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Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Hey Kayaking people
I wanted to know your thoughts on whitewater in a perception sparky. I am wondering if anyone has used it in ww and what problems i would run across. Also if i could do anything to make it better in ww. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! thanks, |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
From: (Odin) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle.touring Date: 3 Aug 2003 18:25:36 -0700 Subject: Whi****er in a recreational kayak???? Hey Kayaking people I wanted to know your thoughts on whitewater in a perception sparky. I am wondering if anyone has used it in ww and what problems i would run across. Also if i could do anything to make it better in ww. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! thanks, Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. Oh, you might want to jot down a little note specifying who you want to leave the Sparky to... If they ever find it. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Odin" wrote in message m... "David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message ... From: (Odin) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle.touring Date: 3 Aug 2003 18:25:36 -0700 Subject: Whi****er in a recreational kayak???? Hey Kayaking people I wanted to know your thoughts on whitewater in a perception sparky. I am wondering if anyone has used it in ww and what problems i would run across. Also if i could do anything to make it better in ww. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! thanks, Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. Oh, you might want to jot down a little note specifying who you want to leave the Sparky to... If they ever find it. I am looking for info from normal people, not people who sat in the front row in school and held the teachers hand . I am sure there have been people who have went in whitewater with a barrell, so save your 8 year old girl saftey for someone else. And you save your 6 year old girl sensitivity and lack of sense of humor. You said you wanted thoughts. You got thoughts. Like I said. Have a ball. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message ...
"Odin" wrote in message m... "David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message ... From: (Odin) Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle.touring Date: 3 Aug 2003 18:25:36 -0700 Subject: Whi****er in a recreational kayak???? Hey Kayaking people I wanted to know your thoughts on whitewater in a perception sparky. I am wondering if anyone has used it in ww and what problems i would run across. Also if i could do anything to make it better in ww. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! thanks, Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. Oh, you might want to jot down a little note specifying who you want to leave the Sparky to... If they ever find it. I am looking for info from normal people, not people who sat in the front row in school and held the teachers hand . I am sure there have been people who have went in whitewater with a barrell, so save your 8 year old girl saftey for someone else. And you save your 6 year old girl sensitivity and lack of sense of humor. You said you wanted thoughts. You got thoughts. Like I said. Have a ball. So why did you even bother to reply to the post????? And if you call that humor you got a big problem! I stated what i was looking for, you just chose to reply with a faggots response. I dont need a fag like you to tell me to notify my next of kin!!! You were that kid , who everyone made fun of, becuase he was scared to do anything. So save your fears for yourself, people like me arent interested in hearing from ( girly men like you) LOL , Your response shows your lack of guts, stick to replying to people who want to hear your views, i DONT!!! |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
I stated what i was looking for, you just chose to reply with a faggots response. I dont need a fag like you to tell me to notify my next of kin!!! You were that kid , who everyone made fun of, becuase he was scared to do anything. So save your fears for yourself, people like me arent interested in hearing from ( girly men like you) Sheesh. I'm sorry I gave you a serious response now. Hope you can swim well. Practice your wet exit. Ahhhh, natural selection online. I love it! |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
From: (Odin) Hey Kayaking people Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. I am looking for info from normal people, Like I said. Have a ball. So why did you even bother to reply to the post????? You're right. I'm sorry. I should have been more constructive. To that end; you asked if there was something you could do to improve the Sparky in a white water environment. Check out the product offered at the following web site. You may benefit from it. http://www.sponsonguy.com/ Regards DV |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"David J. Van den Branden" wrote: From: (Odin) Hey Kayaking people Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. I am looking for info from normal people, Like I said. Have a ball. So why did you even bother to reply to the post????? You're right. I'm sorry. I should have been more constructive. To that end; you asked if there was something you could do to improve the Sparky in a white water environment. Check out the product offered at the following web site. You may benefit from it. http://www.sponsonguy.com/ Regards DV Judging by the eloquence of his last response, I suspect he and Timmy will get along just peachy. They can rant with each other endlessly. As for constructive suggestions, here's one: Sell the Sparky and get a real boat! Sparkys and their ilk are meant for little more than floating around in calm ponds. If you want to paddle whitewater, get a whitewater boat, the necessary safety gear and some instruction. If you just want to be cheap, then David's comment to notify your next of kin was right on the mark. If you need corroboration for that statement, go to www.acanet.org and read their report "Critical Judgement" on paddling deaths. And while you're online, see if you can buy a sense of humor or Ebay... -- Regards Brian |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
