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Advice to new paddlers about kit
Hi
What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith |
Keith Meredith wrote:
Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith Have you looked here ?. http://www.bcu.org.uk/aboutus/gettingstarted.html Bill |
In message
Bill Oldroyd wrote: Keith Meredith wrote: Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith Have you looked here ?. http://www.bcu.org.uk/aboutus/gettingstarted.html Bill 1 Cag 2 Thermals 3 wetsuit boots 4 Paddle 5 Buoyancy aid 6 Helmet Then the order gets more difficult depending a lot on what sort of paddling is planned, and what time of year Car Roofrack Waterproof Kitbag Boat (yes I meant this to be last). -- Alan Adams http://www.nckc.org.uk/ |
"Keith Meredith" wrote in message ... Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith Hiya ****For flat water paddling****: 1/ membership of a suitable club. Most flat water clubs will have items 7 to 10 available for new members to borrow. 2/ wet shoes (not boots) 3/ leggings or shorts 4/ T shirts 5/ cag (only used if the weather is very chilly, or during heavy rain) 6/ Floatie glasses strap if the paddler wears glasses. Items 2 to 6 are personal needs, are an aid to comfort if they fit properly, and much nicer to know they are clean! 7/ BA (usually discarded after the initial stabilisation and learning period, except for when competing in lower divisional races) 8/ paddle 9/ spray deck (not used by a lot of flat water paddlers) 10/ boat Items 7 to 10 can be bought when the novice has tried out a variety of kit, and has a better idea of what suits their individual needs. 11/ drink bottle/bag may be needed if racing. 12/ I like to wear a canvas Tilly hat while paddling. It is water proof, it floats, it keeps the sun out of my eyes & off my head, it also keeps the rain off my head and off my glasses. It keeps flies off my head and deflects them away from my face. When racing I soak the hat in the water just before the start and it cools me down. I can keep a spare key and £5 in a sealed plastic bag in the pocket hidden in the crown of the hat. When I'm out in windy weather, the brim folds up on either side to reduce the drag and the hat fastens on to my head with an adjustable tie at the back. For really strong winds it also ties on under my chin. My Tilly hat is my favourite canoeing accessory. I wash it in the dishwasher (no, not with the dishes in!). 13/ Extended V- bars & bungees to transport the boat to races. 14/ roof rack to mount V bars on. 15/ vehicle to mount roof rack on. (A very few clubs have their own trailer to transport member's boats to races. Often a fellow club member will offer to transport a new member's boat until they can obtain their own rack & transport) Note; all the above applies to flat water; bumpy water paddling may have different customs in place. David Not a fan of over spending too soon. Hmmm, too many words, delete the last two words. |
"Alan Adams" wrote in message ... In message Bill Oldroyd wrote: Keith Meredith wrote: Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith Have you looked here ?. http://www.bcu.org.uk/aboutus/gettingstarted.html Bill 1 Cag 2 Thermals 3 wetsuit boots 4 Paddle 5 Buoyancy aid 6 Helmet Then the order gets more difficult depending a lot on what sort of paddling is planned, and what time of year Car Roofrack Waterproof Kitbag Boat (yes I meant this to be last). I'd take a different approach since I teach kids, as I suspect will Keith. 1. Light footwear, preferably wetsuit boots, but something close fitting and compact - save the complaint of feet getting stuck. 2. Cag - one with neoprene cuffs and a velcro neck seal will do initially. By the time they get to 3 star most kids will need another one anyway. 3. Thermals Since we provide all the boats, helmets etc there is no need for any more purchases - but... 4. Helmet 5. Buoyancy Aid Depending upon how comfortable the Club ones are... Then look at a paddle and boat. By this time they should also be looking at building up their first aid and emergency kit. The contents of the latter being a source of much debate perhaps they should be best left for another thread. Of course it helps if they have some way of getting their boat to the water. If the newbie is under 17 the car doesn't figure, here they usually have a pre-available parent for transport. Or a club with a communal trailer. Waterproof kitbag.... hmmm. So that the wet gear can be dumped in it and forgotten till birds fall out of the sky when you open it :-) Ewan Scott |
Keith Meredith wrote:
What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? How new is new? First thing I'd advise is getting enough experience to get an idea of=20 what you'll want, c/o a club and/or paddling pals. A couple of folk I=20 know spent ~ =A34K before they'd even done any real paddling, which I=20 regard as frankly insane. I don't want to discourage this sort of thing = as it should mean a very healthy second hand sea boat market in a couple = of years, but it really is Quite Mad buying before you can reasonably be = sure what you want *and* you can borrow until you find out. Having borrowed stuff from club and friends to start with, first stuff I = got for myself was a BA and a cag, because at least sea paddling these=20 are the items that make the biggest comfort difference (if you're 10=20 miles between landings then pockets on a BA make a /huge/ difference!). Wet suit was next, for forays into rivers and surf. As with the wet=20 suit, one's own helmet means a selection can be made for personal fit=20 rather than the nearest you can get from the club's store. Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
And add a spraydeck in there about number 4... |
In article , Ewan Scott
wrote: I'd take a different approach since I teach kids, as I suspect will Keith. 1. Light footwear, preferably wetsuit boots, Footwear, yes. But definitely not wetsuit boots. Cheap plimmies are the best for beginners. but something close fitting and compact - save the complaint of feet getting stuck. 2. Cag - one with neoprene cuffs and a velcro neck seal will do initially. Windproof outer layer, certainly. But definitely NOT neo cuffs and neck seals. Lots of reasons, but basically they are crap, uncomfortable and unnecessary. Allan Bennett Not a fan of kit junkies -- |
