Peter Clinch wrote:
wrote:
For chucking real money I would spend all the extra or available cash (
after food and rent ) on a BA and a paddle. If you love the sport a
high quality BA and Paddle willl make a huge difference.

But what paddle? My sea paddle would set you back about =A3200 if you
went and bought one yourself. I like it a lot for sea touring, but it's
too long for whitewater use and the blades aren't up to the abuse of
bouncing off rocks. A polo player would probably have little use for
variable feather, and so on. A good paddle is indeed worth spending on,
but only when you know what "good" is /for your own situation/.

You are quite right . I made an assumption that a sea paddler is a
different bird than a white water paddler. I play in both but i believe
white water paddling , sea kayaking, open canoeing , single skull
rowing are all different sports. I play at all of them but the BA is
often the only peice of gear that moves from one to the other.
Armed with that information, ( will I paddle on the ocean, do I preffer
battering through white water or would I like just paddling on inland
water ways for short distances.
Each had a different set of tools.
Assured of where I want to paddle I can then go shopping for
appropriate gear.
I think a paddle is a pivotal piece of gear.

And it's also the case that a good paddle isn't /necessarily/ a lot of
money. A friend paddles his home made baidarka with a home made
traditional wooden paddle, basically a long stick with flattened ends.
Cost nothing but time, works very well, and it's easier to roll with
than my carbon fibre confection.

I made a Greenland paddle too. I like my Carbon Fiber confection.
I do agree about cost though . I bought a lovely used paddle some years
back, I can't get it back off my wife. It is the best paddle I have
ever used. This year I spent a lot of money on a bent shaft paddle (
the Scottish one ) It is my spare, Very disapointing.

I consider WW and Sea kayaking different sports. The only reason I ww
kayak is to speed up my bracing and rescue skills. Well that and
showing off seal launches and the likes. It is seasonal here while the
sea is always open some where.
Alex



Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

How Cold id cold?
Cold is what the Clyde is now . I swam in the Clyde and Gareloch as a
kid. At 10 years old that water was bitter.

Less than 25 Meters from a bank with the ability to get out is not bad.

Actually it does not even leave an argument, if you are reliably in
flat water, that is 20 + degrees and have a comfortable air temperature
you don't need any of this stuff. If you have a wind chill of - 20 as
posted earlier or any number of other safety issues a wet suit ( if
only a shorty ) is a good idea..
Alex

wrote:

I think a paddle is a pivotal piece of gear.

Indeed it is, but to be honest you can come a long way off "top of the
range" and still have a very capable bit of kit that will do everything
you ever need.

I made a Greenland paddle too. I like my Carbon Fiber confection.

And I like mine, but it doesn't have it 100% its own way despite being
an order of magnitude more expensive. For example, the Greenland paddle
is much better for inside leaned turns, because you can use it as a long
float.

ever used. This year I spent a lot of money on a bent shaft paddle (
the Scottish one ) It is my spare, Very disapointing.

I have a mod crank Lendal. I can take or leave the cranks and I
wouldn't bother with them if I had to replace the current shaft, but
friends I know with a lot of experience are very keen on them and find
they make a tangibly useful difference to wrist fatigue over a long day.
Personally I find that changing the feather and/or blades makes more
difference (I have Paddloks so can change the blades easily, I started
off with polypro Nordkapps and Archipelagos, found I preferred narrower,
got the Archs in carbon). Some people I know find cranks make their
wrist problems worse, so I would say try before you buy if at all
possible and also that you really need ones made for your own
thumb-thumb distance. If you buy a "standard" shaft off the shelf it's
entirely possible the cranks will be at the wrong distance apart, which
makes it worse than pointless.

I've used carbon Nimbus in a couple of the narrow flavours and they were
fine, but not obviously better or worse than my own Lendals.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ewan Scott wrote:

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.

with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first
started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts
for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally
good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up
paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like
paddling before they spend £50+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seals
that won't be much use for anything bar paddling.

Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a £15
wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most
kids
starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water.
The
psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends.

Agreed, but I think most people have something that will do as a
windbreaker, or can borrow something that will, without going off and
buying a paddling cag.

Not so I'm afraid. Most kids don't appear to have waterproof clothing
nowadays. Of the 50 something we have started out on One Star courses over
the past four years I think three have actually turned up with a waterproof/
windproof top. the rest have all had "shower proof" branded fashion tops. I
have a growing colection of old cags which we loan out - but it gets a bit
tiring washing the kit every time we go out. e still have three star
paddlers who haven't bought any kit yet. Perhaps the difference is that we
are not a kayak club, we are a Scout group that majors in kayaking (amongst
other activities), and parents won't fork out for what they see as a short
term activity. Sadly, that approach leaves some kids poorly prepared for the
colder weather.

