In article , Charlie
wrote:
But why make yourself cold and wet when you can be warm and dry?

But I don't get cold because I wear the right kit for the conditions! That's
why paddling on cold days in the /right/ kit is so enjoyable.

Seems bloody stupid to me! I love my dry cag, wouldn't want to learn to
roll without it. I also get cold after 30mins on the sea even with dry cag
and fleece, so I dunno where you're paddling!

Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for kit for a beginner!
None of you have stated that you are recommending stuff for specialist and
possibly extreme forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you
advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also restrictive and limits the
enjoyment of paddling, IMO.


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of arctic rolls


--

Last month I plucked three people out of the water. Now I am in the
North Atlantic with the Labrador Current keeping the water below 10 C
all year around.
Two of the folks that went over were in a double and had no idea what
they were up to. They were wearing jeans and T shirts. They were less
than comfortable with the man in a pure panic from the shock of cold
water. The lady was pretty calm.
The other rescue was a beginner but he had read that the water was
cold. He wore a wet suit ( 2 MM) and for him it was little more than an
embaracement and was uncomfortable. He was back in the boat quickly
because of his ability to listen, an idea how to do this in the first
place and the dread of cold water and shock of imersion was mitigated
by a wet suit.
In 1999 the finest paddler I have ever met, stated. " I don't swim " he
was leading a large tour of mostly beginners in May. We were in a
remote area ( compatitively ) and a nasty wind rolled in. Of the 35 or
so people about half ended up in the water.
At one point Jimbo was helping stabalize a speed boat by hanging on tt
the gunnels on one side as a casualty was hauled aboard. A wave picked
the speed boat up and planted it on top of Jimbo turning his boat
upside down ( luckily ): Jimbo swam.
He was in neoprene shorts. Jimbo went from leader, guide, rescuer
streight to casualty sucking up rescue energies.
Had he a wet suit or ( like me ) a dry suit he would have been back in
the fight imediately.
If the water is at all cold , wear neoprene.
My experiences are in water that is normally cold. The ponds and lakes
here rarely excede 17 C . If the water is over 20 C ignore this..
Thanks
Alex
The Names of the casualties have been omited or changed. In Jimbos case
only slightly.
As he remains the finest paddler I have ever met I can say that knowing
it will gain a laugh even here in Newfoundland.

wrote:
Last month I plucked three people out of the water. Now I am in the
North Atlantic with the Labrador Current keeping the water below 10 C
all year around.

Thobut you'll have trouble finding anything that cold in the UK (and=20
while anyone is welcome to visit here the context would appear to me to=20
be the UK) unless you're out in a river in the depths of winter. That=20
pretty much rules out beginners unless they're masochists with it.

If the water is at all cold , wear neoprene.

How cold is cold?

And you must also factor in the degree to which dressing for the swim=20
will affect your primary paddling. The current Knoydart catalogue=20
suggests you always dress for the swinm, and that a Goretex drysuit=20
(which they happen to sell for mucho =A3=A3=A3s) is always ideal as you c=
an=20
layer underneath to suit. If it's a hot day (in Scotland that will mean =

a wee bit over 20 C (unlikely to get as far as 25) ambient but direct=20
sunshine and no respite from it, the water will be several degrees=20
cooler) then I'll be steaming in a BA and sun cream, so bugger putting=20
on a drysuit or wetsuit unless I want to expire from heat exhaustion.=20
If I can get out of the water in a reasonable time then I'll warm up=20
very quickly.

And in many cases a swim isn't going to be a real problem. Offshore in=20
the N. Atlantic with a cold current thrown in, absolutely, but a flat=20
river less than 25m from bank to bank, rather less so... You need=20
context to make lists of necessary equipment mean much.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

How Cold id cold?
Cold is what the Clyde is now . I swam in the Clyde and Gareloch as a
kid. At 10 years old that water was bitter.

Less than 25 Meters from a bank with the ability to get out is not bad.