For chucking real money I would spend all the extra or available cash (
after food and rent ) on a BA and a paddle. If you love the sport a high quality BA and Paddle willl make a huge difference. You have some really great information from the other posters. The Forst Aid / Emergency kit mentioned does deserve a string of its own. |
In article , Muzz
wrote: Keith Meredith wrote: Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith My club lists it as follows, after buying a long john wet suit : Some youngsters (1* standard) turned up at my Club with wetsuits - I refused to let them on the water until they had changed into T-shirts and shorts. I have never paddled in conditions in this country in the last 35 years where a thermal / T-shirt / Lightweight cag combo was not adequate (add a woolly hat, maybe and pogies for the woossies). Even in a -25 degree chill factor. No wetsuits. No wet suit boots, no dry cags or neoprene collars and cuffs. Proper canoeing, mind, not sub-aqua or caving. Allan Bennett Not a fan of frogs -- |
Allan Bennett wrote:
Some youngsters (1* standard) turned up at my Club with wetsuits - I refused to let them on the water until they had changed into T-shirts and shorts. I have never paddled in conditions in this country in the last 35 years where a thermal / T-shirt / Lightweight cag combo was not adequate (add a woolly hat, maybe and pogies for the woossies). Even in a -25 degree chill factor. No wetsuits. No wet suit boots, no dry cags or neoprene collars and cuffs. I'll pass this to the president of Inverness Canoe Club :-) -- Muzz send mail to |
But why make yourself cold and wet when you can be warm and dry? Seems
bloody stupid to me! I love my dry cag, wouldn't want to learn to roll without it. I also get cold after 30mins on the sea even with dry cag and fleece, so I dunno where you're paddling! Charlotte. "Allan Bennett" wrote in message ... In article , Muzz wrote: Keith Meredith wrote: Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith My club lists it as follows, after buying a long john wet suit : Some youngsters (1* standard) turned up at my Club with wetsuits - I refused to let them on the water until they had changed into T-shirts and shorts. I have never paddled in conditions in this country in the last 35 years where a thermal / T-shirt / Lightweight cag combo was not adequate (add a woolly hat, maybe and pogies for the woossies). Even in a -25 degree chill factor. No wetsuits. No wet suit boots, no dry cags or neoprene collars and cuffs. Proper canoeing, mind, not sub-aqua or caving. Allan Bennett Not a fan of frogs -- |
In article , Charlie
wrote: But why make yourself cold and wet when you can be warm and dry? But I don't get cold because I wear the right kit for the conditions! That's why paddling on cold days in the /right/ kit is so enjoyable. Seems bloody stupid to me! I love my dry cag, wouldn't want to learn to roll without it. I also get cold after 30mins on the sea even with dry cag and fleece, so I dunno where you're paddling! Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for kit for a beginner! None of you have stated that you are recommending stuff for specialist and possibly extreme forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also restrictive and limits the enjoyment of paddling, IMO. Allan Bennett Not a fan of arctic rolls -- |
Charlie wrote:
But why make yourself cold and wet when you can be warm and dry? Seems bloody stupid to me! Being dry requires not only that outside water stays out, but that inside water (i.e., sweat) doesn't stay in. And whatever you're told about breathable waterproof fabrics by marketing, /none/ of them will let out sweat at anything like the rate a paddler doing even a moderate amount of work will generate. Consequently I avoid wearing a cag unless there'll be sufficient rain/spray to get me wet faster than my shirt will normally dry. Otherwise I'll be /too/ warm, and not very dry. That's for typical sea paddling, in the surf or the (white) river I'll always wear the cag as otherwise I'll get wet and cold. For Allan's flavour of paddling (fla****er and fast AFAICT) I'd agree that something like a Helly Lifa top is just about ideal, and I'd certainly want a lot more in white water. "Paddling" can mean either, or quite a few other things too. Would polo players bother with dry suits? Doubt it... I love my dry cag, wouldn't want to learn to roll without it. I also get cold after 30mins on the sea even with dry cag and fleece, so I dunno where you're paddling! Dry cag /and/ fleece? Bloody 'ell Charlie, you must be /very/ prone to the cold or not doing any work! Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
Allan Bennett wrote:
Footwear, yes. But definitely not wetsuit boots. Cheap plimmies are the best for beginners. I prefer sandals. If the cockpit is dry enough for your feet to get out of any puddles therein then a foot in sandals will dry out quickly from body heat and as a result be warmer than if it's covered in a layer of wet plimmie or wet neoprene. I was very surprised when I found my feet stayed warmer /without/ neoprene socks, but if your feet aren't permanently awash and/or in the open air then you're actually better off without anything wet covering the foot IME. Windproof outer layer, certainly. But definitely NOT neo cuffs and neck seals. Lots of reasons, but basically they are crap, uncomfortable and unnecessary. Depends what you're doing. I use a semi-dry cag if I use a cag at all for comfort reasons, primarily around the neck. But in surf I'm happy to borrow a dry cag because comfort while upright is a bit of a non-issue battering through breakers, and comfort upside down or shortly after such is greatly improved. Similarly with cuffs: the paddling/water style will determine how much water gets up one's sleeves or not. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
wrote:
