Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Bother? What "bother" is that then? This is Scotland we're talking about and
we don't have an access problem!

Loch Lubnaig and Loch Ard. Loch Tay and Loch Earn. No probs there.

Pop across to Perth and do the Tay from Stanley to Thistlebrigg. Minor probs
at Stanley but you'll be within your legal rights.

If the Leny is low, its relativly gentle (ex the Falls of course). The Teith
from Callander down to the take out which is by the Quarry entrance and just
below the last rapids would also fit your criteria very well.

Dumfries - paddle Loch Ken. Also consider the Nith - especially the
Drumlanrig Bridge to Thornhill section or on to the bridge at Auldgirth. If
you want to play on the Caul at Dumfries you'll find DKC there most Tuesdays
about 6.30ish.

Border Esk is gentle-ish - one nasty droppy bit.

Have fun - Mike.


Ewan Scott wrote in message
om...
Going home to Callander and later to Dumfries next week. I'd intended
taking boats with us and doing some paddling but after checking out
the access pages on the Scotish Canoe Union site it looks like an
awful lot of bother.

We might well do some on Loch Lubnaig, but wouldn't mind trying some
gentler stretches of river Grade 1/2, or somewhere where we could
play about below falls in relative safety. ie running the Leny is not
an option.

Ewan Scott

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Bother ?

Your avin a larf!

As for the lenny at the moment, your being a real joker.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Mike Buckley wrote:

Pop across to Perth and do the Tay from Stanley to Thistlebrigg. Minor probs
at Stanley but you'll be within your legal rights.

But why not go from Islamouth? no probs at all with access from the
field by the bridge at the bottom of the Meikleour Beech Hedge (it's
okay to park there, just close the gate), and it makes it an actual trip
rather than a brief hack...

You'll need to set up a road-ferry, of course, but it's in reasonable
cycle range if you don't have two cars between you.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Broooz wrote in message
...
-
Likewise I would probably steer clear of the Nith depending on your
experience as there are grade 3 stretches there - - - -

Indeed. Above Drumlanrig Bridge. The lower sections are a flat touring run.

Mike.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Broooz" wrote in message ...
"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...
If the Leny is low, its relativly gentle (ex the Falls of course).

I agree with most of Mike's suggestions but steer clear of Leny as there are
stretches of grade 3 and 4. If you are very experienced you can avoid these
but my interpretation of what you have said suggests more caution so I would
avoid the river if you are interested in grade 1-2. If you are fairly
confident then the Leny below the falls is OK and that runs into Callander.
The Teith just below the Leny is your best bet in that area although it can
be hard work at low levels - this is an excellent river for introducing
people to whitewater. Watch the take-out for theft in cars - best to leave
all valuables at Callander.

The Teith sounds the best bet. I wouldn't dream of tackling the Leny
anyway. We are looking for more of a gentle paddle than a real
whitewater experience.


Likewise I would probably steer clear of the Nith depending on your
experience as there are grade 3 stretches there although it is a very nice
river. I am not sure about the Border Esk but I thought it needed a lot
more rain than we've had.

If were in Dumfries on Tuesday we would probably go play in the Caul
where there were others around to help us out if we got in trouble.


Other stretches of water worth considering are the Tweed (several good
introductory sections with grade 1-2)and also the Tay below where Mike
mentioned from Thistlebrigg down to Perth (mostly grade 1). Whitewater
enthusiasts probably have never done this.

Thanks for the comment.

Ewan Scott

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Hmmm - I've paddled the Leny many times over many years and NEVER had any
problems. Likewise Loch Lubnaig - although there I did once have a
discussion with a "keeper" type who attempted to stop me paddling. Being
both aware of my legal rights and fairly forthright in dealing with
officialdom, I paddled that day and have done so since.

However, as you clearly have a depth of greater knowledge and
more-up-to-date understanding of the specific area (its maybe 6 months since
I was on the Leny), can you share. That would be most helpful and I'm sure
that Ewan would find it helpful.

Many thanks.


LittleBoyLuke wrote in message
...
Bother ?

Your avin a larf!

As for the lenny at the moment, your being a real joker.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

The Teith sounds the best bet. I wouldn't dream of tackling the Leny
anyway. We are looking for more of a gentle paddle than a real
whitewater experience.

Teith is very pretty - launch at the car park in town. Your only problem
will be the amount of time spent punting off the bottom. Paddle Loch Ard as
well - lovely way to spend an afternoon / evening.


If were in Dumfries on Tuesday we would probably go play in the Caul
where there were others around to help us out if we got in trouble.

Launch upstream a bit and you'll have a nice wee paddle down to the Caul.
Run it by the fish ladder - no probs. Were I not constrained by having an
exam that evening, I'd come and say hi.