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Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Brian Nystrom wrote:
"David J. Van den Branden" wrote: From: (Odin) Hey Kayaking people Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. I am looking for info from normal people, Like I said. Have a ball. So why did you even bother to reply to the post????? You're right. I'm sorry. I should have been more constructive. To that end; you asked if there was something you could do to improve the Sparky in a white water environment. Check out the product offered at the following web site. You may benefit from it. http://www.sponsonguy.com/ Regards DV Judging by the eloquence of his last response, I suspect he and Timmy will get along just peachy. They can rant with each other endlessly. As for constructive suggestions, here's one: Sell the Sparky and get a real boat! Sparkys and their ilk are meant for little more than floating around in calm ponds. If you want to paddle whitewater, get a whitewater boat, the necessary safety gear and some instruction. If you just want to be cheap, then David's comment to notify your next of kin was right on the mark. If you need corroboration for that statement, go to www.acanet.org and read their report "Critical Judgement" on paddling deaths. And while you're online, see if you can buy a sense of humor or Ebay... -- Regards Brian Just a word on the "cheap" comment. There are plenty of inexpensive used WW boats available from a variety of sources - www.paddling.net for one. Used WW boats in the $200 to $300(US)are not uncommon. Steve |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
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Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
On 5-Aug-2003, John Fereira wrote:
A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. It doesn't sound like an easy to control kayak either. There's no mention on the Perception web site of such features as thigh hooks etc. That's a pretty basic requirement for controlling edging in any kind of WW. That's fine if his intent is to swim through the WW. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. Is that class II because of relatively low water levels running through lots of windy paths through rocks or because of scary but straight running wave trains? Running a sea kayak through a bunch of haystacks in a straight line is nowhere near as difficult as turning on a dime amid the rocks. No one has defined the conditions other than just WW - pretty vague. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! This attitude says it all - he's going to do it regardless of what anyone says, so why bother with advice? What he really wants, I suspect, is to hear someone tell him he's doing something cool. He's cranky because people are pointing out that he's doing something that sounds stupid. IMNSHO, the best advice he's received is to notify his next of kin. Maybe a deposit for the rescue to unburden taxpayers. Mike |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. On one such occastion I was leading a couple of other people on a two day trip down a river that had a lot of class I+ rapids and one class II section. My bosses boss was in a 15 1/2' sea kayak and only had about a years experience. She had no trouble whatsoever handling the class II rapid. But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal as class IV-V if you don't have experience. In fact, it seems like a large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to be seriously undercut. And on a class III river closer to home in the early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the rocks, badly trashed. A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort, IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater paddling anyway. Dangerous boaters are dangerous to everyone else on the water, and I would suggest that this individual stay far, far away from whitewater. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
From: Brian Nystrom Organization: AT&T Worldnet Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle.touring Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:40:59 GMT Subject: Whi****er in a recreational kayak???? Steve Landis wrote: Brian Nystrom wrote: "David J. Van den Branden" wrote: From: (Odin) Hey Kayaking people Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. I am looking for info from normal people, Like I said. Have a ball. So why did you even bother to reply to the post????? You're right. I'm sorry. I should have been more constructive. To that end; you asked if there was something you could do to improve the Sparky in a white water environment. Check out the product offered at the following web site. You may benefit from it. http://www.sponsonguy.com/ Regards DV Judging by the eloquence of his last response, I suspect he and Timmy will get along just peachy. They can rant with each other endlessly. As for constructive suggestions, here's one: Sell the Sparky and get a real boat! Sparkys and their ilk are meant for little more than floating around in calm ponds. If you want to paddle whitewater, get a whitewater boat, the necessary safety gear and some instruction. If you just want to be cheap, then David's comment to notify your next of kin was right on the mark. If you need corroboration for that statement, go to www.acanet.org and read their report "Critical Judgement" on paddling deaths. And while you're online, see if you can buy a sense of humor or Ebay... -- Regards Brian Just a word on the "cheap" comment. There are plenty of inexpensive used WW boats available from a variety of sources - www.paddling.net for one. Used WW boats in the $200 to $300(US)are not uncommon. Steve Good point. All of my boats were purchased used. There's a difference between "inexpensive" and "cheap". "Inexpensive" is about monetary cost. "Cheap" is about value, time, effort and attitude. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Class I, Class II, Class III, .......
