"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wolfgang says:
==============
In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and
it
should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also
closer
to center which means it would take more weight to counterbalance
there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get
weight
up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.
===============

Wolfgang, that was pretty much my thinking as well, but I thought,
given the wealth of experience around this forum, that I'd ask.

It would be just like me to have given this a theoretical one-over,
only to have missed some fairly obvious practical variables. As a
lifetime klutz, I speak from experience. If it can be screwed up, I'll
be the one to do it (reality NEVER correlates with my abstractions!).



One problem you'll have from sitting in the stern and putting weight in the
bow, wilf, is that your boat will be a lot harder to turn. Normally, the bow
paddler turns the front of the boat for you, so you will definately notice
their absence if you replace them with a rock or two.

The reason that solo boats tend to have the paddler in the middle (or just a
tiny bit astern) is that you can pivot the boat around the center of gravity
(your butt) with wide, circular sweeping strokes. However, if you sit in the
stern seat and put enough weight in the bow seat to keep the vessel trim,
you are too far behind the center of gravity to effectively rotate the boat
with paddling strokes. Instead, your turns tend to be 'driving strokes' as
you drive around a circle, or relatively inefficient draw strokes as you
drag the butt end of your boat around the center of gravity. Fine enough in
a lake, if you don't mind adding a few dozen yards and strokes to all of
your changes of direction, but very difficult to manage in a moving river,
where you often want to realign your boat direction without actually
changing the drift you are on.

In canoes, Wolfie, its pretty common (assuming the style of seat allows it)
to turn the boat around and sit in the 'bow seat', as this puts your body
closer to the center of the boat. Often, this maintains the proper trim by
itself, without having to add a load in the bow. Similarly, when loading
canoes for trips, you tend to put the heavier gear in the center of the boat
(water bottles, beer, pots and pans) and the lighter stuff (duffel, trash
bags, empty coffee pots) out near the ends, as they won't effect your
ability to pivot so much.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in
:


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wolfgang says:
==============
In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and
it should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also
closer to center which means it would take more weight to
counterbalance there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get
weight up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.
===============

Wolfgang, that was pretty much my thinking as well, but I thought,
given the wealth of experience around this forum, that I'd ask.

It would be just like me to have given this a theoretical one-over,
only to have missed some fairly obvious practical variables. As a
lifetime klutz, I speak from experience. If it can be screwed up, I'll
be the one to do it (reality NEVER correlates with my abstractions!).



One problem you'll have from sitting in the stern and putting weight in
the bow, wilf, is that your boat will be a lot harder to turn.
Normally, the bow paddler turns the front of the boat for you, so you
will definately notice their absence if you replace them with a rock or
two.

On the other hand, if someone is paddling a tandem kayak solo the stern seat
is the only one that might have rudder peddles.

"riverman" wrote in message
...

...In canoes, Wolfie, its pretty common (assuming the style of seat allows
it) to turn the boat around and sit in the 'bow seat', as this puts your
body closer to the center of the boat. Often, this maintains the proper
trim by itself, without having to add a load in the bow.

Yeah, I've tried that. I didn't like it. For one thing, while it does put
you closer to the center of the boat, in the case of my boat the difference
is not enough to eliminate the need for counterbalancing altogether.....the
bow still tended to ride high. Second, and more important, as you approach
the center of the canoe, the boat gets wider and you have to reach out
further to clear the gunwales. Probably not all that important from the
standpoint of mechanics, but it annoyed me.

Similarly, when loading canoes for trips, you tend to put the heavier gear
in the center of the boat (water bottles, beer, pots and pans) and the
lighter stuff (duffel, trash bags, empty coffee pots) out near the ends,
as they won't effect your ability to pivot so much.

Pivoting was never an issue for me. I spent all of my canoeing time on
lakes or low gradient rivers. There was never a single instance (aside from
trying to play a fish....in which cases both hands were busy anyway) when I
needed to be able to turn sharply.

Now that I think about it, I guess that what I really like about kayaking is
the relative freedom of motion versus canoeing and that I can do it alone
without having to make compromises enforced by the inherent limitations of
the craft.

Wolfgang

"Wolfgang" wrote in message
...

"riverman" wrote in message
...

...In canoes, Wolfie, its pretty common (assuming the style of seat
allows it) to turn the boat around and sit in the 'bow seat', as this
puts your body closer to the center of the boat. Often, this maintains
the proper trim by itself, without having to add a load in the bow.

Yeah, I've tried that. I didn't like it. For one thing, while it does
put you closer to the center of the boat, in the case of my boat the
difference is not enough to eliminate the need for counterbalancing
altogether.....the bow still tended to ride high. Second, and more
important, as you approach the center of the canoe, the boat gets wider
and you have to reach out further to clear the gunwales. Probably not all
that important from the standpoint of mechanics, but it annoyed me.

Similarly, when loading canoes for trips, you tend to put the heavier
gear in the center of the boat (water bottles, beer, pots and pans) and
the lighter stuff (duffel, trash bags, empty coffee pots) out near the
ends, as they won't effect your ability to pivot so much.

Pivoting was never an issue for me. I spent all of my canoeing time on
lakes or low gradient rivers. There was never a single instance (aside
from trying to play a fish....in which cases both hands were busy anyway)
when I needed to be able to turn sharply.

Now that I think about it, I guess that what I really like about kayaking
is the relative freedom of motion versus canoeing and that I can do it
alone without having to make compromises enforced by the inherent
limitations of the craft.



Heh heh heh, you're stepping in a minefield here, buddy. Those of us who are
diehard openboaters will be quick to challenge that there are any
'compromises enforced by inherent limitations' of canoes. They do what they
do...its not a compromise. And they do a lot more than it seems. An
openboater who is comfortable with their boat can paddle all day on a lake
without getting tired, or having the boat go in s-curves while they are
paddling straight, and would consider sitting down as low as a kayak getting
dripped on all day by that top blade as a compromise. Its an endless debate
with no solution, but I would mention that your leanings in the above post,
as well as in some others, tells me that you are lost to the dark side. Too
bad....you might have made a good open boater....

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message
...

Heh heh heh, you're stepping in a minefield here, buddy.

"I can dance, I can dance, I can dance, I can dance.........."

Those of us who are diehard openboaters will be quick to challenge that
there are any 'compromises enforced by inherent limitations' of canoes.
They do what they do...its not a compromise. And they do a lot more than
it seems. An openboater who is comfortable with their boat can paddle all
day on a lake without getting tired, or having the boat go in s-curves
while they are paddling straight,

Compromise isn't an attribute of inanimate objects. You're right, canoes do
what they do. It's ME that has to compromise. I can sit in the middle of a
canoe, with all the advantages of maneuverability that this position
provides......and be uncomfortable in the process. Or, I can sit in the
stern where I am more comfortable and still have all the maneuverability
that I've ever needed. I'm willing to sacrifice the extra (and, for me,
unneeded) maneuverability. I find this to be an eminently reasonable
compromise.

and would consider sitting down as low as a kayak getting dripped on all
day by that top blade as a compromise.

And that's o.k. For me, on the other hand, this is not a compromise.

Its an endless debate with no solution,

It's only a debate for those who choose to participate in a debate. For
myself, I remain uncompromising in allowing every individaul to choose his
or her own path to hell......so long as they don't drag anyone unwilling
parties with them.

but I would mention that your leanings in the above post, as well as in
some others, tells me that you are lost to the dark side.

It's fun. Buy now, pay later.*

Too bad....you might have made a good open boater....

Been there. Used to do some racing back in the day. And remember, I DO
still own an open boat.

Wolfgang
*um.....dorian gray.......if memory serves.