Other stretches of water worth considering are the Tweed (several good
introductory sections with grade 1-2)and also the Tay below where Mike
mentioned from Thistlebrigg down to Perth (mostly grade 1). Whitewater
enthusiasts probably have never done this.

Thanks for the comment.

If you want to drift along serenely, that section of Tay has much to
recommend it. Launch at Thistlebrigg - take out at North Inch in Perth,
above the first bridge (the one to Bridgend).

Mike.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...
Hmmm - I've paddled the Leny many times over many years and NEVER had any
problems.

I take your point Mike but I think you may well have the experience to avoid
the difficulties. You also know when it is too high to be safe - the Leny
rises fairly quickly if there is heavy rainfall. But as a river to
recommend to someone who is looking for a grade I or II this must be a
complete no. It is possible to die on the falls if you miss the take out
beforehand. So definitely not for someone on their first trip without an
experienced guide and for me that means at least with the ability if not the
qualification of level 4 coach.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Crikey Mike, you start off with a very well reasoned post and then chuck
in the Leny!

I've done the Leny fairly low and it's helluva rocky, with the water
levels we have now I doubt if there would be what I would even consider
a river. Even if it was barely trickling it's going to be harder than
grade 1/2, but for the main I just wouldn't even consider it unless it
rains, when it is definitely harder (I'm being realistic about what I
consider an easy fun run here).

To be honest I can't think of much that would suit you, the Tay
obviously has plenty of stretches (Grandtully might just be too much for
you but all the rest should be fine at summer levels) And the only place
where access is at all contested is at Stanley, and I've only ever met
the protagonist once in all my trips there, and even then he doesn't
have a right to prevent you getting on, and as has been stated there are
alternative get ons if you want a longer trip. I don't know what
gear/experience you have but Grantully is usually busy through the
summer and if there isn't a race on you might feel safe enough playing
on it and getting tips from other people - only problem may be that not
all slalom paddlers have a high tolerance of people learning to paddle
where they are training :-(

I've only done the Teith quite high and I found it tedious, (OK it''s
not my style of river but...) I would think it would be a bump and
scrape nightmare at summer levels - but I don't know.

There must be some paddling on the Forth but I've only ever heard of one
ill-planned trip where the stretch turned out to be considerably further
than expected, that was a scout trip I think so if you plan a decent
length section it should be alright :-)

Other than those I don't think there are any rivers worth doing near
Callander, although there are of course plenty of Lochs.

Personally I'd bring mountain bikes and go exploring the Trossachs / QE
Forest etc. Don't bother asking for information about trails, they only
tell you about fire roads (which are boring), for singletrack just take
a map, compass and a healthy respect for any walkers you meet and do it.
It's kind of a shame that the Forestry people haven't developed some
decent singletrack in the Trossachs, many other forests have well
developed routes but apart from Glentress the Trossachs seems to have
the most mountain bikers, and the least routes!

I reckon Mike's covered Dumfries pretty well, except to say that sea
touring on the Solway Firth seems pretty good if you have suitable boats
/ weather - I don't know if you have the experience for that? Of course
I can't believe the lower Nith will have any water (except very close to
Dumfries), the gorge may have enough water but that's not the
recommended bit :-)

Good luck

JIM

Mike Buckley wrote:

Bother? What "bother" is that then? This is Scotland we're talking about and
we don't have an access problem!

Loch Lubnaig and Loch Ard. Loch Tay and Loch Earn. No probs there.

Pop across to Perth and do the Tay from Stanley to Thistlebrigg. Minor probs
at Stanley but you'll be within your legal rights.

If the Leny is low, its relativly gentle (ex the Falls of course). The Teith
from Callander down to the take out which is by the Quarry entrance and just
below the last rapids would also fit your criteria very well.

Dumfries - paddle Loch Ken. Also consider the Nith - especially the
Drumlanrig Bridge to Thornhill section or on to the bridge at Auldgirth. If
you want to play on the Caul at Dumfries you'll find DKC there most Tuesdays
about 6.30ish.

Border Esk is gentle-ish - one nasty droppy bit.

Have fun - Mike.


Ewan Scott wrote in message
om...

Going home to Callander and later to Dumfries next week. I'd intended
taking boats with us and doing some paddling but after checking out
the access pages on the Scotish Canoe Union site it looks like an
awful lot of bother.

We might well do some on Loch Lubnaig, but wouldn't mind trying some
gentler stretches of river Grade 1/2, or somewhere where we could
play about below falls in relative safety. ie running the Leny is not
an option.

Ewan Scott

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Broooz wrote in message
...
"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...
Hmmm - I've paddled the Leny many times over many years and NEVER had
any
problems.

I take your point Mike but I think you may well have the experience to
avoid
the difficulties. You also know when it is too high to be safe - the Leny
rises fairly quickly if there is heavy rainfall. But as a river to
recommend to someone who is looking for a grade I or II this must be a
complete no. It is possible to die on the falls if you miss the take out
beforehand. So definitely not for someone on their first trip without an
experienced guide and for me that means at least with the ability if not
the
qualification of level 4 coach.