Can you expect somebody, who is obviously without any clue and experience, to know what he is going to do and to judge the class of a river section on a given day? Sure, the look of foaming roaring rapids is kind of discouraging and will make people reconsider their plans, but there are spots which look very easy/harmless and turn out to be the real killers. Up to a certain point the boater's skills are the limit, then the material comes in. The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea around UH |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
I think he went away already. Maybe ordering some sp**sons.
-Dan V. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Felsenmeer" wrote in
: A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. On one such occastion I was leading a couple of other people on a two day trip down a river that had a lot of class I+ rapids and one class II section. My bosses boss was in a 15 1/2' sea kayak and only had about a years experience. She had no trouble whatsoever handling the class II rapid. But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal as class IV-V if you don't have experience. So is a bathtub with 6" of water in it. Class II, by definition, doesn't require much manoeveribility nor are the consequences severe or is group assistance often required. From the AWA site: class ii: novice. straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which are evident without scouting. occasional maneuvering may be required, but rocks and medium sized waves are easily missed by trained paddlers. swimmers are seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed. rapids that are at the upper end of this difficulty range are designated "class ii+". In fact, it seems like a large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to be seriously undercut. How many of those incidents were in recreational kayaks vs. "real" whitewater kayaks? In conditions up to class II I was suggest that an inexperienced kayaks would less likely capsize in a 9' long, 30" rec boat than in most of the "real" whitewater boats on the market these days. An inexperieced kayak has no business being on anything class III or above, no matter what kind of boat they're in. And on a class III river closer to home in the early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the rocks, badly trashed. Do you think that was a result of the boat or the operator? I'd suggest that whoever was paddling that rec boat would just as likely have run into trouble had they been in a real whitewater boat. A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort, IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater paddling anyway. Whether a Sparky is designed for whitewater or not, even someone with marginal experience could successfully handle whitewater up to class II in one. An inexperience paddler that attempts anything more difficult is dangerous regardless of what they are paddling. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Michael Daly" wrote in
le.rogers.com: On 5-Aug-2003, John Fereira wrote: A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. It doesn't sound like an easy to control kayak either. There's no mention on the Perception web site of such features as thigh hooks etc. That's a pretty basic requirement for controlling edging in any kind of WW. That's fine if his intent is to swim through the WW. In a boat that wide and stable I'd maintain that controlling edging wouldn't be required in some kinds of whitewater. I would imagine that one could just sit in the middle of it and float through class I, I+ rapids forwards, backwards, and sideways without incident. Even someone with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times. Is that class II because of relatively low water levels running through lots of windy paths through rocks or because of scary but straight running wave trains? Both, although instead of rocks one of the rivers was fairly narrow and turny with a few strainers. Some amount of manoevering was necessary but as long as your line was reasonable going into the trickier sections it was pretty easy. On that particular trip, there were about 35 other people in kayaks ranging from a Dagger RPM to a Current Designs Solstice GTS and just about everything in between. Here are a couple of pictures of another spot: http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/gr.../skinners1.gif http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/gr.../skinners2.gif Running a sea kayak through a bunch of haystacks in a straight line is nowhere near as difficult as turning on a dime amid the rocks. No one has defined the conditions other than just WW - pretty vague. Exactly. That's why I didn't presume that WW meant class III or above where quick manoevering might be required. " Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!! This attitude says it all - he's going to do it regardless of what anyone says, so why bother with advice? What he really wants, I suspect, is to hear someone tell him he's doing something cool. He's cranky because people are pointing out that he's doing something that sounds stupid. IMNSHO, the best advice he's received is to notify his next of kin. It wasn't, however, particular useful advice. While the original author wasn't exactly real mature in his responses I bet that there may be many others reading the group that have recreational kayaks, are wondering about paddling some easy whitewater, and are legitimately concerned about how they might do it safely. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