For chucking real money I would spend all the extra or available cash (= after food and rent ) on a BA and a paddle. If you love the sport a high quality BA and Paddle willl make a huge difference. But what paddle? My sea paddle would set you back about =A3200 if you=20 went and bought one yourself. I like it a lot for sea touring, but it's = too long for whitewater use and the blades aren't up to the abuse of=20 bouncing off rocks. A polo player would probably have little use for=20 variable feather, and so on. A good paddle is indeed worth spending on, = but only when you know what "good" is /for your own situation/. And it's also the case that a good paddle isn't /necessarily/ a lot of=20 money. A friend paddles his home made baidarka with a home made=20 traditional wooden paddle, basically a long stick with flattened ends.=20 Cost nothing but time, works very well, and it's easier to roll with=20 than my carbon fibre confection. Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
Last month I plucked three people out of the water. Now I am in the
North Atlantic with the Labrador Current keeping the water below 10 C all year around. Two of the folks that went over were in a double and had no idea what they were up to. They were wearing jeans and T shirts. They were less than comfortable with the man in a pure panic from the shock of cold water. The lady was pretty calm. The other rescue was a beginner but he had read that the water was cold. He wore a wet suit ( 2 MM) and for him it was little more than an embaracement and was uncomfortable. He was back in the boat quickly because of his ability to listen, an idea how to do this in the first place and the dread of cold water and shock of imersion was mitigated by a wet suit. In 1999 the finest paddler I have ever met, stated. " I don't swim " he was leading a large tour of mostly beginners in May. We were in a remote area ( compatitively ) and a nasty wind rolled in. Of the 35 or so people about half ended up in the water. At one point Jimbo was helping stabalize a speed boat by hanging on tt the gunnels on one side as a casualty was hauled aboard. A wave picked the speed boat up and planted it on top of Jimbo turning his boat upside down ( luckily ): Jimbo swam. He was in neoprene shorts. Jimbo went from leader, guide, rescuer streight to casualty sucking up rescue energies. Had he a wet suit or ( like me ) a dry suit he would have been back in the fight imediately. If the water is at all cold , wear neoprene. My experiences are in water that is normally cold. The ponds and lakes here rarely excede 17 C . If the water is over 20 C ignore this.. Thanks Alex The Names of the casualties have been omited or changed. In Jimbos case only slightly. As he remains the finest paddler I have ever met I can say that knowing it will gain a laugh even here in Newfoundland. |
wrote:
Last month I plucked three people out of the water. Now I am in the North Atlantic with the Labrador Current keeping the water below 10 C all year around. Thobut you'll have trouble finding anything that cold in the UK (and=20 while anyone is welcome to visit here the context would appear to me to=20 be the UK) unless you're out in a river in the depths of winter. That=20 pretty much rules out beginners unless they're masochists with it. If the water is at all cold , wear neoprene. How cold is cold? And you must also factor in the degree to which dressing for the swim=20 will affect your primary paddling. The current Knoydart catalogue=20 suggests you always dress for the swinm, and that a Goretex drysuit=20 (which they happen to sell for mucho =A3=A3=A3s) is always ideal as you c= an=20 layer underneath to suit. If it's a hot day (in Scotland that will mean = a wee bit over 20 C (unlikely to get as far as 25) ambient but direct=20 sunshine and no respite from it, the water will be several degrees=20 cooler) then I'll be steaming in a BA and sun cream, so bugger putting=20 on a drysuit or wetsuit unless I want to expire from heat exhaustion.=20 If I can get out of the water in a reasonable time then I'll warm up=20 very quickly. And in many cases a swim isn't going to be a real problem. Offshore in=20 the N. Atlantic with a cold current thrown in, absolutely, but a flat=20 river less than 25m from bank to bank, rather less so... You need=20 context to make lists of necessary equipment mean much. Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
"Allan Bennett" wrote in message ... In article , Muzz wrote: Keith Meredith wrote: Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith My club lists it as follows, after buying a long john wet suit : Some youngsters (1* standard) turned up at my Club with wetsuits - I refused to let them on the water until they had changed into T-shirts and shorts. I have never paddled in conditions in this country in the last 35 years where a thermal / T-shirt / Lightweight cag combo was not adequate (add a woolly hat, maybe and pogies for the woossies). Even in a -25 degree chill factor. No wetsuits. No wet suit boots, no dry cags or neoprene collars and cuffs. Proper canoeing, mind, not sub-aqua or caving. That's fine, but when we are walking through light snow and paddling on rivers fringed with ice it is common sense to try top stay warm. I've been out many times and in the early days it was tee shirts and sweat shirts and a waterproof top. In winter it was damned cold. Properly attired, thermals, long john wetsuit and a dry cag, spray deck, and perhaps open palmed mitts and we can stay warmer much longer, and if we do go for a swim, manage to build up a layer of warmth quite quickly. I see a big difference between kids with gear and kids without, and I don't just mean in their parent's bank balances. The kids with gear stay warmer and happier, and they also, as a side effect have more confidence as they are less concerned about getting wet. I'd stand by what I said earlier. Ewan Scott |