Hmmm - I wonder if the plot / context isn't being lost here! LBL replied (in
perhaps a less than constructive fashion) to the ACCESS discussion in tones
that could be interpreted as being indicative of there being a problme with
ACCESS on the Leny "at the moment".

Now maybe there is, maybe not. In any case, "paddling" the Leny "without
(access) problems" - which I have - I am not aware of any access problems,
unless things have changed in the last few months - is different to paddling
the Leny and needing to be aware of its inherent risks.

However, in low water, *below* the Falls, I would suggest that any resonably
competent paddler with some moving water experience will have no difficulty
whatsover, normal "rules" regarding commonsense and an appreciation of ones
own ability taken into account of course. It'll be a bumpy scrape, but a
pretty one. The Teith will be a very bumpy scrape but a very pretty one.

Paddling *above* the Falls on the Leny is certainly not something to suggest
to anyone, especially anyone uncertain of their own abilitites and lacking
knowledge of the river. The consequences of getting it wrong above the Falls
are potentially lethal. And in high water that river moves very fast indeed.

For the record, I have paddled the Leny without having an access problem,
but having to deal with a few paddlign problems. Different subject -
different context.

Incidentally, the Nith has adequate water between Drumlandrig and Dumfries
for a gentle and scenic float. The rest of it is a dry ditch and it would
prpbably be easier to walk the gorge than paddle it today!

Mike.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Mike I think you may have missed the context on this one. When I read
LittleBoyLuke's message I read the first 2 lines as referring to the
fact that there is no problem with access in Scotland and the third line
as meaning the Leny is dry. In fact, given the first 2 lines, your
interpretation doesn't make sense to me, but then you probably know I
think a bit weird anyway :-)

Anyway, the original poster said he wasn't wanting to do the Leny so why
are we wasting time discussing it anyway??????

But before I forget, Mike - the S-bend is below the falls, and whilst
not a challenge when the river is dry it is probably the hardest rapid
apart from the falls when the stopper is working. Better make sure you
advise people how to look for it and get on below (it's only about 100
yards past the falls) if you are going to recommend below the falls as a
beginner section!

JIM

Mike Buckley wrote:

Hmmm - I wonder if the plot / context isn't being lost here! LBL replied (in
perhaps a less than constructive fashion) to the ACCESS discussion in tones
that could be interpreted as being indicative of there being a problme with
ACCESS on the Leny "at the moment".

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Jim Wallis wrote in message
news:b63rhb.417.ln@Eskdale...
Mike I think you may have missed the context on this one. When I read
LittleBoyLuke's message I read the first 2 lines as referring to the
fact that there is no problem with access in Scotland and the third line
as meaning the Leny is dry. In fact, given the first 2 lines, your
interpretation doesn't make sense to me, but then you probably know I
think a bit weird anyway :-)

No, I dont think I have missed the context. LBL's reply specificlly refers
to "access" issues and he is replying to my post on the subject, specifially
access.

As to his third line, one could safely assume that, in the absence of any
indication to the contrary, he was also refering to access issues especially
as he had not indicated otherwise. So, as there aren't any access issues on
the Leny, the entire thread becomes void.

As to "weirdness" - I couldn't possibly comment, never having met you. One
mans weird is another mans normal is another mans ordinary and as weirdness
is therefore clearly in the mind of the beholder, it would be safe to assume
that if I thought you were weird, then perhaps I could be thought of in the
same vein.

(Incidentally - I have however met the esteemed D W (of photo fame in
another place) - some may say he is weird but I found him charming and
pleasant company!)


Anyway, the original poster said he wasn't wanting to do the Leny so why
are we wasting time discussing it anyway??????

Good point - still, meaningless debate is such fun.

But before I forget, Mike - the S-bend is below the falls, and whilst
not a challenge when the river is dry it is probably the hardest rapid
apart from the falls when the stopper is working. Better make sure you
advise people how to look for it and get on below (it's only about 100
yards past the falls) if you are going to recommend below the falls as a
beginner section!


Thats a very good point. I'm not sure I'm recommending the Leny as a
"beginner section" in fairness - in low water its a river that an
intermediate/improving river paddler can get a lot out of. The S-bend is
clearly visible (and worth inspecting) from the road a few hundred meters
before the car-park at the Falls. On the river, its marked by foaming white
water at high levels and an obvious rock-garden with the main rock clealry
visible river right just below the end of the drop proper.

All that said, I still maintain that its an acceptable run at low levels for
all but the very newest of paddlers. No doubt we can enter into a lenghty
debate about what defines a beginner / new(est) paddler(s).