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Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal as class IV-V if you don't have experience. So is a bathtub with 6" of water in it. Class II, by definition, doesn't require much manoeveribility nor are the consequences severe or is group assistance often required. From the AWA site: class ii: novice. straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which are evident without scouting. occasional maneuvering may be required, but rocks and medium sized waves are easily missed by trained paddlers. swimmers are seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed. rapids that are at the upper end of this difficulty range are designated "class ii+". Sure, that's the definition of class II, no argument. But the consequences certainly *can* be severe. IMO, the issue is not the relative difficulty of rapids, it's the potential consequences of an swim/pin/whatever. The key phrase in the above is "trained paddlers." I see no indication that the original poster has any training. In fact, he seems completely oblivious to the risks. In fact, it seems like a large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to be seriously undercut. How many of those incidents were in recreational kayaks vs. "real" whitewater kayaks? In conditions up to class II I was suggest that an inexperienced kayaks would less likely capsize in a 9' long, 30" rec boat than in most of the "real" whitewater boats on the market these days. An inexperieced kayak has no business being on anything class III or above, no matter what kind of boat they're in. If I remember correctly, the person who drowned on the Nantahala came out of a raft. I don't believe there are safe boats, only safe boaters. If you broach on a rock and lean upstream, you're going over regardless of the kind of boat you're paddling. And on a class III river closer to home in the early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the rocks, badly trashed. Do you think that was a result of the boat or the operator? I'd suggest that whoever was paddling that rec boat would just as likely have run into trouble had they been in a real whitewater boat. Well, I couldn't speculate, I guess. I would tend to agree that any paddler who took a rec boat down a whitewater river would suffer the same result regardless of what kind of boat he/she were in (as above). I would, however, suggest that someone who knew how to paddle whitewater and were aware of the risks would not be paddling a rec boat in rapids, and wouldn't have had their boat get wrapped. A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort, IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater paddling anyway. Whether a Sparky is designed for whitewater or not, even someone with marginal experience could successfully handle whitewater up to class II in one. An inexperience paddler that attempts anything more difficult is dangerous regardless of what they are paddling. They *could* handle it, I'm sure. But when it comes time to rescue someone like that, do you want to be the one on the hook to provide the rescue? I think almost all of us would provide assistance without hesitation. But should we be put in that position in the first place? I would say not. If you take an ACA course on beginning kayaking, one of the very first things they'll tell you is that kayaking is inherently dangerous and could have serious consequenses, up to and including death. Although probably phrased a little coarsely, that's exactly what those who have responded negatively to the original post have suggested... |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Class I, Class II, Class III, ....... Can you expect somebody, who is obviously without any clue and experience, to know what he is going to do and to judge the class of a river section on a given day? I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously without any clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to judge the difficulties and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses to paddle. As a result, he's potentially a danger to himself and anyone else on the river. Sure, the look of foaming roaring rapids is kind of discouraging and will make people reconsider their plans, but there are spots which look very easy/harmless and turn out to be the real killers. Which is why I suggest that even class II water is unsafe for someone who doesn't know what he's doing. Up to a certain point the boater's skills are the limit, then the material comes in. Absolutely. And if the boater's skills are limited, trouble may not be too far ahead. The kind of boat you paddle isn't going to help you, your skills and abilities are. The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea around It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some of the replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Michael Daly wrote:
Perception kayaks, particularly the sea kayaks, are among the worst on the market. They handle poorly (many _require_ a rudder) and many of us know that kayaks should handle without a rudder. So much for Perception. Weren't you the one selling a glass Shadow back last spring? Seemed like you thought pretty highly of that boat back then? :) Perception makes boats that range from the Sparky to real WW boats to $3K Kevlar sea kayaks. Some of them are very popular. I think you're generalizing too much. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
On 7-Aug-2003, Steve Cramer wrote:
Weren't you the one selling a glass Shadow back last spring? Seemed like you thought pretty highly of that boat back then? :) I never said anything about it that would indicate that I liked it. My SO is selling it. Why would she sell a good boat? Perception makes boats that range from the Sparky to real WW boats to $3K Kevlar sea kayaks. Some of them are very popular. I think you're generalizing too much. Their "top of the line" sea kayaks handle very poorly in rough conditions. The Shadow and Eclipse both need a rudder. They wander like crazy in rough seas. No kayak should rely on a rudder. If it can't track reasonably without a rudder, it's a liability. Popularity is rarely an indicator of quality. Look at MS Windows. Perception is all over the place, but they are second-rate kayaks compared to the competition. Mike |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Felsenmeer" wrote in
