BCITORGB wrote:
Tink recommends:
===============
Did you follow my suggestion about using 2x4 runners that would
extend
further to the front. Most of the standard rack, are only 4 or 5 ft
max
between cross bars. That leaves alot of a 18 ft double or longer,
unsupported.

Frtzw seems to be gitting the hang of this, we will see what he comes
up with. TnT
===============

I'm with you re the runners, but now what? So I've got runners
extending forward, past the standard short rack -- I like that idea.
But, what do you recommend I do with these 2X4 ends... since my bow,
curved as it is, will likely sit several inches above these 2X4 ends.
What/how do I construct to fit on these ends to support the bow. Just
foam perhaps? I'm stuck.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

Evening frtzw, you would want to install a cross 2x4 at the ends of the
2x4 extended runner. What you are trying to accomplish is to have your
kayak supported as far forward and as far back as possible on the top
of your van. The cross 2x4 could have the foam hull supports attached
to them for the kayak to actually set on.

If you recall in the other thread, Wolfgang made a comment about his
kayak being 9.5 ft. long, and setting just fine on the standard van
rack. And he is proably correct. the problem is yours is twice as long,
meaning you would have a long unsupported overhang of the boat beyond
the standard rack, which was evident in your picture of the kayak on
you van. He could get away with driving all the miles he did with his
kayak, but you will eventually have trouble and damage your boat, and
especially if you tighten the ropes on the bow and stern to much.

I have made a similar rack for my vehicle previously, and used for bike
rack, ski rack, and now kayak, wind surfer, and other misc junk. I dont
feel that it is necessary to fit the cross piece to the curve of the
top. Just bolt it on top of the runners near the end, as far forward
as you can get it. It should clear the curve of the roof, and extend
out as wide as the van body, maybe even a couple of inches wider, and
gives you some clearance to get a tie down rope or strap around the
cross piece. The cross piece this way rest on the extended runners
which transmits the weight to the body support structures, and not just
the skin.

Sort of a big square frame on top of your van. All this needs to be
attached to the existing rack. If you have gutters, I suggest using
turnbuckles and strapping to make a tiedown between the extended cross
piece, and the gutter. This will keep the front of the rack from trying
to lift off while driving down the road.

The main advantage of the rack is you do not have to tie the kayak down
by passing ropes through the windows and across the inside the van.
Depending on where these would go through, you may not be able to get
your doors open. This result in the accompaning amusement of watching a
short plump guy crawl in and out through the drivers window. Personally
I have trouble seeing that, or as in my case, a big plump guy! With a
rack, you tie the kayak down to the rack, and use the bow and stern
lines to maintain the kayak on top of your car, and not flying off as
you drive down the road, which is usually not considered to be
desirable.

If you tranport your bikes much, you can make some brackets using bike
axle and quick release for much less than Thule parts, and bolt them on
to the 2x4 cross pieces. (I'll try to dig one out for you and take a
picture and email.) On your Aerostar, you could probably put 6 bikes
on top. Try pricing out a 6 bike Thule, and this whole thing can be
made for less than $20 plus if for bikes, maybe $10 more/bike. plus
tiedown rope and foam blockes that you already have. Add one kayak,
stir, and have a good time. When you get the second kayak, and you will
have a second one, you will be set, maybe even a third, when you have
another buddy go with you! Which you should! Definite safety in
numbers! And even more fun!

Hopefully this clears some of your questions, TnT

Tik recommends:
===================
Sort of a big square frame on top of your van. All this needs to be
attached to the existing rack. If you have gutters, I suggest using
turnbuckles and strapping to make a tiedown between the extended cross
piece, and the gutter. This will keep the front of the rack from trying
to lift off while driving down the road.
======================

Thanks Tink. After my last post, I got to thinking about what you and
Michael had suggested and I realised that a frame/box was what you were
getting at.

Clearly I'll have cross pieces fore and aft (as far in either direction
as possible). I'm also thinking about adding another cross piece
somewhere in between, near the center of the hull. Or do you guys think
that would be overkill?