Mike.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

All that said, I still maintain that its an acceptable run at low levels
for
all but the very newest of paddlers. No doubt we can enter into a lenghty
debate about what defines a beginner / new(est) paddler(s).

This is where I would strongly argue for exercising caution. If you are
offering advice to someone of unknown standard (or in this case someone who
wanted a grade I or II river) it is dangerous to suggest a grade III plus
river. Instead you should assume the river is virtually a river beginner to
be safe. Arguably you have no legal duty of care in respect of someone
reading this newsgroup but you certainly have a moral duty to look after
their welfare.

To advise anyone in this situation that the Leny is gentle apart from the
falls is liable to lead to an accident if they take your advice.

Broooz

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Mike Buckley wrote:

As to "weirdness" - I couldn't possibly comment, never having met you. One
mans weird is another mans normal is another mans ordinary and as weirdness
is therefore clearly in the mind of the beholder, it would be safe to assume
that if I thought you were weird, then perhaps I could be thought of in the
same vein.

Oh come on, even I've noticed that I go off at random tangents with
slightest provocation, or even without any provocation :-)

As for the whole LBL thing (actually the way you and I can split hairs
is fairly weird too) - he hasn't quoted anything and in my newsreader
his post appears to be a reply to the original, not yours. Which just
goes to show what a mess you can get into by replying without quoting or
at least expanding into full sentences that can be read standalone :-)
Lets face it, his post was neither composed, in any way useful, or even
coherent so lets just forget about it!

I should really plan some sea kayaking down on the Solway to meet up
with some of these people I keep corresponding with but have absolutely
no idea who they even are!

JIM

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Jim Wallis wrote in message
news:tuvthb.tjf.ln@Eskdale...
Mike Buckley wrote:

As to "weirdness" - I couldn't possibly comment, never having met you.
One
mans weird is another mans normal is another mans ordinary and as
weirdness
is therefore clearly in the mind of the beholder, it would be safe to
assume
that if I thought you were weird, then perhaps I could be thought of in
the
same vein.

Oh come on, even I've noticed that I go off at random tangents with
slightest provocation, or even without any provocation :-)

Random? Tangents? You? - Never!

As for the whole LBL thing (actually the way you and I can split hairs
is fairly weird too) - he hasn't quoted anything and in my newsreader
his post appears to be a reply to the original, not yours. Which just
goes to show what a mess you can get into by replying without quoting or
at least expanding into full sentences that can be read standalone :-)
Lets face it, his post was neither composed, in any way useful, or even
coherent so lets just forget about it!

Ahhhhh - I was begining to think we could return to the "good old days". Oh
well - back to reality. Now then - hair splitting - was that a two way split
or shall we attempt the little achieved 8 way diagonal, cross-hair split?

I should really plan some sea kayaking down on the Solway to meet up
with some of these people I keep corresponding with but have absolutely
no idea who they even are!

Indeed - and had you come on the SCA Solway trip, not only would you have
had a really nice weekend with some great crack, but you'd have met at least
two "net" correspondents over the course of the weekend!

JIM

Mike.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...
I note your opinion. The Teith includes a rapid which forms a recognised
slalom site. Are we therfore to suggest that it also falls outside the
criteria of a run suitble for begineers, in your words, "a gentle river"?

Not suitable for complete beginners but it is clearly grade II so falls
within the original criteria.

You are absolutley right in suggesting that the Leny requires care.
However,
at LOW levels I contend it is far from being anywhere near a "grade III
plus" river below the Falls. I base this informed view on finding a level
3
assessment group on the river some years ago.

That is not an appropriate way of deciding the grading of a river. Several
years ago it was common practice for some assessors to assess on water that
was generally above the required grade with the proviso that the assessment
would be suspended over the higher grade section. Then someone was failed
a LIII assessment on the Orchy and complained that the reason for their
failure was down to their nerves following the running of a section of IV
which was above their experience. That practice was then banned so
assessors should not assess on the III stretch of Leny any more.

Instead of using that method of judging the grading, try looking at the
rapid from the point of view of the gradings definitions and you will see it
is clearly grade III. Alternatively, ask an experienced level IV or V coach
if you don't trust the views of the only coaches to join this thread so far.

However the grading of that particular rapid less critical than the upper
Leny. Your original comment that caused concern from both me and Jim was
the statement "If the Leny is low, its relatively gentle (ex the Falls of
course). " The problem with that is how to judge whether it is low if you
are a grade II paddler you may not appreciate the difference. Secondly, how
to ensure you get off the river before the falls which is a very high risk
situation to put anyone of this experience into. Fortunately, Ewan was not
lulled into a false sense of security and decided against the Leny, but I
can't understand why you suggested it.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Ewan Scott wrote in message
Forgive me for replying to my own post, but it seems the best way of
commenting on the results of my original enquiry.

