punt off the bottom IMHO is perfectly acceptable. A roll is anything that
gets you back upright.

"googlebot" wrote in message
...

"David Bulpitt" wrote in message
o.uk...
Speaking just for myself Bernie, I have found that just hanging around
until you have sorted yourself out does it. Generally you can just roll
up using the sand as if it were water. Sometimes you are lying on the
wrong side and then you just have to look like a tit and work it out. I
can roll both sides but if you start with your blades on the wrong side
you are stuffed IMHO and you just have to use your hands!
Of course if you bail out _before_ you get spanked it helps but if
anyone
has a tip as to how to always do that I would be listening!

Cheers

David

In article . com,
(Bernie Inakayak) wrote:

*Subject:* How do you roll up in very shallow water?
*From:* "Bernie Inakayak"
*Date:* 29 Sep 2005 12:59:21 -0700

Hello,

I have been learning to surf. I find if I get turned over in fairly
shallow water I can't roll back upright. I can roll if the water is
deeper.

Any suggestions anybody?

Bernie


A Punt off the bottom IMHO is perfectly acceptable. A roll is anything
that
gets you back upright.

I'd agree. it's nice to be technically perfect and do it all "by the book",
but if punting off the borrom gets you upright then that's the way to do it.

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

I'd agree. it's nice to be technically perfect and do it all "by the book",
but if punting off the borrom gets you upright then that's the way to do it.

I call them "pole rolls". Work for me. And a pal doing her 5* training
uses them quite proficiently in shallow surf soup, they're not just for
beginners!

Not something I set out to do, but if while trying to sort myself out I
come across the bottom it's just something I do naturally.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

What is it about them that means they're not for beginners Peter?

Bernie (beginner, pretty much)

Bernie Inakayak wrote:
What is it about them that means they're not for beginners Peter?

I think you misread my post: "they're not just for beginners!"
^^^^
They are particularly "for" beginners to some degree because if you
spend any time teaching rolling you'll see quite a few of the early
attempts in a pool are characterised by poling off the bottom of the
pool despite an intention to be sweeping the blade around on the surface.

If you're trying (as is usually the case) to roll up off the water then
using the bottom is a failure of sorts, but as has been pointed out, if
you get up then you're up and never mind the Style Points, at least you
can breathe now!

My point was that although punting off the bottom is more typically a
beginnery thing, experienced people will sometimes use them too.

So don't worry!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

You're quite right, I read "not just for beginners" as "just not for
beginners".

And you've correctly identified that I am a little worried about this
sort of thing, since I read an article about preventing shoulder
injuries, where the author said this rolling up off the bottom is one
way to dislocate a shoulder. He said he would write another article
about how to prevent that, but it hasn't appeared yet. I really really
don't want to dislocate a shoulder.

Bernie

"Bernie Inakayak" wrote in message
ups.com...
You're quite right, I read "not just for beginners" as "just not for
beginners".

And you've correctly identified that I am a little worried about this
sort of thing, since I read an article about preventing shoulder
injuries, where the author said this rolling up off the bottom is one
way to dislocate a shoulder. He said he would write another article
about how to prevent that, but it hasn't appeared yet. I really really
don't want to dislocate a shoulder.

You could dislocate your shoulder putting a jacket on...

If you think about the action involved in rolling and that sweep out and
down, it is a very short step to sweeping it too far back and everything
going per shaped anyway. I've known a few people pull back and shoulder
muscles when rolling and getting it wrong.

I'd imagine that in punting the danger would really be in flowing water,
where your paddle stuck in the bed of the river/ lake/ sea, remains fixed
and your boat and you get swept forwards placing your shoulder in a
dangerous position. The usual motto applies, if it hurts stop doing it. In
this case, if it starts hurting, let go. On a river if you go over in 2
feet of water and can't get back up, there is a good chance you could lose a
few teeth - at least. I'd try punting.

Ewan Scott

Bernie Inakayak wrote:

And you've correctly identified that I am a little worried about this
sort of thing, since I read an article about preventing shoulder
injuries, where the author said this rolling up off the bottom is one
way to dislocate a shoulder.

I'm quite sure it is. OTOH, when I do a punt/pole roll I'm on autopilot
and I doubt I'm alone, and furthermore the case that while a dislocated
shoulder would be Very Bad, it's not nearly as Very Bad as breathing
seawater would be ;-/

He said he would write another article
about how to prevent that, but it hasn't appeared yet. I really really
don't want to dislocate a shoulder.