"Allan Bennett" wrote in message ... In article , Charlie wrote: But why make yourself cold and wet when you can be warm and dry? But I don't get cold because I wear the right kit for the conditions! That's why paddling on cold days in the /right/ kit is so enjoyable. Seems bloody stupid to me! I love my dry cag, wouldn't want to learn to roll without it. I also get cold after 30mins on the sea even with dry cag and fleece, so I dunno where you're paddling! Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for kit for a beginner! None of you have stated that you are recommending stuff for specialist and possibly extreme forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also restrictive and limits the enjoyment of paddling, IMO. In your opinion - fine. But the list is in order of preference for a beginner. The kit is not restrictive, it is not unnecessary and it need not be expensive. Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the enjoyment of the activity. Ewan Scott |
Ewan Scott wrote:
The kit is not restrictive All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/ restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water. it is not unnecessary Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the boat Just In Case. and it need not be expensive. But it will be more expensive than not having them. Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the enjoyment of the activity. But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days) I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping off cold water in appreciable quantities. In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically begin in benign conditions... Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner" doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game in town. My first paddling was mostly inna fla****er touring stylee as a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck... Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message ... Ewan Scott wrote: The kit is not restrictive All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/ restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water. That is of course true. Spending most of my paddling time teaching I tend to get A/ wet, and B/ spend more time than I should do observing rather than paddling. In the past four years I think we have paddled in tee shirts and shorts twice. it is not unnecessary Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the boat Just In Case. Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but then I'm not doing placid water nowadays. and it need not be expensive. But it will be more expensive than not having them. Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a £15 wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most kids starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water. The psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends. Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the enjoyment of the activity. But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days) I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping off cold water in appreciable quantities. If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have been out and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental capsize or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of our beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the following hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant. In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically begin in benign conditions... Indeed, but ithe more comfortable we can make them the more likely they are to get into the sport. Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner" doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game in town. My first paddling was mostly inna fla****er touring stylee as a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck... I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal and cag, of any sort were a better bet. Still shorts on the bottom half. But now when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (always a possibility) I prefer my wet suit.. Ewan Scott |
"Keith Meredith" wrote in message ... Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit (apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc. Best wishes Keith |
"Keith Meredith" wrote in message ... "Keith Meredith" wrote in message ... Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit (apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc. Does a bottle of water count? Seriously, having water is more important to me than having a hot drink ( I always have one with me but I frequently don't touch it till we are back at the car. Otherwise airbags in all the boats. It really gets on my tits when we are teaching kids and we have lots of rescues to do, and they have to do them too, and the boats don't have airbags- almost invariably kids tend to swamp the boats and it is a sod to empty them. At one point I had two instructors and seven kids, and I had two kids in the water at the same time and another two looking like going over. They had swamped the boats, and I was taking way longer than I should have to empty them. In the meantime the kids were grabbing at my boat and there was a strong possibility that they were going to put me over as well. Fortunately another coach arrived on scene and emptied the other boat. So airbags all round. Flat water coaching, whitewater. Ewan Scott |
In message
"Keith Meredith" wrote: "Keith Meredith" wrote in message ... Hi What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on? Keith Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit (apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc. Waterproof digital camera. Discipline - whatever I'm doing at the time. Best wishes Keith -- Alan Adams http://www.nckc.org.uk/ |
Keith Meredith wrote:
Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit (apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc. We had a gear evening earlier in the year, where the club training officer was going through useful things to take on a (sea kayak) trip. She asked folk to bring along a favourite bit of kit, and say why it was a fave. The training officer's own stated fave was a roll of plastic bags, reinforcing that in a weekend of sea paddling you typically spend more time camping, preparing food, packing and unpacking than you do paddling. Mine was a pair of wicking underpants, as they dry out faster than they get wet, at least if you're not wearing a wet suit. Very big comfort difference, and no need to change them when you get out. A new chap, who'd been out and bought /everything/ (including a P&H quest, before he'd even been kayaking), took a VHF radio that had an interlock to his GPS. Compare and contrast with dry pants and a roll of ziplock baggies! ;-) Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