We were aware of the perils of the Leny, so it really isn't an issue.
We wouldn't do it wet, I've seen it's power, and I've seen it dry so
can see the boulders below waiting to liquidise those without the
ability to stay upright... So No thanks to the leny anyway.

Well within your capabilities. But you made your decision based on your own
knowledge and appreciation of whats there, so I can only commend you on that
;-)

We paddled from the put it at Strathyre down into Loch Lubnaig ( you
can apparently only put in at the campsite if you are camping). The
river trip was v.gentle, but a headwind on Loch Lubnaig made the loch
trip interesting. We surfed back up the lock on our return.
The paddle back up the river was easy with a couple of portages due to
lack of water.

Sounds like you had fun then.

We also paddled Loch Achray and investigated the river towards Loch
Venacher until the midges got too much.

Maybe there should be a "midge factor" included in river/loch guides - - - -

However, we bought the Scottish Whitewater Guide and went on a road
trip to investigate various sections advised. LOL. Grand Tully almost
got us taking a chance at low water. but discretion was the better
part of wisdom. We may have bn okay, but without back up we were
knackered if anything went wrong.

Grantully would have been lots of fun - get it wrong early on and its a
long, bumpy swim to the pool at the bottom though.

We looked at a number of other locations, including the Teith, the
latter being very low, and lthough we could have paled it, it seemed
that we would be spending a lot of time bumping off rocks and it was a
long walk back to the start with only one car available.

Been there - done that! A bike is the answer although hitching can work! Not
well, but it can. Could be the wet-suit that put folk off of course - - - -

At Dumfries we looked at the Caul, really not a lot of water there,
there was enough going through the salom ladder, but evidence of
hidden debris cautioned us against giving it a try without knowing
what was under the surface below the breach. Maybe next time.

Its safe enough - let us know when next you're up and we'll "arrange"
something.

By next Winter we should have our 4 Star and be working towards Level
Three, so maybe we will be better equipped. Thanks anyway.

Best of luck - making good progress by the sound of it.

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

YIS - Mike.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Broooz wrote in message
news:H5S0b.2855$O15.24416276@news-

- - - - try looking at the
rapid from the point of view of the gradings definitions and you will see
it
is clearly grade III.

We'll just go round in circles with this one, clearly. I think I'll stick by
my view. I apprecaite your opinion - while still maintaining that its not a
III in present low water conditions.

Alternatively, ask an experienced level IV or V coach
if you don't trust the views of the only coaches to join this thread so
far.

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a level
IV or V coach to grade the river.


However the grading of that particular rapid less critical than the upper
Leny. Your original comment that caused concern from both me and Jim was
the statement "If the Leny is low, its relatively gentle (ex the Falls of
course). " The problem with that is how to judge whether it is low if you
are a grade II paddler you may not appreciate the difference. Secondly,
how
to ensure you get off the river before the falls which is a very high risk
situation to put anyone of this experience into. Fortunately, Ewan was
not
lulled into a false sense of security and decided against the Leny, but I
can't understand why you suggested it.

We've dealt with that. In any event, I would expect anyone paddling an
unknown river, especially one where specific advice has been given with
regard to an area to avoid, to treat it with appropriate respect. Hardly
"lulling anone into a false sense of security" you'll agree.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a level
IV or V coach to grade the river.

This was the problem. Your assessment of the river is incorrect. As a
result your advice was dangerously flawed. When two experienced coaches
point this out you decide to stick with your own counsel. Sorry Mike, but I
can't see the sense in that. Why not check your facts by asking a senior
coach that you trust. I am sure you cannot behave like this when leading
your scouts.

We've dealt with that. In any event, I would expect anyone paddling an
unknown river, especially one where specific advice has been given with
regard to an area to avoid, to treat it with appropriate respect. Hardly
"lulling anone into a false sense of security" you'll agree.

Not likely as your presumption implies a greater knowledge than was
reasonable. Now you are saying "treat with appropriate respect" but there
was no hint of that in your original response which is where both Jim and I
started off.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Broooz wrote in message
...
"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a
level
IV or V coach to grade the river.

This was the problem. Your assessment of the river is incorrect. As a
result your advice was dangerously flawed. When two experienced coaches
point this out you decide to stick with your own counsel. Sorry Mike, but
I
can't see the sense in that. Why not check your facts by asking a senior
coach that you trust. I am sure you cannot behave like this when leading
your scouts.

Who are these "experienced coaches" and why is their opinion of any more
validity than mine?

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Broooz wrote in message
news:YAP2b.5107$we2.49008734@news-
I am a currently active kayak (inland) coach as well as being a lapsed A4
assessor and I seem to recall Jim being a L3 coach. I assume you are not
a
L3 coach from your comments here and elsewhere. If you are a L3 coach
then
you weren't assessed by anyone who was trained in modern assessment
techniques. Because a key criteria for passing L3 coach is having the
ability to recognise when you might be wrong, learn from others or at
least
consult with others to check out the validity of your approach.