: Class I, Class II, Class III, ....... Can you expect somebody, who is obviously without any clue and experience, to know what he is going to do and to judge the class of a river section on a given day? I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously without any clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to judge the difficulties and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses to paddle. As a result, he's potentially a danger to himself and anyone else on the river. Yet everyone chose to ignore the issue of experience and focused on the boat that he wanted to paddle. I don't recall seeing "if you want to paddle on whitewater you should take some classes first". Sure, the look of foaming roaring rapids is kind of discouraging and will make people reconsider their plans, but there are spots which look very easy/harmless and turn out to be the real killers. Which is why I suggest that even class II water is unsafe for someone who doesn't know what he's doing. While I agree that even class II water *can* have catastrophic consequenses (as could tripping and falling head first into a bathtub full of water) the risks are most likely pretty low. I would guess that one puts themselves in greater risk driving back and forth to the river. Up to a certain point the boater's skills are the limit, then the material comes in. Absolutely. And if the boater's skills are limited, trouble may not be too far ahead. The kind of boat you paddle isn't going to help you, your skills and abilities are. The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea around It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some of the replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll. Baloney. Given the huge growth of recreational kayaks in the past few years it's a valid question that deserves more than a knee jerk reaction. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously without any clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to judge the difficulties and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses to paddle. As a result, he's potentially a danger to himself and anyone else on the river. Yet everyone chose to ignore the issue of experience and focused on the boat that he wanted to paddle. I don't recall seeing "if you want to paddle on whitewater you should take some classes first". Try running that thought past the whitewater kayaking community and see what kind of reponse you get... While I agree that even class II water *can* have catastrophic consequenses (as could tripping and falling head first into a bathtub full of water) the risks are most likely pretty low. I would guess that one puts themselves in greater risk driving back and forth to the river. I'm not sure the "reductio ad absurdum" argument works here. You could get hit by a car crossing the street. We've been debating the class II whitewater issue, but the original poster just said whitewater. Check around the whitewater messageboards on the internet sometime, and see what kinds of whitewater people are tubing, floating, etc. You regularly see posts about kayakers having to rescue Joe Sixpack or his daughter because they just aired up their Walmart raft and tryed to float the Chatooga or something. This guy doesn't strike me as any different; I've seen it too many times. I guarantee you that people are taking their lives in their hands on a daily basis, trying to treat serious whitewater rivers as a "float stream." The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea around It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some of the replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll. Baloney. Given the huge growth of recreational kayaks in the past few years it's a valid question that deserves more than a knee jerk reaction. It's not a knee jerk reaction. You're right that it's a valid question. And the answer to that question is: rec boats shouldn't be on whitewater. Period. They're designed for fla****er, or typical moving water, not whitewater. I don't see any difference between suggesting that it's OK for this guy to paddle whitewater in a boat not designed for it, or suggesting that it's OK to get out on Tampa Bay wearing a cotton Tshirt and PFD stowed in your hatch because its a calm day and the weather forecast is clear. If you're going to be safe, be safe. Too many people are getting hurt or killed out there because they're rolling the dice. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Felsenmeer" wrote in
: I agree with you. The original poster appears to be "obviously without any clue and experience." Thus he's not in a position to judge the difficulties and danger of whatever whitewater he chooses to paddle. As a result, he's potentially a danger to himself and anyone else on the river. Yet everyone chose to ignore the issue of experience and focused on the boat that he wanted to paddle. I don't recall seeing "if you want to paddle on whitewater you should take some classes first". Try running that thought past the whitewater kayaking community and see what kind of reponse you get... I've been reading rec.boats.paddle (which despite it's generic name does have a whitewater focus) and from what I've seen the general consensus appears to be that taking classes first is a good idea. Just look at any thread in which a newcomer has asked about how to get into the sport. I also was involved in the off line discussion which led to the creation of this newsgroup. I also go beyond just telling people to take classes. Every winter I teach first time kayakers in whitewater kayaks the basics (and have taught quite a few how to roll on their first day) and help teach beginning and intermediate classes in sea kayaks out of a local shop, purely on a volunteer basis. While I agree that even class II water *can* have catastrophic consequenses (as could tripping and falling head first into a bathtub full of water) the risks are most likely pretty low. I would guess that one puts themselves in greater risk driving back and forth to the river. I'm not sure the "reductio ad absurdum" argument works here. You could get hit by a car crossing the street. We've been debating the class II whitewater issue, but the original poster just said whitewater. It's not an "reductio ad absurdum" arguement. In terms of risk assessment paddling on class II whitewater falls in between paddling on a calm pond and paddling on class IV-V whitewater. Driving back and forth from home and the river is in there somewhere too. My guess is that the risks of driving to/from the river are much closer to paddling higher rated rivers than paddling a Sparky on a calm pond. Check around the whitewater messageboards on the internet sometime, and see what kinds of whitewater people are