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  #21   Report Post  
Ewan Scott
 
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"Allan Bennett" wrote in message
...
In article , Charlie
wrote:
But why make yourself cold and wet when you can be warm and dry?


But I don't get cold because I wear the right kit for the conditions!

That's
why paddling on cold days in the /right/ kit is so enjoyable.

Seems bloody stupid to me! I love my dry cag, wouldn't want to learn

to
roll without it. I also get cold after 30mins on the sea even with dry

cag
and fleece, so I dunno where you're paddling!


Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for kit for a

beginner!
None of you have stated that you are recommending stuff for specialist and
possibly extreme forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you
advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also restrictive and limits

the
enjoyment of paddling, IMO.


In your opinion - fine. But the list is in order of preference for a
beginner.

The kit is not restrictive, it is not unnecessary and it need not be
expensive. Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
enjoyment of the activity.

Ewan Scott


  #22   Report Post  
Peter Clinch
 
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Ewan Scott wrote:

The kit is not restrictive


All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more
restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/
restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more
restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in
fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's
calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water.

it is not unnecessary


Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be
argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of
pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece
tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and
wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the
boat Just In Case.

and it need not be expensive.


But it will be more expensive than not having them.

Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
enjoyment of the activity.


But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get
appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a
typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days)
I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away
with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece
tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably
drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they
don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then
you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which
case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then
even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so
you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping
off cold water in appreciable quantities.

In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And
it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it
then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically
begin in benign conditions...

Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat
water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit
in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner"
doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my
advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the
particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has
been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game
in town. My first paddling was mostly inna fla****er touring stylee as
a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and
cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #23   Report Post  
Ewan Scott
 
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"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ewan Scott wrote:

The kit is not restrictive


All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more
restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/
restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more
restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in
fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's
calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water.


That is of course true. Spending most of my paddling time teaching I tend to
get A/ wet, and B/ spend more time than I should do observing rather than
paddling. In the past four years I think we have paddled in tee shirts and
shorts twice.


it is not unnecessary


Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be
argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of
pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece
tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and
wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the
boat Just In Case.


Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.


and it need not be expensive.


But it will be more expensive than not having them.


Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a £15
wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most kids
starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water. The
psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends.

Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
enjoyment of the activity.


But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get
appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a
typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days)
I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away
with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece
tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably
drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they
don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then
you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which
case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then
even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so
you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping
off cold water in appreciable quantities.


If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have been out
and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental capsize
or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of our
beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five
minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the following
hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant.

In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And
it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it
then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically
begin in benign conditions...


Indeed, but ithe more comfortable we can make them the more likely they are
to get into the sport.

Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat
water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit
in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner"
doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my
advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the
particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has
been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game
in town. My first paddling was mostly inna fla****er touring stylee as
a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and
cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck...


I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal and
cag, of any sort were a better bet. Still shorts on the bottom half. But now
when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (always
a possibility) I prefer my wet suit..

Ewan Scott





  #24   Report Post  
Keith Meredith
 
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"Keith Meredith" wrote in message
...
Hi

What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on?

Keith


Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
(apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.

Best wishes

Keith


  #25   Report Post  
Ewan Scott
 
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"Keith Meredith" wrote in message
...

"Keith Meredith" wrote in message
...
Hi

What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on?

Keith


Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
(apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.

Does a bottle of water count? Seriously, having water is more important to
me than having a hot drink ( I always have one with me but I frequently
don't touch it till we are back at the car.

Otherwise airbags in all the boats. It really gets on my tits when we are
teaching kids and we have lots of rescues to do, and they have to do them
too, and the boats don't have airbags- almost invariably kids tend to swamp
the boats and it is a sod to empty them. At one point I had two instructors
and seven kids, and I had two kids in the water at the same time and another
two looking like going over. They had swamped the boats, and I was taking
way longer than I should have to empty them. In the meantime the kids were
grabbing at my boat and there was a strong possibility that they were going
to put me over as well. Fortunately another coach arrived on scene and
emptied the other boat. So airbags all round.

Flat water coaching, whitewater.

Ewan Scott




  #26   Report Post  
Alan Adams
 
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In message
"Keith Meredith" wrote:


"Keith Meredith" wrote in message
...
Hi

What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on?

Keith


Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
(apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.


Waterproof digital camera. Discipline - whatever I'm doing at the time.


Best wishes

Keith



--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/
  #27   Report Post  
Peter Clinch
 
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Keith Meredith wrote:

Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
(apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.


We had a gear evening earlier in the year, where the club training
officer was going through useful things to take on a (sea kayak) trip.
She asked folk to bring along a favourite bit of kit, and say why it was
a fave.

The training officer's own stated fave was a roll of plastic bags,
reinforcing that in a weekend of sea paddling you typically spend more
time camping, preparing food, packing and unpacking than you do paddling.

Mine was a pair of wicking underpants, as they dry out faster than they
get wet, at least if you're not wearing a wet suit. Very big comfort
difference, and no need to change them when you get out.

A new chap, who'd been out and bought /everything/ (including a P&H
quest, before he'd even been kayaking), took a VHF radio that had an
interlock to his GPS. Compare and contrast with dry pants and a roll of
ziplock baggies! ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #28   Report Post  
Peter Clinch
 
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Ewan Scott wrote:

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, bu=

t
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.


Fair comment, and we're down to semantics in a way. I always have a cag =

with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first=20
started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts =

for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally=20
good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up=20
paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like=20
paddling before they spend =A350+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seal=
s=20
that won't be much use for anything bar paddling.

Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a =A3=

15
wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most =

kids
starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water.=

The
psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends=

=2E

Agreed, but I think most people have something that will do as a=20
windbreaker, or can borrow something that will, without going off and=20
buying a paddling cag.

If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have bee=

n out
and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental ca=

psize
or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of =

our
beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five
minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the followi=

ng
hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant.


If you're in in 5 minutes then it's easy enough to get changed and dried =

and start again without killing it for everyone. Being splashed when=20
you're wearing a windproof smock as against capsizing in a cotton T are=20
rather different things.
While ideally someone who's going to fall in will be better off in a=20
wettie than without unless it's a nice summer day (but why not start off =

on a nice summer day if you have the choice?), that's not quite the same =

as blow =A3100 on a paddler's wetsuit and cag before you start or you'll =

have a crap time... Nobody's really suggested that's the case, but it=20
could certainly have been inferred.

Indeed, but ithe more comfortable we can make them the more likely they=

are
to get into the sport.


This is true, but one also has an obligation not to waste people's=20
money. Paddling isn't for some people even if they do get all the gear=20
(I'm rather hoping that the "new black" status of sea paddling will mean =

a rash of second hand hardly used and very nice boats in a couple of=20
years... ;-)) and I think in a lot of cases they would be better off in=20
make-dos for the first few sessions. And that's not necessarily a=20
problem: friends that have paddled for 3 or 4 years now still hire out=20
TSKC wetties, cags and BAs, and though I personally think they'd be=20
better off getting their own at this point it certainly hasn't put them=20
off! My cag is a semi-dry, I'll borrow a dry for surf if I can, but the =

amount I do I can't justify the cost compared to stuff like, say, beer! ;=
-)

I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal =

and
cag, of any sort were a better bet.


Right, here's one I think we can suggest for almost anyone: a good=20
wicking baselayer top! Keeps you as comfortable as you'll get and dries =

out nice and quickly. Helly Lifa, Lowe Dryflo or similar. Highly=20
recommended!

when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (a=

lways
a possibility) I prefer my wet suit..


Though you'd probably prefer a dry suit. I can't justify one myself,=20
but for those spending a lot of time in the water they seem to be well=20
worth thinking about. I'll get one some day, probably when (not "if",=20
but "when") I win the lottery...

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #29   Report Post  
Muzz
 
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Allan Bennett wrote:

Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for
kit for a beginner! None of you have stated that you are
recommending stuff for specialist and possibly extreme
forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you
advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also
restrictive and limits the enjoyment of paddling, IMO.


I am a beginner, doing my two star training, before getting in the boat we
must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also
recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess what
they were wearing ?
I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with the coaches
recommendations.
I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit,
one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on
her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme, I felt good enough to get
out of the boat and swim it to shore at the end of the session.
--
Muzz
send mail to


  #30   Report Post  
Peter Clinch
 
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Muzz wrote:

I am a beginner, doing my two star training


Define "beginner"... it would be fair to take it to mean "has never
been in a boat before", or just two or three times. Rather lower than
prospective 2* in terms of experience.

before getting in the boat we
must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also
recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess what
they were wearing ?


But what sort of paddling and in what conditions? We never put helmets
on people for pool sessions and typical touring paddling, they're not
really any use and just make it hard to hear what's going on while
reducing comfort (and consequently enjoyment). In white water and surf
it's a very different matter, you'd probably be daft not to, but that's
not the only way to go paddling.
BA I always wear, but lots of people in my club just borrow one form the
club, so they don't need one themselves. Same for a wetsuit and cag,
though most people wear them because they assume they're better off in
them because they're there... and when we're out on the water I'm far
more comfy in fleece tights and shirt than they are in their "proper
paddling kit" of wet suit and cag.

But in any event, your coaches have put all this stuff out, why do you
need to go and buy it yourself right away? Surely you'd be better
getting experience before you decide what to spend your funds on so you
can make an informed choice on what *you* need rather than what I think
you might?

I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with the coaches
recommendations.


Though there's more to a coach's recommendations than what is what
you'll reasonably get away with. If they have access to a load of
safety kit to loan out (check!) and they live in an increasingly
litigious society (check!) that tends to be preoccupied with Having All
The Right Stuff (check!) then it's hardly surprising they get people to
wear it. And we're back to particular discipline of paddling. AB is a
coach, but flat water marathon and sprint IIRC, which has no need for
helmets or wetsuits and little use for cags beyond windbreakers.

I recently did cycle leader training. We were told we should always
wear cycle helmets to be "good role models". I pointed out there is no
good evidence that cycle helmets make any useful difference to serious
injuries on the roads (don't believe that? look at
www.cyclehelmets.org), and I prefer to be a good role model by showing
you can ride a bike without recourse to unnecessary and ultimately
unhelpful accessories that put many people off what is often seen as far
more dangerous than it really is, so I'll be wearing my cotton cycling
cap when I'm out teaching tonight. Cycling isn't the only area that
suffers from a preoccupation with supposing safety gear aimed at far
different situations must be a benefit anywhere else it can be deployed.

I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit,
one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on
her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme


An eskimo rescue is specialist if you take a general view of paddling
the full spectrum of canoes and kayaks. There are plenty of boats where
you won't do one because the boats don't run with decks and you can't
brace yourself in. For such craft an eskimo rescue is esoteric and
overspecialised, and thus rather an extreme thing to learn.
In many boats if you go in then you'll swim. As long as you can swim
then there's not much issue with doing extra practice, and you're better
getting on with how not to swim...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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