Actually it does not even leave an argument, if you are reliably in
flat water, that is 20 + degrees and have a comfortable air temperature
you don't need any of this stuff. If you have a wind chill of - 20 as
posted earlier or any number of other safety issues a wet suit ( if
only a shorty ) is a good idea..
Alex

"Allan Bennett" wrote in message
...
In article , Charlie
wrote:
But why make yourself cold and wet when you can be warm and dry?

But I don't get cold because I wear the right kit for the conditions!
That's
why paddling on cold days in the /right/ kit is so enjoyable.

Seems bloody stupid to me! I love my dry cag, wouldn't want to learn
to
roll without it. I also get cold after 30mins on the sea even with dry
cag
and fleece, so I dunno where you're paddling!

Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for kit for a
beginner!
None of you have stated that you are recommending stuff for specialist and
possibly extreme forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you
advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also restrictive and limits
the
enjoyment of paddling, IMO.


In your opinion - fine. But the list is in order of preference for a
beginner.

The kit is not restrictive, it is not unnecessary and it need not be
expensive. Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
enjoyment of the activity.

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

The kit is not restrictive

All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more
restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/
restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more
restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in
fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's
calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water.

it is not unnecessary

Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be
argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of
pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece
tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and
wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the
boat Just In Case.

and it need not be expensive.

But it will be more expensive than not having them.

Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
enjoyment of the activity.

But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get
appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a
typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days)
I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away
with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece
tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably
drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they
don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then
you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which
case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then
even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so
you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping
off cold water in appreciable quantities.

In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And
it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it
then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically
begin in benign conditions...

Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat
water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit
in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner"
doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my
advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the
particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has
been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game
in town. My first paddling was mostly inna fla****er touring stylee as
a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and
cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ewan Scott wrote:

The kit is not restrictive

All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more
restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/
restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more
restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in
fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's
calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water.

That is of course true. Spending most of my paddling time teaching I tend to
get A/ wet, and B/ spend more time than I should do observing rather than
paddling. In the past four years I think we have paddled in tee shirts and
shorts twice.


it is not unnecessary

Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be
argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of
pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece
tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and
wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the
boat Just In Case.

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.


and it need not be expensive.

But it will be more expensive than not having them.

Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a £15
wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most kids
starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water. The
psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends.

Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
enjoyment of the activity.

But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get
appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a
typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days)
I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away
with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece
tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably
drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they
don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then
you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which
case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then
even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so
you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping
off cold water in appreciable quantities.

If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have been out
and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental capsize
or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of our
beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five
minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the following
hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant.

In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And
it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it
then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically
begin in benign conditions...

Indeed, but ithe more comfortable we can make them the more likely they are
to get into the sport.

Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat
water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit
in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner"
doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my
advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the
particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has
been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game
in town. My first paddling was mostly inna fla****er touring stylee as
a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and
cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck...

I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal and
cag, of any sort were a better bet. Still shorts on the bottom half. But now
when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (always
a possibility) I prefer my wet suit..

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, bu=
t
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.

Fair comment, and we're down to semantics in a way. I always have a cag =

with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first=20
started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts =

for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally=20
good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up=20
paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like=20
paddling before they spend =A350+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seal=
s=20
that won't be much use for anything bar paddling.

Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a =A3=
15
wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most =
kids
starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water.=
The
psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends=
=2E

Agreed, but I think most people have something that will do as a=20
windbreaker, or can borrow something that will, without going off and=20
buying a paddling cag.

If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have bee=
n out
and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental ca=
psize
or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of =
our
beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five
minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the followi=
ng
hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant.

If you're in in 5 minutes then it's easy enough to get changed and dried =

and start again without killing it for everyone. Being splashed when=20
you're wearing a windproof smock as against capsizing in a cotton T are=20
rather different things.
While ideally someone who's going to fall in will be better off in a=20
wettie than without unless it's a nice summer day (but why not start off =

on a nice summer day if you have the choice?), that's not quite the same =

as blow =A3100 on a paddler's wetsuit and cag before you start or you'll =

have a crap time... Nobody's really suggested that's the case, but it=20
could certainly have been inferred.

