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#51
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On 10-Mar-2005, Kieran wrote: Hmmm... this seems to be the part I'm missing. How do you get power without knowing the path of the force? Determining the moment in the shaft at some point allows you to resolve the force at another point (say, centroid of area of the blade). Knowing the paddle motion, from the video analysis you can do, will allow you to determine the velocity of that centroid. Hence the power out. Since power is a scalar, not a vector, you don't have to worry about direction. However, that is total power in, not power that drives the kayak forward. That is, if you calculate (estimate) the power to drive the kayak (total hull resistance times hull velocity), it will be less than the power that the paddle generates. Mike |
#52
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Michael Daly wrote:
On 10-Mar-2005, Kieran wrote: Hmmm... this seems to be the part I'm missing. How do you get power without knowing the path of the force? Determining the moment in the shaft at some point allows you to resolve the force at another point (say, centroid of area of the blade). Knowing the paddle motion, from the video analysis you can do, will allow you to determine the velocity of that centroid. Hence the power out. Since power is a scalar, not a vector, you don't have to worry about direction. Yes, all this I already knew... basically you're saying you DO need to know the path of the force to get power. It seemed that Alan was implying there was another way, just by knowing the force-time relationship. However, that is total power in, not power that drives the kayak forward. That is, if you calculate (estimate) the power to drive the kayak (total hull resistance times hull velocity), it will be less than the power that the paddle generates. Actually, that's kind of the point. We want to know how much power the paddler develops and puts into the paddle. -Kieran |
#53
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Kieran writes
Tinkerntom wrote: Force on the paddle shaft, at the handgrip. Makes me think of a big torque wrench. Do you get any deflection of the paddle shaft while paddling? Use a smaller shaft until you do, Take video, or measure the deflection of the needle! Then in the lab, measure the force needed to duplicate the deflection. You should then have an idea of what the possible force exerted on the shaft would be for a particular paddler. The potential force would be based on as wolfgang points out the effectiveness of the engine mount, the paddlers seat and feet, the grip, and other loss of efficiency factors that could be isolated for significance. TnT The problem is not how to measure the moment (torque) on the shaft. Strain guages have been around for ages that will allow me to do that, and I'm well familiar with how to implement them. The problem is determining power from that force. The force balance in the kayak system is weird, as there is no fixed pivot point on the paddle. So, the pivot point is a "virtual" one. I'm making progress, but still wonder if anyone has done this already. The only way I can see to determine power at the hand grip is to record 3D kinematic video of the motion, so that the actual 3D vector of the handgrip velocity is known. Then Power=FxV. But I wonder if there's a better/simpler way to do it. I did find a paper (Aitken, 1992) that measured paddle shaft torque (bending) with strain guages, then used the hull velocity through the water to get power. I don't see how this is valid, though, since hand velocity is not equal to hull velocity. But then I suppose it would depend on what your frame of reference was... Hmmmm.... Any other bright ideas out there? :-) Keiran - Your getting lots of feedback, but the complexity of the problem is vast and the simplifications on offer may be too simplistic, although you've made that point in some you've answered already. Trying to assess fluid drag on the boat from towing measurements is not going to give a great answer, since no kayak goes in straight lines. And even if you could measure a more accurate power loss for the hull that gives you no handle on the power losses around the immersed paddle. A paddle is probably more efficient than an oar, but how efficient is it, & how does its propulsive efficiency vary through the stroke? Could one "catch" all the energy added to a finite but significant volume of free water surrounding the path of the paddle stroke? Are there ways to track the 3-D motion within that volume over time (it sounds like a real-time tomography problem, perhaps done by laser scans using suspended reflective particles), & feed that back into a CFD program to sum up momentum transfers and frictional losses. Now, if you could strain gauge a paddler........ It'd be great if the means existed. Then you'd be able to measure the forces & speeds of action at every bodily joint. Does that mean you'd have to build a robotic paddler & tune him until he imposed the same loads & speeds of action as a human on real paddles in a real moving boat? Or is there any feasible way to take such direct measurements? The answer may still be 42, of course. Good luck there - Carl -- Carl Douglas Racing Shells - Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK Email: Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550 URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers) |