I'm also getting the impression that most people don't care too much
whether the cross pieces reflect the curvature of the hull. I was
thinking at least a bit of a "V" (keeping in mind that the load should
be carried by the keel, not the sides of the hull -- so a wider "V" as
opposed to a deeper one). Again, is this overkill?

Finally, Michael, I think, recommended 2X6's for the cross pieces. That
makes sense to me in terms of "meeting" the upward hull curvature of
fore and aft sections.

So, if I can just get you guys to sign off on this project, I'll be off
to the lumber yard.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

On 18-Mar-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

I'm also getting the impression that most people don't care too much
whether the cross pieces reflect the curvature of the hull.

I do!

I was
thinking at least a bit of a "V" (keeping in mind that the load should
be carried by the keel, not the sides of the hull -- so a wider "V" as
opposed to a deeper one). Again, is this overkill?

You want the most support you can get. This is especially true with a
plastic hull. You can either cut into a deep crosspiece (like a 2x6)
or make a saddle that bolts to the crosspiece. The latter will be more
flexible in allowing for lots of different configurations.

If you have a skin-on-frame kayak or a canoe, you don't need a saddle
since you can carry it upside down on its gunnels. Not many factory
kayaks have a flat enough deck to carry upside down easily on a flat
crossbar. I know folks that do this, however. If you rest the
kayak on its side (as with J racks or stackers) you only need padding.

Mike

Michael suggests:
===============
You want the most support you can get. This is especially true with a
plastic hull. You can either cut into a deep crosspiece (like a 2x6)
or make a saddle that bolts to the crosspiece. The latter will be more
flexible in allowing for lots of different configurations.
============

See what you think about this: I cut deep into the 2x6 crosspiece
(rectangular cut) and then create a sling using a fairly wide webbing
strap (perhaps 1.5" wide to correspond to the 1.5" cross-section of the
2x6).

I don't know if this qualifies as a "saddle", but it would seem to
conform ideally to the hull curvature and also transfer the mass of the
kayak, via straps, to the crosspiece. The issue here, I guess, is
ensuring that the straps can be securely mounted to the crosspiece
(grommets etc, eh?).

Or am I getting too complicated (and perhaps flimsy) here?

Michael, you have an uncanny ability to "send me back to the drawing
board". Thanks, I appreciate the input.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

BCITORGB wrote:
Michael suggests:
===============
You want the most support you can get. This is especially true with
a
plastic hull. You can either cut into a deep crosspiece (like a 2x6)
or make a saddle that bolts to the crosspiece. The latter will be
more
flexible in allowing for lots of different configurations.
============

See what you think about this: I cut deep into the 2x6 crosspiece
(rectangular cut) and then create a sling using a fairly wide webbing
strap (perhaps 1.5" wide to correspond to the 1.5" cross-section of
the
2x6).

I don't know if this qualifies as a "saddle", but it would seem to
conform ideally to the hull curvature and also transfer the mass of
the
kayak, via straps, to the crosspiece. The issue here, I guess, is
ensuring that the straps can be securely mounted to the crosspiece
(grommets etc, eh?).

Or am I getting too complicated (and perhaps flimsy) here?

Michael, you have an uncanny ability to "send me back to the drawing
board". Thanks, I appreciate the input.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

I think Michael is right about fitting a saddle for the hull to fit in
is a good idea. when he spoke of curvature before, fitting the top of
the van, maybe I missed what he was saying. To support the hull with a
saddle spreads out the weight of the kayak from just resting on one
very small area, and can overload that spot causing distortion. You
accomplish a lot with the foam pads. They do make high density foam
blocks that you can use for the hull also.

If the rocker interferes with the roof top, move the cross memgers
closer together. You can get an idea for spacing, just set the kayak on
the ground, and slide some 2x4 blocks under to determine the clearance
issues. Generally I think longer is better, but again Michael is
correct to say that the bow and stern lines are what actually hold the
kayak on top of the van, the rack just provides something for it to
rest on.