As it happens, I am a coach.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

As it happens I am not a coach.

I used to be a L2 but I let my FA lapse and have never done any of these
new fangled update things - because I don't coach anymore. Really should
refresh the FA.

I was a little surprised at Mike's initial post because I thought he had
more respect for the Leny than came out in the post - I still think he
does. Our difference of opinion was really over whether it is worth
trying to scrape down at stupidly low levels rather than grading it at
that level (which probably hasn't come out in my post), I just wouldn't
bother to grade it but would still think it's not what someone looking
for a grade 1/2 river trip is interested in. I haven't seen the Leny in
the summer, but I find low rocky rivers to be physically quite tiring in
a way that grade 2 isn't to my way of thinking - that's not to say it
would be difficult to find a safe route down them.

As for this whole business of throwing qualifications around, I think
you're both off the wall with that! The vast majority of coaches are too
busy coaching to have enough experience of whitewater for me to pay them
any attention when they start trying to tell me about whitewater. That
doesn't mean I don't know some good coaches that are also fantastic
whitewater paddlers, just that the 2 things don't have to go together.
As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or
equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally
disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I know loads of paddlers who
could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have
nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone
was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river
running. Come to think of it every time we do a new river (whether it be
in Scotland or abroad) we are guiding ourselves and none of us have the
abilities of a L4 coach, if everyone needed a coach in the trip when
doing a new river no-ne would ever do anything different! It would make
more sense to find someone local to run the river with if you aren't
sure of your ability to read it.

I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different
experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply
grades to the Leny - it doesn't push me like I expect from grade 4, in
fact I play on it - I'll point out that the hardest bits are the falls
and the S-bend, and that generally speaking it is harder above the falls
noting that the S-bend is actually below the falls. I thought
recommending it when Ewan used it as an example of what he didn't want
to do was odd, I don't consider bumping over ledges and hauling my boat
round/over rocks as what a grade 1/2 paddle is all about, even if there
is not enough power to make the run a whitewater proposition!

Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting
to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation
is going to get even lower :-)

JIM

Mike Buckley wrote:

Broooz wrote in message
news:YAP2b.5107$we2.49008734@news-

I am a currently active kayak (inland) coach as well as being a lapsed A4
assessor and I seem to recall Jim being a L3 coach. I assume you are not

a

L3 coach from your comments here and elsewhere. If you are a L3 coach

then

you weren't assessed by anyone who was trained in modern assessment
techniques. Because a key criteria for passing L3 coach is having the
ability to recognise when you might be wrong, learn from others or at

least

consult with others to check out the validity of your approach.


As it happens, I am a coach.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Jim Wallis" wrote in message
news:utsiib.4kj.ln@Eskdale...
As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or
equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally
disagree. L4 is not about river guiding,
I mentioned L4 because the major difference between L3 and L4 is the river
leadership element - that is what 5 star is all about.

I know loads of paddlers who
could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have
nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone
was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river
running.
I agree too.

I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different
experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply
grades to the Leny
Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I know someone who died on the
Leny because he missed the breakout above the falls. He was better than a
grade 1 or 2 paddler. That is partly why I feel strongly about this one.

Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting
to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation
is going to get even lower :-)

Agreed - will try to look after your reputation in future! I didn't have
one to start with.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Jim Wallis wrote in message
news:utsiib.4kj.ln@Eskdale...
As it happens I am not a coach.

I used to be a L2 but I let my FA lapse and have never done any of these
new fangled update things - because I don't coach anymore. Really should
refresh the FA.

I was a little surprised at Mike's initial post because I thought he had
more respect for the Leny than came out in the post - I still think he
does. Our difference of opinion was really over whether it is worth
trying to scrape down at stupidly low levels rather than grading it at
that level (which probably hasn't come out in my post), I just wouldn't
bother to grade it but would still think it's not what someone looking
for a grade 1/2 river trip is interested in. I haven't seen the Leny in
the summer, but I find low rocky rivers to be physically quite tiring in
a way that grade 2 isn't to my way of thinking - that's not to say it
would be difficult to find a safe route down them.

Hmmm - I see where you're coming from - having paddled the river at all
levels from "the rocky ditch" to "the foaming, scary cauldron", and over
more years than I care to remember, I have to say that it has the potential
to give someone a good, safe and enyoyable day at a low level. Falls
excepted.

As for this whole business of throwing qualifications around, I think
you're both off the wall with that!

Probably! However, our esteemed paddling colleague and fellow Scouter (once
a Scout - always etc) seems to feel its important. It's important to
remember that the holding of a "qualification" does not give one the
exclusive remit to be the font of all knowlege. FWIW, I used the coaching
route purely as a vehicle to allow me to take kids paddling.