If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have been
out
and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental
capsize
or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of
our
beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five
minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the following
hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant.

If you're in in 5 minutes then it's easy enough to get changed and dried
and start again without killing it for everyone. Being splashed when
you're wearing a windproof smock as against capsizing in a cotton T are
rather different things.

You obviously don't have the same set of problems we have :-)

We tell them arrive for 9:30, on the water by 10:00 at the latest.

We arrive at 9:15, offload the boats, and fit them all with kit. By 9:30 the
first couple have arrived. By 10:00 we are still short a couple. We put the
extra kit and boats back on the trailer, and head off to the water. 10:10,
the last two arrive, and we are back up to the trailer to offload the boats
and kit. So we don't actually get started till maybe 10:25.. At 10:30
someone in a tee shirt and shorts falls in, and needs to get changed. So I'm
back off the water up to the car and we wait another 10 minutes for them to
get changed....

I'd rather they came as well prepared as possible and we set off to do our
stuff, and only returned at the end of the session.

I'd tell them that if they are late then they go home, but that isn't the
way things seem to be done nowadays.


While ideally someone who's going to fall in will be better off in a
wettie than without unless it's a nice summer day (but why not start off
on a nice summer day if you have the choice?), that's not quite the same
as blow £100 on a paddler's wetsuit and cag before you start or you'll
have a crap time... Nobody's really suggested that's the case, but it
could certainly have been inferred.

We start outdoors training in April, the water is cold until late July,
stays warm till September and then gets cold again in October. With summer
holidays in mind that gives us about four weeks of warm water.

Experience tells us that the most important first purchase, and this is
probably different from what I said earlier - is some footweat. We do advise
basic old fashioned gym shoes for £1.99 a pair, which are disposable, buy
give protection against sharp stuff in the ground, and are compact in the
boat (as compared to trainers). They usually buy neoprene beach slippers or
wet suit boots because gym shoes aren't fashionable at all!

Then we advise a cag. Those who are keen tend to go out and buy a westsuit -
now that's where money can get wasted. Some buy cheap 2mm wetsuits that just
about work in summer. Better spend an extra 15 quid for a 3mm, for a
beginner. But what they buy is up to them.


Indeed, but the more comfortable we can make them the more likely they
are
to get into the sport.

This is true, but one also has an obligation not to waste people's
money. Paddling isn't for some people even if they do get all the gear
(I'm rather hoping that the "new black" status of sea paddling will mean
a rash of second hand hardly used and very nice boats in a couple of
years... ;-)) and I think in a lot of cases they would be better off in
make-dos for the first few sessions. And that's not necessarily a
problem: friends that have paddled for 3 or 4 years now still hire out
TSKC wetties, cags and BAs, and though I personally think they'd be
better off getting their own at this point it certainly hasn't put them
off! My cag is a semi-dry, I'll borrow a dry for surf if I can, but the
amount I do I can't justify the cost compared to stuff like, say, beer! ;-)

I'd agree that we don't want to waste peoples' money but on the other hand
we have a bunch of kids who, if they are going out to play football on the
street, have to have the latest Man U kit ( down here anyway). We used to
play in tee shirts and shorts, nowadays they have to have all the right kit.
Now this may be a self fulfilling prophesy, but the kids who buy some kit,
tend to be the ones who carry on with the activity. If they ask I'll not
put them off. The one thing I do put them off buying is a boat. A lot of
people are way too fashion conscious and will buy the flavour of the month
rather than a boat suitable for the paddling they are doing. My own lad
bought a Sub 6 - against my advice. I knew that he would be doing river
running and it was way too small (cue debate), two years down the line he is
egging for a bigger boat for river work and coaching. But some folks just
won't be told :-)

I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal
and
cag, of any sort were a better bet.

Right, here's one I think we can suggest for almost anyone: a good
wicking baselayer top! Keeps you as comfortable as you'll get and dries
out nice and quickly. Helly Lifa, Lowe Dryflo or similar. Highly
recommended!

I use a Salewa, thermal. Polyester, breathes and wicks, I can come out of
the water wet, and if I take my cag off it dries in minutes yet I stay warm.
So I think 100 per cent agreed on that.


when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods
(always
a possibility) I prefer my wet suit..