================================================== =====================
And Walts recommendation to drive a few miles and then stop and check
it is the best and most important!
================================================== =====================

And don't forget that it is up there. I say a 'yaker pull into an
underground parking garage one time. The low clearance was a big ouch!

One other thing I do, is using a bicycle cable lock, through the rack,
and various holes in the kayak, I lock it on. Serves as a safety if the
ropes come loose, and when you stop for the pizza, some numbskull
doesn't think that he can grab your kayak and make a quick get away.
Really ruins your day if you come out to your van and your pride and
joy, is gone! TnT

Tink suggests:
=============
One other thing I do, is using a bicycle cable lock, through the rack,
and various holes in the kayak,
===============

You have HOLES in your kayak!? I thought the objective was to avoid
holes!

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink suggests:
=============
One other thing I do, is using a bicycle cable lock, through the
rack,
and various holes in the kayak,
===============

You have HOLES in your kayak!? I thought the objective was to avoid
holes!

frtzw906

Well actually, you need one for each of the crew! Even canoes have
great big long holes, amazing they even float!

Now if you look inside these holes, you might find a seat support or
center post that you can thread a long cable around. Otherwise, some
kayaks have fittings or handles on the bow or stern for lifting that
you can put a cable lock in!

Every year there is someone on Mountain Buzz who put their kayaks on
the car night before a trip, to come out in the morning, and they lost
their boats overnight, or at the pizza pl, or motel. That would be
heartbreaking! TnT

On 18 Mar 2005 11:51:54 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

Michael suggests:
===============
You want the most support you can get. This is especially true with a
plastic hull. You can either cut into a deep crosspiece (like a 2x6)
or make a saddle that bolts to the crosspiece. The latter will be more
flexible in allowing for lots of different configurations.
============

See what you think about this: I cut deep into the 2x6 crosspiece
(rectangular cut) and then create a sling using a fairly wide webbing
strap (perhaps 1.5" wide to correspond to the 1.5" cross-section of the
2x6).

I don't know if this qualifies as a "saddle", but it would seem to
conform ideally to the hull curvature and also transfer the mass of the
kayak, via straps, to the crosspiece. The issue here, I guess, is
ensuring that the straps can be securely mounted to the crosspiece
(grommets etc, eh?).

Or am I getting too complicated (and perhaps flimsy) here?


Maybe too flimsy. If you're using big wood for strength, cutting into
it seems somehow wrong to me. Bolts through it, maybe?

I am not a woodworker or all that great at mechanical things. A whole
shaker of salt might be advisable with my above comments.

Michael, you have an uncanny ability to "send me back to the drawing
board". Thanks, I appreciate the input.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========


Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

Cyli confesses:
==============
Maybe too flimsy. If you're using big wood for strength, cutting into
it seems somehow wrong to me. Bolts through it, maybe?

I am not a woodworker or all that great at mechanical things.
================

I'm not a woodworker, and I positively suck at mechanical things.
Perhaps I'll wait for Michael's learned input on this one.

But keep in mind, the "cut" was to be into the top, mid, section of a
2x6 -- either a "v"-like cut to accommodate the shape of the hull
resting in it, or a rectangular-like cut to accommodate a webbing strap
which would, in theory (my theory) conform even better to the shape of
the hull and negate the need for foam or other cushioning material.

However, my concern is less for compromising the structural integrity
due to the cut into the wood (what do I know?) but more over how to
ensure that the webbing strap can be affixed securely on either side of
the cut. [as i type this, I'm thinking of extending the webbing strap
along the top of the 2x6 and screwing a 2x1 strip over this bit of
webbing strap and into the 2x6].

Like I've said before, this is beginning to take on the semblance of,
at minimum, a porch extension.

Cheers,
Wilf
=============

On 18-Mar-2005, Cyli wrote:

Maybe too flimsy. If you're using big wood for strength, cutting into
it seems somehow wrong to me. Bolts through it, maybe?

If you do it the way I describe, the wood is cut to match the curvature
of the roof and is supported at every point on the roof. Hence, the
wood doesn't need a lot of strength. Cutting into it won't be a big
deal as long as there's about 2" or so of wood left.

Mike