The vast majority of coaches are too
busy coaching to have enough experience of whitewater for me to pay them
any attention when they start trying to tell me about whitewater. That
doesn't mean I don't know some good coaches that are also fantastic
whitewater paddlers, just that the 2 things don't have to go together.

Indeed. But I disagree with the generalisation - the role of the coach is
not necessarily to be *the better* paddler, but to be able to *help* others
to improve. Nick Faldo (something to do with golf I believe) uses a coach to
help him improve - but its not the coach who wins the money, is it? The
mistake that many people (coaches or not) make is to beleive that their
experience / qualifaction / whatever, makes them in some way "qualified" to
tell other people what to do.

Not the case at all.

As for Broooz' comment about considering someone of L4 qualification or
equal ability is suitable to guide something like the Leny, I totally
disagree. L4 is not about river guiding, I know loads of paddlers who
could very safely lead/guide on much harder water than the Leny but have
nowhere near the coaching abilities of a L4 coach. I just wish everyone
was able to spot the significant difference between coaching and river
running. Come to think of it every time we do a new river (whether it be
in Scotland or abroad) we are guiding ourselves and none of us have the
abilities of a L4 coach, if everyone needed a coach in the trip when
doing a new river no-ne would ever do anything different! It would make
more sense to find someone local to run the river with if you aren't
sure of your ability to read it.

Indeed.

I'm always uncomfortable with grading discussions as different
experience leads to different opinions. As such I don't want to apply
grades to the Leny - it doesn't push me like I expect from grade 4, in
fact I play on it - I'll point out that the hardest bits are the falls
and the S-bend, and that generally speaking it is harder above the falls
noting that the S-bend is actually below the falls.

This is down to personal preference, experience and apprecaition of the
hazards! The Leny is a river I've used with new paddlers (below Falls,
naturally) at low levels; have run on my own at medium levels and had
seriously scary runs when high. Its given enormnous fun but also nearly
drowned a mate. We've lost gear, boats and "years" on it. The "S" has
terrified me and also given enormous pleasure to relative beginners.

I thought
recommending it when Ewan used it as an example of what he didn't want
to do was odd, I don't consider bumping over ledges and hauling my boat
round/over rocks as what a grade 1/2 paddle is all about, even if there
is not enough power to make the run a whitewater proposition!

Thats because your view (perhaps) of a good run on a good river might depend
on different factors - I view it, when low, as one of the scenic,
pleasurable paddles. However, I concur totally with the frustration of
ledges, rocks and the like ;-)

Anyway, I think it's time to put the handbags away! You're both starting
to look like idiots and I'm concerned that by joining in my reputation
is going to get even lower :-)

You have a reputation? Next you'll be thinking you're paranoid. And who told
you that you were paranoid??????

I'm enjoying the debate - as to looking like an idiot, I have no problem
with that at all - never being one to take myself so seriously that I have
to be right all the time. Context is everything.

However, tedium is something else so I think I shall withdraw now and enjoy
a nice glass of Jamiesons before my nitetime cocoa.

Keep smiling - Mike.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Mike Buckley wrote:
You have a reputation?

Barely!

However, tedium is something else so I think I shall withdraw now and enjoy
a nice glass of Jamiesons before my nitetime cocoa.

Oh yes that well known single malt Scotch whiskey, mind you Dumfries is
probably nearer to Ireland than it is to the real Scotland (how's that
for handbag slinging :-))

JIM

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

The reason I don't like to grade it is because someone else will always say "oh but I've run that
and it's not that hard", and then people start paying attention to such
idiots. I prefer to think of it as runnable but hard and dangerous.


Ah. There you have the crux of the difficulty of paddling.

What many more "experienced" paddlers can do in their sleep, others
see as a terrifying, insurmountable challenge. This applies not just
to the Leny, but to deep slow moving water on any river. Throw in the
slightest element of speed, or ledge and many a lower level paddler
panics.

I had a bad experience on the Clyde when I was a lad and I never
paddled again for 18 years. I know now that I should never have been
on the river at that point.

However, I still find higher graded instructors looking to take lower
skilled paddlers on water they shouldn't be on (IMHO). I know of one
paddler with skills not quite as good as he thinks they are, who went
to Tyne Tees with an instructor and spend most of the day swimming. As
far as I am aware it didn't put him off. However, it would have been
an experience that would put many others off. sometimes, at all
levels, we forget that those who are not quite as skilled as
ourselves, may not be up to what we think is easy.

We do need to encourage people to push their envelope, but we need to
be very careful not to draw people into water grades and experiences
that they are not mentally ready for.

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Jim Wallis" wrote in message
news:dvgoib.ho4.ln@Eskdale...

