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Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
On 5-Aug-2003, John Fereira wrote:
A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. It doesn't sound like an easy to control kayak either. There's no mention on the Perception web site of such features as thigh hooks etc. That's a pretty basic requirement for controlling edging in any kind of WW. That's fine if his intent is to swim through the WW. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. Is that class II because of relatively low water levels running through lots of windy paths through rocks or because of scary but straight running wave trains? Running a sea kayak through a bunch of haystacks in a straight line is nowhere near as difficult as turning on a dime amid the rocks. No one has defined the conditions other than just WW - pretty vague. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! This attitude says it all - he's going to do it regardless of what anyone says, so why bother with advice? What he really wants, I suspect, is to hear someone tell him he's doing something cool. He's cranky because people are pointing out that he's doing something that sounds stupid. IMNSHO, the best advice he's received is to notify his next of kin. Maybe a deposit for the rescue to unburden taxpayers. Mike |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. On one such occastion I was leading a couple of other people on a two day trip down a river that had a lot of class I+ rapids and one class II section. My bosses boss was in a 15 1/2' sea kayak and only had about a years experience. She had no trouble whatsoever handling the class II rapid. But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal as class IV-V if you don't have experience. In fact, it seems like a large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to be seriously undercut. And on a class III river closer to home in the early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the rocks, badly trashed. A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort, IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater paddling anyway. Dangerous boaters are dangerous to everyone else on the water, and I would suggest that this individual stay far, far away from whitewater. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
From: Brian Nystrom Organization: AT&T Worldnet Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle.touring Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:40:59 GMT Subject: Whi****er in a recreational kayak???? Steve Landis wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote: "David J. Van den Branden" wrote: From: (Odin) Hey Kayaking people Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. I am looking for info from normal people, Like I said. Have a ball. So why did you even bother to reply to the post????? You're right. I'm sorry. I should have been more constructive. To that end; you asked if there was something you could do to improve the Sparky in a white water environment. Check out the product offered at the following web site. You may benefit from it. http://www.sponsonguy.com/ Regards DV Judging by the eloquence of his last response, I suspect he and Timmy will get along just peachy. They can rant with each other endlessly. As for constructive suggestions, here's one: Sell the Sparky and get a real boat! Sparkys and their ilk are meant for little more than floating around in calm ponds. If you want to paddle whitewater, get a whitewater boat, the necessary safety gear and some instruction. If you just want to be cheap, then David's comment to notify your next of kin was right on the mark. If you need corroboration for that statement, go to www.acanet.org and read their report "Critical Judgement" on paddling deaths. And while you're online, see if you can buy a sense of humor or Ebay... -- Regards Brian Just a word on the "cheap" comment. There are plenty of inexpensive used WW boats available from a variety of sources - www.paddling.net for one. Used WW boats in the $200 to $300(US)are not uncommon. Steve Good point. All of my boats were purchased used. There's a difference between "inexpensive" and "cheap". "Inexpensive" is about monetary cost. "Cheap" is about value, time, effort and attitude. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Class I, Class II, Class III, .......
Can you expect somebody, who is obviously without any clue and experience, to know what he is going to do and to judge the class of a river section on a given day? Sure, the look of foaming roaring rapids is kind of discouraging and will make people reconsider their plans, but there are spots which look very easy/harmless and turn out to be the real killers. Up to a certain point the boater's skills are the limit, then the material comes in. The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea around UH |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
I think he went away already. Maybe ordering some sp**sons.