Though you'd probably prefer a dry suit. I can't justify one myself,
but for those spending a lot of time in the water they seem to be well
worth thinking about. I'll get one some day, probably when (not "if",
but "when") I win the lottery...

Yup, a dry suit is on the wish list. I just have this fear of wasting the
best part of £350 and getting it ripped on a thorn bush or something on the
first trip out. So far getting wet in the wetsuit hasn't really been an
issue. I did get hypothermic on one trip and my bodily functions shut down
for three days - that was pretty scary, but I doubt that a dry suit would
have made any difference that particular day.

Ewan Scott

I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my
wetsuit,
one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold
on
her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme

An eskimo rescue is specialist if you take a general view of paddling
the full spectrum of canoes and kayaks. There are plenty of boats where
you won't do one because the boats don't run with decks and you can't
brace yourself in. For such craft an eskimo rescue is esoteric and
overspecialised, and thus rather an extreme thing to learn.
In many boats if you go in then you'll swim. As long as you can swim
then there's not much issue with doing extra practice, and you're better
getting on with how not to swim...

Sounds like we are talking CCK 2 star here, and eskimo is , as I am sure you
know, part of the syllabus. We actually start teaching it from day one in
the pool as it helps with hip flicks. Amazing to see kids just starting out,
capsize, reach out and grab the nearest boat and flip themselves back up...

If CCK then, by definition, an eskimo rescue is always an option. HST, you'd
probably be very lucky to use it "textbook" fashion in anger, I suspect.

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

Sounds like we are talking CCK 2 star here, and eskimo is , as I am sure you
know, part of the syllabus.

I didn't, as it happens. I have a 3* but only did that as a formality
for a start towards the teaching ladder as TSKC is currently getting
swamped with new members depsite us trying to beat them off with a
****ty stick and we need more people who can do basic teaching. Beyond
that I'm very happy to learn skills but have very limited interest in
owning a piece of paper that tells me what I'm capable of doing.

We actually start teaching it from day one in
the pool as it helps with hip flicks.

So do we at TSKC, but the other paddling club I'm in, East of Scotland
Open Canoe, doesn't have much use for hip flicks... If you want to
stick to kayaks, I doubt a sprint K2 crew would find much use for them.
And so on.

If CCK then, by definition, an eskimo rescue is always an option. HST, you'd
probably be very lucky to use it "textbook" fashion in anger, I suspect.

Indeed. The chances of holding your breath long enough for someone to
get lined up on you in the sort of conditions that will knock you in are
pretty limited, I'd say. They certainly are useful as a quick get-out
having buggered up a controlled practice roll that doesn't then require
you to empty the boat and get back in it, and controlled roll practice
beyond the pool we always have a boat lined up for one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article , Peter Clinch
URL:mailto
Ewan Scott wrote:

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.

Fair comment, and we're down to semantics in a way. I always have a cag
with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first
started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts
for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally
good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up
paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like
paddling before they spend £50+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seals
that won't be much use for anything bar paddling.

....actually... I would find such a thing useless for paddling in!

Fine for sitting around in and posing, in mid-winter, maybe. But sitting
around in a boat in mid-winter is not canoeing, IMO.

Wear a (lightweight!) cag for the warm-up and remove it for the session.


[snipped daft ideas and sensible replies]


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of serious sea mammals

--

In article , Muzz
wrote:
Allan Bennett wrote:

Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for
kit for a beginner! None of you have stated that you are
recommending stuff for specialist and possibly extreme
forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you
advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also
restrictive and limits the enjoyment of paddling, IMO.

I am a beginner, doing my two star training, before getting in the boat we
must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also
recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess
what they were wearing ? I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with
the coaches recommendations. I done three eskimo recues last night and
felt nice and warm in my wetsuit, one of the girls wearing a pair of
shorts was complaining about the cold on her first tip over. Not too
specialist or extreme, I felt good enough to get out of the boat and swim
it to shore at the end of the session.

That is, of course, not canoeing.


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of blinkers

--

Allan Bennett wrote:
In article , Peter Clinch
URL:mailto

paddling before they spend =A350+ on a twin waisted cag with serious se=
als=20
that won't be much use for anything bar paddling.

...actually... I would find such a thing useless for paddling in!

The difference between commission and omission... nobody would have much =

use for a twin waisted whitewater cag except /some/ paddlers, /some/ of=20
the time... ;-)

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Snip

Beyond
that I'm very happy to learn skills but have very limited interest in
owning a piece of paper that tells me what I'm capable of doing.

Maybe that's a cue for a new thread... :-)

Ewan Scott