Indeed, but ithe more comfortable we can make them the more likely they=
are
to get into the sport.

This is true, but one also has an obligation not to waste people's=20
money. Paddling isn't for some people even if they do get all the gear=20
(I'm rather hoping that the "new black" status of sea paddling will mean =

a rash of second hand hardly used and very nice boats in a couple of=20
years... ;-)) and I think in a lot of cases they would be better off in=20
make-dos for the first few sessions. And that's not necessarily a=20
problem: friends that have paddled for 3 or 4 years now still hire out=20
TSKC wetties, cags and BAs, and though I personally think they'd be=20
better off getting their own at this point it certainly hasn't put them=20
off! My cag is a semi-dry, I'll borrow a dry for surf if I can, but the =

amount I do I can't justify the cost compared to stuff like, say, beer! ;=
-)

I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal =
and
cag, of any sort were a better bet.

Right, here's one I think we can suggest for almost anyone: a good=20
wicking baselayer top! Keeps you as comfortable as you'll get and dries =

out nice and quickly. Helly Lifa, Lowe Dryflo or similar. Highly=20
recommended!

when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (a=
lways
a possibility) I prefer my wet suit..

Though you'd probably prefer a dry suit. I can't justify one myself,=20
but for those spending a lot of time in the water they seem to be well=20
worth thinking about. I'll get one some day, probably when (not "if",=20
but "when") I win the lottery...

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ewan Scott wrote:

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.

with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first
started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts
for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally
good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up
paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like
paddling before they spend £50+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seals
that won't be much use for anything bar paddling.

Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a £15
wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most
kids
starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water.
The
psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends.

Agreed, but I think most people have something that will do as a
windbreaker, or can borrow something that will, without going off and
buying a paddling cag.

Not so I'm afraid. Most kids don't appear to have waterproof clothing
nowadays. Of the 50 something we have started out on One Star courses over
the past four years I think three have actually turned up with a waterproof/
windproof top. the rest have all had "shower proof" branded fashion tops. I
have a growing colection of old cags which we loan out - but it gets a bit
tiring washing the kit every time we go out. e still have three star
paddlers who haven't bought any kit yet. Perhaps the difference is that we
are not a kayak club, we are a Scout group that majors in kayaking (amongst
other activities), and parents won't fork out for what they see as a short
term activity. Sadly, that approach leaves some kids poorly prepared for the
colder weather.

If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have been
out
and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental
capsize
or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of
our
beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five
minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the following
hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant.

If you're in in 5 minutes then it's easy enough to get changed and dried
and start again without killing it for everyone. Being splashed when
you're wearing a windproof smock as against capsizing in a cotton T are
rather different things.

You obviously don't have the same set of problems we have :-)

We tell them arrive for 9:30, on the water by 10:00 at the latest.

We arrive at 9:15, offload the boats, and fit them all with kit. By 9:30 the
first couple have arrived. By 10:00 we are still short a couple. We put the
extra kit and boats back on the trailer, and head off to the water. 10:10,
the last two arrive, and we are back up to the trailer to offload the boats
and kit. So we don't actually get started till maybe 10:25.. At 10:30
someone in a tee shirt and shorts falls in, and needs to get changed. So I'm
back off the water up to the car and we wait another 10 minutes for them to
get changed....

I'd rather they came as well prepared as possible and we set off to do our
stuff, and only returned at the end of the session.

I'd tell them that if they are late then they go home, but that isn't the
way things seem to be done nowadays.


While ideally someone who's going to fall in will be better off in a
wettie than without unless it's a nice summer day (but why not start off
on a nice summer day if you have the choice?), that's not quite the same
as blow £100 on a paddler's wetsuit and cag before you start or you'll
have a crap time... Nobody's really suggested that's the case, but it
could certainly have been inferred.

We start outdoors training in April, the water is cold until late July,
stays warm till September and then gets cold again in October. With summer
holidays in mind that gives us about four weeks of warm water.