I had never heard of that before

Next time you're there, look for the plaque.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
The reason I don't like to grade it is because someone else will always
say "oh but I've run that
and it's not that hard", and then people start paying attention to such
idiots. I prefer to think of it as runnable but hard and dangerous.


Ah. There you have the crux of the difficulty of paddling.

We do need to encourage people to push their envelope, but we need to
be very careful not to draw people into water grades and experiences
that they are not mentally ready for.

Agreed - that is where the gradings are much more useful than has been
suggested here. Many people have a tendency to downgrade rapids because
they found them easy or because they have only ever paddled it at low levels
(thereby giving an invalid grading). But experienced paddlers will go back
to the original definitions of the gradings and find that actually there is
much less scope for differences of opinion than has been suggested. A good
coach will take such information along with knowledge of the paddler to
produce the desired experience.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

snip general consensus

We do need to encourage people to push their envelope, but we need to
be very careful not to draw people into water grades and experiences
that they are not mentally ready for.

Hmmm - I think that has considerable validitiy, but there is a difference
between setting someone up to challenge their ability and knowing that there
is a nice,safe pool to collect the bits in and that there is little
entrapment risk and the situation where a mistake will result in someone
getting a serious fright and /or being put into a position where they are at
real risk.

Again, the good coach will assess this - in much the same way that a Scouter
will assess the degree of risk and challenge a child is ready for.

One of the problems is that the good coach may well not have the depth
of knowledge of the candidates to make that decision. The problem lies
not in the technical dificulty of the water being paddled, but rather
on the understanding of the mental state of the paddler. A paddler may
well be capable of paddling, and we may know that they can safey carry
out a task, but in their mind they have the wrong attitude and they
then could be in danger of failing to complete through lack of
commitment to the action.

I became aware of this when I nearly lost a 2 Star candidate when ,
after a year of paddling and capsizing and many successful attempts at
Eskimo rescues we were doing a capsize and swim to shore. She
hesitated, went over, and we waited for her to pop up beside the
boat... and waited. I was charging towards her when there was a great
sucking sound and a pop and she surfaced gasping for air.

She had gone over, panicked, failed to even try and find the grab on
her spray deck and as it was a tight fit she couldn't just pop it off
by pushing against it.

It turned out that she had always gone through the motions of looking
for the grab but had always been too panicky and had just pushed
herself out of the boat. Now none of us had realised this. We made the
assumption that she was doing it okay and was perfectly happy with the
action. We were wrong. As a result we pressed her to push her envelope
without correctly assesing her state of mind or her ability to
correctly complete the capsize drill - which she had "faked" for over
a year - and had fooled several coaches into thinking she was doing it
right.

We have now changed our approach to this candidate, and also to the
way in which we go through the capsize drill to make sure this does
not happen again.


Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Ewan Scott wrote:
The problem lies
not in the technical dificulty of the water being paddled, but rather
on the understanding of the mental state of the paddler.

This is the argument I use for having given up coaching, all of a sudden
I found I had lost the knack of understanding the emotions etc. of the
beginners. You would be surprised how many people tell me I should coach
to put something back in to paddling despite my trying to explain that
to them.

JIM

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
One of the problems is that the good coach may well not have the depth
of knowledge of the candidates to make that decision. The problem lies
not in the technical dificulty of the water being paddled, but rather
on the understanding of the mental state of the paddler. A paddler may
well be capable of paddling, and we may know that they can safey carry
out a task, but in their mind they have the wrong attitude and they
then could be in danger of failing to complete through lack of
commitment to the action.

I agree that it is hard but not impossible. A good coach has to be more
sensitive than your typical outdoor type. This often means that women make
better coaches than men although sadly they are few and far between. The
key to all of this is good listening skills, good observation and learning
from your mistakes and from those of others. The best of coaches will
always be looking to find better ways of doing things. Occasionally you
will get it wrong but hopefully you can pick up most of such instances in
future.

We have now changed our approach to this candidate, and also to the
way in which we go through the capsize drill to make sure this does
not happen again.

The example you give is evidence of this learning taking place. I suspect
you will be much less likely to miss such a situation again. Does this not
disprove your first point above (the good coach may well not have the depth
of knowledge of the candidates) as I would guess that you will now be
looking out for candidates that look more confident than they are.

Incidentally, perhaps for this reason, good coaches are in my opinion more
often than not
non-professional coaches which is where canoeing had such an advantage over
many other sports that tend to be dominated by paid professionals.

Gentle Paddling in Scotland.
 

Ewan Scott wrote in message
Anyroad, we'll be wearing goggles so that we can inspect capsize drill
under water in future :-)

A thought for you - get a waterproof camera and capsize with the candidate -
take pic (also lets you check release drill!!!) - roll up after they have
bailed out - get pics developed and present to each child as evidenc of
successful capsize. They love it.

Alternative is to merely have someone in the water who ducks under to take
the pic (and check for release).