Ewan Scott wrote:
Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, bu= t then I'm not doing placid water nowadays. Fair comment, and we're down to semantics in a way. I always have a cag = with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first=20 started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts = for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally=20 good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up=20 paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like=20 paddling before they spend =A350+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seal= s=20 that won't be much use for anything bar paddling. Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a =A3= 15 wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most = kids starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water.= The psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends= =2E Agreed, but I think most people have something that will do as a=20 windbreaker, or can borrow something that will, without going off and=20 buying a paddling cag. If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have bee= n out and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental ca= psize or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of = our beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the followi= ng hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant. If you're in in 5 minutes then it's easy enough to get changed and dried = and start again without killing it for everyone. Being splashed when=20 you're wearing a windproof smock as against capsizing in a cotton T are=20 rather different things. While ideally someone who's going to fall in will be better off in a=20 wettie than without unless it's a nice summer day (but why not start off = on a nice summer day if you have the choice?), that's not quite the same = as blow =A3100 on a paddler's wetsuit and cag before you start or you'll = have a crap time... Nobody's really suggested that's the case, but it=20 could certainly have been inferred. Indeed, but ithe more comfortable we can make them the more likely they= are to get into the sport. This is true, but one also has an obligation not to waste people's=20 money. Paddling isn't for some people even if they do get all the gear=20 (I'm rather hoping that the "new black" status of sea paddling will mean = a rash of second hand hardly used and very nice boats in a couple of=20 years... ;-)) and I think in a lot of cases they would be better off in=20 make-dos for the first few sessions. And that's not necessarily a=20 problem: friends that have paddled for 3 or 4 years now still hire out=20 TSKC wetties, cags and BAs, and though I personally think they'd be=20 better off getting their own at this point it certainly hasn't put them=20 off! My cag is a semi-dry, I'll borrow a dry for surf if I can, but the = amount I do I can't justify the cost compared to stuff like, say, beer! ;= -) I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal = and cag, of any sort were a better bet. Right, here's one I think we can suggest for almost anyone: a good=20 wicking baselayer top! Keeps you as comfortable as you'll get and dries = out nice and quickly. Helly Lifa, Lowe Dryflo or similar. Highly=20 recommended! when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (a= lways a possibility) I prefer my wet suit.. Though you'd probably prefer a dry suit. I can't justify one myself,=20 but for those spending a lot of time in the water they seem to be well=20 worth thinking about. I'll get one some day, probably when (not "if",=20 but "when") I win the lottery... Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
Allan Bennett wrote:
Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for kit for a beginner! None of you have stated that you are recommending stuff for specialist and possibly extreme forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also restrictive and limits the enjoyment of paddling, IMO. I am a beginner, doing my two star training, before getting in the boat we must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess what they were wearing ? I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with the coaches recommendations. I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit, one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme, I felt good enough to get out of the boat and swim it to shore at the end of the session. -- Muzz send mail to |
Muzz wrote:
I am a beginner, doing my two star training Define "beginner"... it would be fair to take it to mean "has never been in a boat before", or just two or three times. Rather lower than prospective 2* in terms of experience. before getting in the boat we must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess what they were wearing ? But what sort of paddling and in what conditions? We never put helmets on people for pool sessions and typical touring paddling, they're not really any use and just make it hard to hear what's going on while reducing comfort (and consequently enjoyment). In white water and surf it's a very different matter, you'd probably be daft not to, but that's not the only way to go paddling. BA I always wear, but lots of people in my club just borrow one form the club, so they don't need one themselves. Same for a wetsuit and cag, though most people wear them because they assume they're better off in them because they're there... and when we're out on the water I'm far more comfy in fleece tights and shirt than they are in their "proper paddling kit" of wet suit and cag. But in any event, your coaches have put all this stuff out, why do you need to go and buy it yourself right away? Surely you'd be better getting experience before you decide what to spend your funds on so you can make an informed choice on what *you* need rather than what I think you might? I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with