#54
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Kieran:
As a person who did considerable white water kayaking in the 60's (since then it's been mostly C-1 and rafting), plus a combined-fields background (B. of M.E. and Ph.D. physics), I hope I can offer some constructive comments. First, let us just consider measuring the forces in sufficient detail. I agree with the suggestion of Carl Douglas on February 28 that strain gaging the paddle shaft is probably the most effective way to go. Strain gage arrays can be designed to do each of the following: (1) Measure flexursl (bending) moment. (2) Measure axial force. (3) Measure perpendicular (shear) force. (4) Measure torsional (twisting) moment. Incidentally, I prefer using "arrays" instead of "rosettes" because a rosette most often is used to denote two or more adjacent strain gages mounted on the same backing sheet. "Array" is more general, as it can also include strain gages mounted on opposite sides of the paddle shaft. Thus, a combination of strain gage arrays between the paddle blade and the paddler's hand can measure all necessary force components. A similar combination of arrays, rotated by 90 degrees with a feathered paddle, would be mounted between the other paddle blade and the paddler's corresponding hand. This leaves the question of forces in the paddle shaft between the paddler's hands. We should not assume that these are zero. Strain gage arrays can be mounted at the middle of the shaft. Again, all of the above (1-4) can be measured. Measuring flexural moments at the midpoint can even resolve possible flexural moments exerted by the paddler's hands. Thus, we are talking about a total of 12 strain-gage-array measurement channels. But with all of them, the forces and moments on the paddler's hands become statically determined. Possible extrapolation to forces at wrists, elbows and shoulders remain separate problems. Using strain gages sounds deceptively simple. At risk of telling you what you already know, let me recommend "Strain Gage Users's Handbook" (1992) edited by Hannah and Reed, most highly. It is published by the Society for Experimental Mechanics, Inc. Bethel, CT. Among other things, it is not advisable to mount strain gages on plastic or composite surfaces. This has to do with heat-sinking. Metal surfaces are best. Thus, if the kayak paddle has an aluminum tube core (as many do), suggest stripping the outer, plastic layers off before installing the strain gages. Regarding the problem of velocity measurements (to get the power), I suspect that the video method which you proposed would be most effective, especially as I got the impression that some people in your department already have some experience with that. The alternative idea of using 3-D arrays of six accelerometers is also intriguing. Effects of error propagation in integrating acceleration can induce serious inaccuracies, unless great care is exercised. Overall, my reaction is the following: (1) The project is certainly feasible, and has exciting potential. (2) Considering its scope (if done thoruoghly) it may be too much for a Master's thesis, and more appropriate for a Ph.D. thesis. You may wish to talk with your professor about that. Please feel free to contact me directly. Andres Peekna Innovative Mechanics, Inc. 5908 North River Bay Road Waterford, WI 53185-3035 Kieran wrote: Allan Bennett wrote: In article j1tUd.66306$8a6.13749@trndny09, Kieran wrote: That's the general idea, but because the paddling motion is 3-d, it's not very easy to determine power just from the strain in the paddle shaft. The flex in a paddle-shaft will be a reflection of all the forces acting upon the blade in the water. Using the force profile: t v deflection) and suitable calibration, it will be possible to determine the power. Hmmm... this seems to be the part I'm missing. How do you get power without knowing the path of the force? You need to know instantaneous velocity (direction and magnitude) at every moment. In a fixed-pivot environment like rowing, you can just put a potentiometer on the oar-lock. But the kayak/canoe paddle has no fixed pivot point. So, I imagine that a virtual pivot point would have to be derived via 3-d kinematic video analysis. It seems there is a virtual point (see Plagenhoef, 1979 and others), just as there is a virtual point where all the forces that propel the boat seem to meet - a valuable tool for those athletes with adequate imagination. Thanks for the reference. I'll see if I can find that publication. Would that be a book or a journal article? I haven't yet sat down and done a free-body of the system, but in my head, it seems like it's going to be an indeterminant system... not fun. ..and the ultimate purpose? Trying to come up with a master's thesis for my degree in biomechanics. A research prof here has an ongoing project that considers at a high (systems) level the energetics of different forms of human locomotion through/in/on water, including surface swimming with/without fins, submerged (e.g. scuba) swimming, rowing, and kayaking. There's very little published research that we can find on kayaking, so that's the part I'm tackling. Thanks for your input! -Kieran |
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