"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
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"David Kemper" wrote in message
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"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
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"elyob" wrote in message
. ..


much snippage, apologies to those who can't follow.

For camping trips on a river like the Thames either a touring kayak
or a
marathon racing kayak of the more stable variety would be ideally
suited. A sea kayak would be almost as good but heavier to portage.
Slow
flowing rivers with long stretches of relatively flat water are not
the
place to use short low volume play boats. A Canadian canoe is much
slower especially paddled solo. Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry. I
find
my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

No real disagreement, I do mention Sea Kayaks and tourers later. For a
beginner I don't think a marathon boat is ideal ( personal opinion
though)

I also wouldn't recommend a very unstable (but much faster) marathon
boat.
A beginners marathon boat is not much different from a touring boat.
Long smooth skinned boats will always be quicker than short rough
skinned boats. Narrower boats are faster too but only for someone with
the skill and balance to stay upright in them. A beginner will need to
practice in stable boats until they become more experienced and can
handle a less stable kayak.


The point I was making is that most GRP boats are going to be a bit
long in
the tooth, esp the ones advertised for £15 - £50 on ebay. I know I've
sold
some. I've also destryed a couple.

A canoe club will have a variety of boats a beginner can borrow while
training. Once the beginner finds the most comfortable boat for them,
they can buy their own similar boat. Once in the racing community there
are always second hand boats available for sale. The club notice boards
usually have a choice of several.
You don't get much for £50 though.

On old GRP osmotic leakage is a problem.
OPkay, so in a kayak it might not be so noticeable as you tend to ship
some
water anyway. I'd also agree that a longer narrower boat is easier to
paddle
in a straight line and they are faster. I did mention the Corsica,
although
they are never going to be as fast as a kirton K1 - are they? But can
you
get gear into a K1?

I have done. I took a Discovery beginners marathon kayak down the Severn
from Welshpool loaded with camping gear. This involved small rapids and
shooting a weir under one of the road bridges. I thought I was in
trouble at one of the rapids as I was so heavily laden I got stuck on
the bottom and had to pull myself along by hand. I managed to get the
front stuck while the back was still in the current and ended up
sideways on to the flow. I did manage not to fall out and recovered by
going backwards for a short distance, totally out of control. Going
backwards in a boat with a rudder is not to be recommended in shallow
water as the overstern rudder is hinged to lift if bottoming, but the
hinge only works if you are going forwards.


Elyob is planning a specialised type of paddling so a specialist
boat
fits the requirement. Paddling a short plastic boat long distances
could
put him off paddling all together.

Totally agree, don't see where I suggested a short plastic boat.

Oh sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I also have a Master plastic boat but I
wouldn't want to go very far in it on flat water.



What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of
beginners
tour?

It can be uncomfortable when you start to learn to paddle. Marathon
paddlers routinely paddle long distances without experiencing
discomfort.

This one didn't :-(

:-) Maybe you weren't doing it right? Some expert coaching may have
helped your technique and posture.

Knee braces? Seat back? No such things in a marathon boat! Marathon
boats
are more unstable when not moving.

Here we do disagree, If doing a trip with kit, and are a beginner, I'm
not
sure that a marathon boat is the best option.

Not any marathon boat but a stable beginners marathon boat would be very
suitable. DW has been suggested as an aim so starting off by learning in
a marathon boat is very good ground work, and has to be better than
starting off in less suitable boats.



What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


I normally train over 4 miles per session on the canal. No canal
boat
has any chance of keeping up, and certainly will not be able to pass
me
unless I choose to stop.

True, a marathon boat will outrun a canal boat, but in general...

Marathon = long distance which is what paddling & camping on the Thames
will entail. No point in making it harder by paddling an old tub.


(It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate
than
the
flow of the river.)

But this bit is nonsense! Why would you go slower than the flow of
the
river? If you did no paddling you would move at the same speed as
the
flow. You are part of the flow. As soon as you start paddling
downstream, common sense tells you that you must be moving faster
than
the flow!

Not nonsense. We can sit in the flow of a stream and watch smaller
bits of
driftwood float past us. The drag of the hull in the water can make us
slower than the flow of the river.

Er, what is the hull dragging on? Think about it. We aren't talking
about very shallow water. The only thing I can see that might cause that
effect to be seen is windage.


How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

I know I couldn't given my present level of fitness but many other
paddlers paddle far more on DW.

You are equating yourself, an obviously knowledgable and experience
marathon
paddler with a complete beginner.

No I'm not, I'm actually very unfit as I've not been paddling much
lately. I went only 2 miles on the canal last night and was feeling
quite tired by it. I need to paddle more often to rebuild my stamina &
fitness and to improve my paddling technique. I can talk about it, but
I'm not really very good at actually doing it! I'm trying to present a
novice with what is possible given some training and some practice. Most
of what I know is from knowledge gained second hand as one of my sons
raced for Great Britain and has paddled DW, including finishing the
course when DW was cancelled one year. He also won the Gudena long
distance race in Denmark. Experience and knowledge are gained through
practice and are also added to by observation. I've been on support
duties for DW several times.

Unless he is exceedingly fit he will feel
the pain at the end of the first day - esp travelling upstream.

Very true, but just like any other new form of exercise.

And obviously not a fan of smaller boats :-)

Not actually true either as some of the most enjoyable racing I have
done was in Wombats on the river Trent. I'm fairly large (bloater might
be more acurate) and cannot enter a Wombat cockpit without turning
sideways to get my hips past the cockpit rim. The Wombat sits so low
that a spraydeck is essential to prevent swamping. Races were over about
250 metres. The wash generated by these little boats is unbelievable!
Small boats are ideal for some things, long distances just aren't one of
those things.


Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you are
being blown backwards by the wind.

David Kemper
Not a fan of unsuitable kit.