the coaches recommendations. Though there's more to a coach's recommendations than what is what you'll reasonably get away with. If they have access to a load of safety kit to loan out (check!) and they live in an increasingly litigious society (check!) that tends to be preoccupied with Having All The Right Stuff (check!) then it's hardly surprising they get people to wear it. And we're back to particular discipline of paddling. AB is a coach, but flat water marathon and sprint IIRC, which has no need for helmets or wetsuits and little use for cags beyond windbreakers. I recently did cycle leader training. We were told we should always wear cycle helmets to be "good role models". I pointed out there is no good evidence that cycle helmets make any useful difference to serious injuries on the roads (don't believe that? look at www.cyclehelmets.org), and I prefer to be a good role model by showing you can ride a bike without recourse to unnecessary and ultimately unhelpful accessories that put many people off what is often seen as far more dangerous than it really is, so I'll be wearing my cotton cycling cap when I'm out teaching tonight. Cycling isn't the only area that suffers from a preoccupation with supposing safety gear aimed at far different situations must be a benefit anywhere else it can be deployed. I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit, one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme An eskimo rescue is specialist if you take a general view of paddling the full spectrum of canoes and kayaks. There are plenty of boats where you won't do one because the boats don't run with decks and you can't brace yourself in. For such craft an eskimo rescue is esoteric and overspecialised, and thus rather an extreme thing to learn. In many boats if you go in then you'll swim. As long as you can swim then there's not much issue with doing extra practice, and you're better getting on with how not to swim... Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
Peter Clinch wrote: wrote: For chucking real money I would spend all the extra or available cash ( after food and rent ) on a BA and a paddle. If you love the sport a high quality BA and Paddle willl make a huge difference. But what paddle? My sea paddle would set you back about =A3200 if you went and bought one yourself. I like it a lot for sea touring, but it's too long for whitewater use and the blades aren't up to the abuse of bouncing off rocks. A polo player would probably have little use for variable feather, and so on. A good paddle is indeed worth spending on, but only when you know what "good" is /for your own situation/. You are quite right . I made an assumption that a sea paddler is a different bird than a white water paddler. I play in both but i believe white water paddling , sea kayaking, open canoeing , single skull rowing are all different sports. I play at all of them but the BA is often the only peice of gear that moves from one to the other. Armed with that information, ( will I paddle on the ocean, do I preffer battering through white water or would I like just paddling on inland water ways for short distances. Each had a different set of tools. Assured of where I want to paddle I can then go shopping for appropriate gear. I think a paddle is a pivotal piece of gear. And it's also the case that a good paddle isn't /necessarily/ a lot of money. A friend paddles his home made baidarka with a home made traditional wooden paddle, basically a long stick with flattened ends. Cost nothing but time, works very well, and it's easier to roll with than my carbon fibre confection. I made a Greenland paddle too. I like my Carbon Fiber confection. I do agree about cost though . I bought a lovely used paddle some years back, I can't get it back off my wife. It is the best paddle I have ever used. This year I spent a lot of money on a bent shaft paddle ( the Scottish one ) It is my spare, Very disapointing. I consider WW and Sea kayaking different sports. The only reason I ww kayak is to speed up my bracing and rescue skills. Well that and showing off seal launches and the likes. It is seasonal here while the sea is always open some where. Alex Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
How Cold id cold?
Cold is what the Clyde is now . I swam in the Clyde and Gareloch as a kid. At 10 years old that water was bitter. Less than 25 Meters from a bank with the ability to get out is not bad. Actually it does not even leave an argument, if you are reliably in flat water, that is 20 + degrees and have a comfortable air temperature you don't need any of this stuff. If you have a wind chill of - 20 as posted earlier or any number of other safety issues a wet suit ( if only a shorty ) is a good idea.. Alex |
wrote:
I think a paddle is a pivotal piece of gear. Indeed it is, but to be honest you can come a long way off "top of the range" and still have a very capable bit of kit that will do everything you ever need. I made a Greenland paddle too. I like my Carbon Fiber confection. And I like mine, but it doesn't have it 100% its own way despite being an order of magnitude more expensive. For example, the Greenland paddle is much better for inside leaned turns, because you can use it as a long float. ever used. This year I spent a lot of money on a bent shaft paddle ( the Scottish one ) It is my spare, Very disapointing. I have a mod crank Lendal. I can take or leave the cranks and I wouldn't bother with them if I had to replace the current shaft, but friends I know with a lot of experience are very keen on them and find they make a tangibly useful difference to wrist fatigue over a long day. Personally I find that changing the feather and/or blades makes more difference (I have Paddloks so can change the blades easily, I started off with polypro Nordkapps and Archipelagos, found I preferred narrower, got the Archs in carbon). Some people I know find cranks make their wrist problems worse, so I would say try before you buy if at all possible and also that you really need ones made for your own thumb-thumb distance. If you buy a "standard" shaft off the shelf it's entirely possible the cranks will be at the wrong distance apart, which makes it worse than pointless. I've used carbon Nimbus in a couple of the narrow flavours and they were fine, but not obviously better or worse than my own Lendals. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message ... Ewan Scott wrote: Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but then I'm not doing placid water nowadays. with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like paddling before they spend £50+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seals that won't be much use for anything bar paddling. Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a £15 wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most kids starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water. The psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends. Agreed, but I think most people have something that will do as a windbreaker, or can borrow something that will, without going off and buying a paddling cag. Not so I'm afraid. Most kids don't appear to have waterproof clothing nowadays. Of the 50 something we have started out on One Star courses over the past four years I think three have actually turned up with a waterproof/ windproof top. the rest have all had "shower proof" branded fashion tops. I have a growing colection of old cags which we loan out - but it gets a bit tiring washing the kit every time we go out. e still have three star paddlers who haven't bought any kit yet. Perhaps the difference is that we are not a kayak club, we are a Scout group that majors in kayaking (amongst other activities), and parents won't fork out for what they see as a short term activity. Sadly, that approach leaves some kids poorly prepared for the colder weather. If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have been out and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental capsize or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of our beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the following hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant. If you're in in 5 minutes then it's easy enough to get changed and dried and start again without killing it for everyone. Being splashed when you're wearing a windproof smock as against capsizing in a cotton T are rather different things. You obviously don't have the same set of problems we have :-) We tell them arrive for 9:30, on the water by 10:00 at the latest. We arrive at 9:15, offload the boats, and fit them all with kit. By 9:30 the first couple have arrived. By 10:00 we are still short a couple. We put the extra kit and boats back on the trailer, and head off to the water. 10:10, the last two arrive, and we are back up to the trailer to offload the boats and kit. So we don't actually get started till maybe 10:25.. At 10:30 someone in a tee shirt and shorts falls in, and needs to get changed. So I'm back off the water up to the car and we wait another 10 minutes for them to get changed.... I'd rather they came as well prepared as possible and we set off to do our stuff, and only returned at the end of the session. I'd tell them that if they are late then they go home, but that isn't the way things seem to be done nowadays. While ideally someone who's going to fall in will be better off in a wettie than without unless it's a nice summer day (but why not start off on a nice summer day if you have the choice?), that's not quite the same as blow £100 on a paddler's wetsuit and cag before you start or you'll have a crap time... Nobody's really suggested that's the case, but it could certainly have been inferred. We start outdoors training in April, the water is cold until late July, stays warm till September and then gets cold again in October. With summer holidays in mind that gives us about four weeks of warm water. Experience tells us that the most important first purchase, and this is probably different from what I said earlier - is some footweat. We do advise basic old fashioned gym shoes for £1.99 a pair, which are disposable, buy give protection against sharp stuff in the ground, and are compact in the boat (as compared to trainers). They usually buy neoprene beach slippers or wet suit boots because gym shoes aren't fashionable at all! Then we advise a cag. Those who are keen tend to go out and buy a westsuit - now that's where money can get wasted. Some buy cheap 2mm wetsuits that just about work in summer. Better spend an extra 15 quid for a 3mm, for a beginner. But what they buy is up to them. Indeed, but the more comfortable we can make them the more likely they are to get into the sport. This is true, but one also has an obligation not to waste people's money. Paddling isn't for some people even if they do get all the gear (I'm rather hoping that the "new black" status of sea paddling will mean a rash of second hand hardly used and very nice boats in a couple of years... ;-)) and I think in a lot of cases they would be better off in make-dos for the first few sessions. And that's not necessarily a problem: friends that have paddled for 3 or 4 years now still hire out TSKC wetties, cags and BAs, and though I personally think they'd be better off getting their own at this point it certainly hasn't put them off! My cag is a semi-dry, I'll borrow a dry for surf if I can, but the amount I do I can't justify the cost compared to stuff like, say, beer! ;-) I'd agree that we don't want to waste peoples' money but on the other hand we have a bunch of kids who, if they are going out to play football on the street, have to have the latest Man U kit ( down here anyway). We used to play in tee shirts and shorts, nowadays they have to have all the right kit. Now this may be a self fulfilling prophesy, but the kids who buy some kit, tend to be the ones who carry on with the activity. If they ask I'll not put them off. The one thing I do put them off buying is a boat. A lot of people are way too fashion conscious and will buy the flavour of the month rather than a boat suitable for the paddling they are doing. My own lad bought a Sub 6 - against my advice. I knew that he would be doing river running and it was way too small (cue debate), two years down the line he is egging for a bigger boat for river work and coaching. But