My take on how not to do that... practice practice practice, while
keeping a close eye on your shoulders. I've not dislocated one yet
(touch formica) but it was the case that early on in my rolling career
when I tended to use more brute force and ignorance than technique I did
strain some muscles in my right shoulder and had to lay off the pool
sessions for a while. As I've got more experienced I very clearly use
less power and more technique, which will help those shoulders stay
where they're meant to be.

My "rolls in anger" have not been as good as my pre-setup practice
rolls, not surprisingly. But they're still much better than they were.
The longer I'm under and the closer to bailing out I feel I am the
sloppier the technique tends to be, which is also not hugely surprising...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Yes, I suppose I could dislocate a shoulder putting a jacket on, but on
the other hand I never have, never felt close to it, whereas when I am
surfing I do feel a fair bit of force on my shoulder. I read an article
about this by one Wayne Horovitz, and I wrote to him asking what his
technique is for righting yourself in shallow water, but he hasn't
responded yet.

I will certainly have a serious go at punting next time I am in the
soup. I might try it in the baths tomorrow, if they will let me in the
baby pool!

Thanks Ewan

Bernie Inakayak wrote:

I will certainly have a serious go at punting next time I am in the
soup.

Not something I've ever made a conscious decision to do, it's just I've
found the bottom, there's this big pole in my hand... it just seemed the
obvious and natural thing to do!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Ah, but in my admittedly limited experience of kayaking, the obvious
and natural thing to do is invariably wrong!

"Bernie Inakayak" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ah, but in my admittedly limited experience of kayaking, the obvious
and natural thing to do is invariably wrong!

I think what Peter is saying is that when you attempt to roll, and fail, and
your paddle finds the bottom, and it is shallower than you thought, a punt
is the natural reaction. It would not be wise to rely on punting - but as an
option when all else has failed, it certainly beats the pants off exiting
the boat :-) As a corollary, it is not outwith the bounds of possibility
that you punt off a soft base, and your paddle jams and either hauls you
back in, or you right yourself and find that your paddle is waving at you
from its wedged position as you drift downstream :-)

It happened to me once, and I was fortunate that I got grounded a little
downstream and my paddle eventually caught up with me.I'm not brave enough
to do rapids without a paddle!

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

I think what Peter is saying is that when you attempt to roll, and fail, and
your paddle finds the bottom, and it is shallower than you thought, a punt
is the natural reaction.

Exactly! I have never set off with the specific intention of
punting off the bottom, except once when I was in about 6" of water
coming into land (it didn't work, rather pathetically!)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Oh I know that feeling!

Have you ever seen William Nealy's book on white water paddling? I am
pretty sure it has diagrams showing a very simple style of combat roll. I
feel that a simple combat roll, starting leaning as far forward as you can
(keeping your face out of harms way)and then a short sweep/stroke of the
paddle bringing across the boat is effective. You need a serious hip
flick but the blade ends beside you (protecting your shoulder) in position
for a stroke or support and your shoulder and face are protected all the
time. The key to initiating it is dropping your steadying hand as near
below your boat as you can so that as you start to sweep the blade out
with your other hand, the "passive" blade actually goes under the hull so
that everything is kept tight.

This can actually be practised lying on your side in shallow water so you
get the feel for the blade movement.

You will I am sure get there really quickly - everyone I know with your
sort of determination does!

Cheers

David

In article .com,
(Bernie Inakayak) wrote:

*Subject:* How do you roll up in very shallow water?
*From:* "Bernie Inakayak"
*Date:* 30 Sep 2005 02:06:06 -0700

Thanks for the responses so far.

David. "Just hanging around until you have sorted yourself out does
it".

I had to laugh. I decided to ask this question yesterday evening, when
I was doing exactly this, hanging around, upside down under the boat,
furious, with my head bumping gently off the bottom. If I try to use
the paddle as a punt I find I can nearly get up, but I just can't get
the boat upright because my hands are on the paddle and too far off to
the side. I tried to use my hands, but really it was the same problem,
hands are on the bottom so I can't lie back to lower my centre of
gravity or the hands come off the bottom.

I've practiced trying to roll up when I am on dry land, I seem to be
able to manage that, but put me in 2 foot of water and I am stuffed.

Bernie

Thanks for the encouragement David. I was surfing yesterday in my
biggest waves yet, 4-5 feet, and I didn't actually manage to capsize
accidentally in the shallows so I could have a practice, and for some
reason I didn't fancy volunteering!

I've just ordered the Nealy book, seemed like a good read.

Cheers,

Bernie

How do you roll up in very shallow water?

get some waterproof rizzlas!

sorry!
--
Kind regards


Steve Bury




"Bernie Inakayak" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,

I have been learning to surf. I find if I get turned over in fairly
shallow water I can't roll back upright. I can roll if the water is
deeper.

Any suggestions anybody?

Bernie