-Dan V. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Felsenmeer" wrote in
: A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. On one such occastion I was leading a couple of other people on a two day trip down a river that had a lot of class I+ rapids and one class II section. My bosses boss was in a 15 1/2' sea kayak and only had about a years experience. She had no trouble whatsoever handling the class II rapid. But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal as class IV-V if you don't have experience. So is a bathtub with 6" of water in it. Class II, by definition, doesn't require much manoeveribility nor are the consequences severe or is group assistance often required. From the AWA site: class ii: novice. straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which are evident without scouting. occasional maneuvering may be required, but rocks and medium sized waves are easily missed by trained paddlers. swimmers are seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed. rapids that are at the upper end of this difficulty range are designated "class ii+". In fact, it seems like a large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to be seriously undercut. How many of those incidents were in recreational kayaks vs. "real" whitewater kayaks? In conditions up to class II I was suggest that an inexperienced kayaks would less likely capsize in a 9' long, 30" rec boat than in most of the "real" whitewater boats on the market these days. An inexperieced kayak has no business being on anything class III or above, no matter what kind of boat they're in. And on a class III river closer to home in the early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the rocks, badly trashed. Do you think that was a result of the boat or the operator? I'd suggest that whoever was paddling that rec boat would just as likely have run into trouble had they been in a real whitewater boat. A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort, IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater paddling anyway. Whether a Sparky is designed for whitewater or not, even someone with marginal experience could successfully handle whitewater up to class II in one. An inexperience paddler that attempts anything more difficult is dangerous regardless of what they are paddling. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Michael Daly" wrote in
le.rogers.com: On 5-Aug-2003, John Fereira wrote: A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. It doesn't sound like an easy to control kayak either. There's no mention on the Perception web site of such features as thigh hooks etc. That's a pretty basic requirement for controlling edging in any kind of WW. That's fine if his intent is to swim through the WW. In a boat that wide and stable I'd maintain that controlling edging wouldn't be required in some kinds of whitewater. I would imagine that one could just sit in the middle of it and float through class I, I+ rapids forwards, backwards, and sideways without incident. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. Is that class II because of relatively low water levels running through lots of windy paths through rocks or because of scary but straight running wave trains? Both, although instead of rocks one of the rivers was fairly narrow and turny with a few strainers. Some amount of manoevering was necessary but as long as your line was reasonable going into the trickier sections it was pretty easy. On that particular trip, there were about 35 other people in kayaks ranging from a Dagger RPM to a Current Designs Solstice GTS and just about everything in between. Here are a couple of pictures of another spot: http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/gr.../skinners1.gif http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/gr.../skinners2.gif Running a sea kayak through a bunch of haystacks in a straight line is nowhere near as difficult as turning on a dime amid the rocks. No one has defined the conditions other than just WW - pretty vague. Exactly. That's why I didn't presume that WW meant class III or above where quick manoevering might be required. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! This attitude says it all - he's going to do it regardless of what anyone says, so why bother with advice? What he really wants, I suspect, is to hear someone tell him he's doing something cool. He's cranky because people are pointing out that he's doing something that sounds stupid. IMNSHO, the best advice he's received is to notify his next of kin. It wasn't, however, particular useful advice. While the original author wasn't exactly real mature in his responses I bet that there may be many others reading the group that have recreational kayaks, are wondering about paddling some easy whitewater, and are legitimately concerned about how they might do it safely. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
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Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal as class IV-V if you don't have experience. So is a bathtub with 6" of water in it. Class II, by definition, doesn't require much manoeveribility nor are the consequences severe or is group assistance often required. From the AWA site: class ii: novice. straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which are evident without scouting. occasional maneuvering may be required, but rocks and medium sized waves are easily missed by trained paddlers. swimmers are seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed. rapids that are at the upper end of this difficulty range are designated "class ii+". Sure, that's the definition of class II, no argument. But the consequences certainly *can* be severe. IMO, the issue is not the relative difficulty of rapids, it's the potential consequences of an swim/pin/whatever. The key phrase in the above is "trained paddlers." I see no indication that the original poster has any training. In fact, he seems completely oblivious to the risks. In fact, it seems like a large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to be seriously undercut. How many of those incidents were in recreational kayaks vs. "real" whitewater kayaks? In conditions up to class II I was suggest that an inexperienced kayaks would less likely capsize in a 9' long, 30" rec boat than in most of the "real" whitewater boats on the market these days. An inexperieced kayak has no business being on anything class III or above, no matter what kind of boat they're in. If I remember correctly, the person who drowned on the Nantahala came out of a raft. I don't believe there are safe boats, only safe boaters. If you broach on a rock and lean upstream, you're going over regardless of the kind of boat you're paddling. And on a class III river closer to home in the early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the rocks, badly trashed. Do you think that was a result of the boat or the operator? I'd suggest that whoever was paddling that rec boat would just as likely have run into trouble had they been in a real whitewater boat. Well, I couldn't speculate, I guess. I would tend to agree that any paddler who took a rec boat down a whitewater river would suffer the same result regardless of what kind of boat he/she were in (as above). I would, however, suggest that someone who knew how to paddle whitewater and were aware of the risks would not be paddling a rec boat in rapids, and wouldn't have had their boat get wrapped. A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort, IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater paddling anyway. Whether a Sparky is designed for whitewater or not, even someone with marginal experience could successfully handle whitewater up to class II in one. An inexperience paddler that attempts anything more difficult is dangerous regardless of what they are paddling. They *could* handle it, I'm sure. But when it comes time to rescue someone like that, do you want to be the one on the hook to provide the rescue? I think almost all of us would provide assistance without hesitation. But should we be put in that position in the first place? I would say not. If you take an ACA course on beginning kayaking, one of the very first things they'll tell you is that kayaking is inherently dangerous and could have serious consequenses, up to and including death. Although probably phrased a little coarsely, that's exactly what those who have responded negatively to the original post have suggested... |
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