some folks just won't be told :-) I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal and cag, of any sort were a better bet. Right, here's one I think we can suggest for almost anyone: a good wicking baselayer top! Keeps you as comfortable as you'll get and dries out nice and quickly. Helly Lifa, Lowe Dryflo or similar. Highly recommended! I use a Salewa, thermal. Polyester, breathes and wicks, I can come out of the water wet, and if I take my cag off it dries in minutes yet I stay warm. So I think 100 per cent agreed on that. when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (always a possibility) I prefer my wet suit.. Though you'd probably prefer a dry suit. I can't justify one myself, but for those spending a lot of time in the water they seem to be well worth thinking about. I'll get one some day, probably when (not "if", but "when") I win the lottery... Yup, a dry suit is on the wish list. I just have this fear of wasting the best part of £350 and getting it ripped on a thorn bush or something on the first trip out. So far getting wet in the wetsuit hasn't really been an issue. I did get hypothermic on one trip and my bodily functions shut down for three days - that was pretty scary, but I doubt that a dry suit would have made any difference that particular day. Ewan Scott |
I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit, one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme An eskimo rescue is specialist if you take a general view of paddling the full spectrum of canoes and kayaks. There are plenty of boats where you won't do one because the boats don't run with decks and you can't brace yourself in. For such craft an eskimo rescue is esoteric and overspecialised, and thus rather an extreme thing to learn. In many boats if you go in then you'll swim. As long as you can swim then there's not much issue with doing extra practice, and you're better getting on with how not to swim... Sounds like we are talking CCK 2 star here, and eskimo is , as I am sure you know, part of the syllabus. We actually start teaching it from day one in the pool as it helps with hip flicks. Amazing to see kids just starting out, capsize, reach out and grab the nearest boat and flip themselves back up... If CCK then, by definition, an eskimo rescue is always an option. HST, you'd probably be very lucky to use it "textbook" fashion in anger, I suspect. Ewan Scott |
Ewan Scott wrote:
Sounds like we are talking CCK 2 star here, and eskimo is , as I am sure you know, part of the syllabus. I didn't, as it happens. I have a 3* but only did that as a formality for a start towards the teaching ladder as TSKC is currently getting swamped with new members depsite us trying to beat them off with a ****ty stick and we need more people who can do basic teaching. Beyond that I'm very happy to learn skills but have very limited interest in owning a piece of paper that tells me what I'm capable of doing. We actually start teaching it from day one in the pool as it helps with hip flicks. So do we at TSKC, but the other paddling club I'm in, East of Scotland Open Canoe, doesn't have much use for hip flicks... If you want to stick to kayaks, I doubt a sprint K2 crew would find much use for them. And so on. If CCK then, by definition, an eskimo rescue is always an option. HST, you'd probably be very lucky to use it "textbook" fashion in anger, I suspect. Indeed. The chances of holding your breath long enough for someone to get lined up on you in the sort of conditions that will knock you in are pretty limited, I'd say. They certainly are useful as a quick get-out having buggered up a controlled practice roll that doesn't then require you to empty the boat and get back in it, and controlled roll practice beyond the pool we always have a boat lined up for one. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
In article , Peter Clinch
wrote: Ewan Scott wrote: Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but then I'm not doing placid water nowadays. Fair comment, and we're down to semantics in a way. I always have a cag with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like paddling before they spend £50+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seals that won't be much use for anything bar paddling. ....actually... I would find such a thing useless for paddling in! Fine for sitting around in and posing, in mid-winter, maybe. But sitting around in a boat in mid-winter is not canoeing, IMO. Wear a (lightweight!) cag for the warm-up and remove it for the session. [snipped daft ideas and sensible replies] Allan Bennett Not a fan of serious sea mammals -- |
In article , Muzz
wrote: Allan Bennett wrote: Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for kit for a beginner! None of you have stated that you are recommending stuff for specialist and possibly extreme forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also restrictive and limits the enjoyment of paddling, IMO. I am a beginner, doing my two star training, before getting in the boat we must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess what they were wearing ? I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with the coaches recommendations. I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit, one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme, I felt good enough to get out of the boat and swim it to shore at the end of the session. That is, of course, not canoeing. Allan Bennett Not a fan of blinkers -- |
Allan Bennett wrote:
In article , Peter Clinch wrote: paddling before they spend =A350+ on a twin waisted cag with serious se= als=20 that won't be much use for anything bar paddling. ...actually... I would find such a thing useless for paddling in! The difference between commission and omission... nobody would have much = use for a twin waisted whitewater cag except /some/ paddlers, /some/ of=20 the time... ;-) Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
Snip
Beyond that I'm very happy to learn skills but have very limited interest in owning a piece of paper that tells me what I'm capable of doing. Maybe that's a cue for a new thread... :-) Ewan Scott |
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