Experience tells us that the most important first purchase, and this is
probably different from what I said earlier - is some footweat. We do advise
basic old fashioned gym shoes for £1.99 a pair, which are disposable, buy
give protection against sharp stuff in the ground, and are compact in the
boat (as compared to trainers). They usually buy neoprene beach slippers or
wet suit boots because gym shoes aren't fashionable at all!

Then we advise a cag. Those who are keen tend to go out and buy a westsuit -
now that's where money can get wasted. Some buy cheap 2mm wetsuits that just
about work in summer. Better spend an extra 15 quid for a 3mm, for a
beginner. But what they buy is up to them.


Indeed, but the more comfortable we can make them the more likely they
are
to get into the sport.

This is true, but one also has an obligation not to waste people's
money. Paddling isn't for some people even if they do get all the gear
(I'm rather hoping that the "new black" status of sea paddling will mean
a rash of second hand hardly used and very nice boats in a couple of
years... ;-)) and I think in a lot of cases they would be better off in
make-dos for the first few sessions. And that's not necessarily a
problem: friends that have paddled for 3 or 4 years now still hire out
TSKC wetties, cags and BAs, and though I personally think they'd be
better off getting their own at this point it certainly hasn't put them
off! My cag is a semi-dry, I'll borrow a dry for surf if I can, but the
amount I do I can't justify the cost compared to stuff like, say, beer! ;-)

I'd agree that we don't want to waste peoples' money but on the other hand
we have a bunch of kids who, if they are going out to play football on the
street, have to have the latest Man U kit ( down here anyway). We used to
play in tee shirts and shorts, nowadays they have to have all the right kit.
Now this may be a self fulfilling prophesy, but the kids who buy some kit,
tend to be the ones who carry on with the activity. If they ask I'll not
put them off. The one thing I do put them off buying is a boat. A lot of
people are way too fashion conscious and will buy the flavour of the month
rather than a boat suitable for the paddling they are doing. My own lad
bought a Sub 6 - against my advice. I knew that he would be doing river
running and it was way too small (cue debate), two years down the line he is
egging for a bigger boat for river work and coaching. But some folks just
won't be told :-)

I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal
and
cag, of any sort were a better bet.

Right, here's one I think we can suggest for almost anyone: a good
wicking baselayer top! Keeps you as comfortable as you'll get and dries
out nice and quickly. Helly Lifa, Lowe Dryflo or similar. Highly
recommended!

I use a Salewa, thermal. Polyester, breathes and wicks, I can come out of
the water wet, and if I take my cag off it dries in minutes yet I stay warm.
So I think 100 per cent agreed on that.


when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods
(always
a possibility) I prefer my wet suit..

Though you'd probably prefer a dry suit. I can't justify one myself,
but for those spending a lot of time in the water they seem to be well
worth thinking about. I'll get one some day, probably when (not "if",
but "when") I win the lottery...

Yup, a dry suit is on the wish list. I just have this fear of wasting the
best part of £350 and getting it ripped on a thorn bush or something on the
first trip out. So far getting wet in the wetsuit hasn't really been an
issue. I did get hypothermic on one trip and my bodily functions shut down
for three days - that was pretty scary, but I doubt that a dry suit would
have made any difference that particular day.

Ewan Scott

In article , Peter Clinch
URL:mailto
Ewan Scott wrote:

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.

Fair comment, and we're down to semantics in a way. I always have a cag
with me, but having said that I always had a cag with me when I first
started. It was the Peter Storm pullover smock I had in the cubs/scouts
for keeping the rain off and just about everyone has something equally
good (well, just about everyone who's going to want to take up
paddling...) they can use to keep the worst off and see if they like
paddling before they spend £50+ on a twin waisted cag with serious seals
that won't be much use for anything bar paddling.

....actually... I would find such a thing useless for paddling in!

Fine for sitting around in and posing, in mid-winter, maybe. But sitting
around in a boat in mid-winter is not canoeing, IMO.

Wear a (lightweight!) cag for the warm-up and remove it for the session.


[snipped daft ideas and sensible replies]


Allan Bennett
Not a fan of serious sea mammals

--