tubing, floating, etc. You regularly see posts about kayakers having to rescue Joe Sixpack or his daughter because they just aired up their Walmart raft and tryed to float the Chatooga or something. This guy doesn't strike me as any different; I've seen it too many times. I fully understand the dangers of paddling and have been reading online paddling forums for six (at least) years so I've seen most of the incident reports. I guarantee you that people are taking their lives in their hands on a daily basis, trying to treat serious whitewater rivers as a "float stream." Define serious whitewater. The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with an idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea around It *is* a bit gaga. If the original poster hadn't responded to some of the replies, I would have guessed this was all one big troll. Baloney. Given the huge growth of recreational kayaks in the past few years it's a valid question that deserves more than a knee jerk reaction. It's not a knee jerk reaction. You're right that it's a valid question. And the answer to that question is: rec boats shouldn't be on whitewater. Period. No, that answer is elitist bull****. They're designed for fla****er, or typical moving water, not whitewater. Whitewater kayaks aren't designed for open water paddling either. Just out of curiosity, have you ever paddled a recreational kayak on a class II river? I don't see any difference between suggesting that it's OK for this guy to paddle whitewater in a boat not designed for it, or suggesting that it's OK to get out on Tampa Bay wearing a cotton Tshirt and PFD stowed in your hatch because its a calm day and the weather forecast is clear. If you're going to be safe, be safe. Too many people are getting hurt or killed out there because they're rolling the dice. or driving a car. When it comes to assessing risk and determining what is safe and what is not one has to draw the line somewhere. In my mind, and based on my experience, the risks involved in paddling a recreational on moving water up to class II are essentially the same as the risks involved in paddling a "real" whitewater kayak on moving water up to class II. Where the risk differs is, IMHO, based more on the skill level of the paddler and specific knowledge of what the risks are and how best to mitigate them, rather that the craft being paddled. Flippant responses such as "notify your next of kin" or banning recreational kayaks from all forms of whitewater serve no redeemable purpose whatsoever. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Felsenmeer" wrote in message ... After I got my ACA certification, I started teaching with a local whitewater club (it's all volunteer), Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that killed 1000 americans.... |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that
killed 1000 americans.... OK, I'll bite- how has the ACA instructor program killed 1000 Americans? Let's see some good, solid, factual info... |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that killed 1000 americans.... OK, I'll bite- how has the ACA instructor program killed 1000 Americans? Let's see some good, solid, factual info... Now I get it :-) Obviously "good, solid, factual info" will not be forthcoming anytime soon. I'll have to read Timmy's book sometime (assuming I can get a copy at the library so I don't have to plunk down any cash for it...) |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"Felsenmeer" wrote in message ... Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that killed 1000 americans.... OK, I'll bite- how has the ACA instructor program killed 1000 Americans? Let's see some good, solid, factual info... Now I get it :-) Obviously "good, solid, factual info" will not be forthcoming anytime soon. Nope. I'll have to read Timmy's book sometime Why not just have someone drive screws through your toes? |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
I'll have to read Timmy's book sometime Why not just have someone drive screws through your toes? I think his sponsonbabble is hysterical. When he was getting it on with the folks back on Wavelength, it was like having a ringside seat at the circus. I love it. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
I agree with felsenmeer. Not enough boat and not enough experience
and training are the formula for disaster. There is a reason why they make WW, rec and touring boats. Read the subject line WW in a rec boat? Doesn't that answer the question. |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
Felsenmeer wrote: Volunteer! Glad to see you're not part of the canoe and kayak scam that killed 1000 americans.... OK, I'll bite- how has the ACA instructor program killed 1000 Americans? Let's see some good, solid, factual info... Now I get it :-) Obviously "good, solid, factual info" will not be forthcoming anytime soon. I'll have to read Timmy's book sometime (assuming I can get a copy at the library so I don't have to plunk down any cash for it...) Then you'll probably have to buy it in E-book form, as the book is not "published" in the traditional sense. It's just available from an E-book website. Think about it, what publisher would invest any money in this crackpot? -- Regards Brian |
Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
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Whitwater in a recreational kayak????
"John Fereira" wrote in message . .. (ckayak) wrote in news:1bd7a8d0.0308122031.59e7ec16 @posting.google.com: Categorically stating that it's unsafe to paddle whitewater (even class II or lower) in a recreational boat implies that a whitewater boat somehow makes a paddler safer. Boats don't make paddlers safer. Experience, training, and common sense makes paddlers safer. I disagree completely. Non-WW designs are much more edgy, much harder to keep upright, and much more likely to result in a swim. They can be paddled successfully in WW but it takes experience and skill which a novice does not possess. The original poster in this thread just didn't want to buy another hull and figured he could take his rec kayak in WW. My first thoughts were, this guy is obviously inexperienced with WW and even if he possessed the skills to complete a WW run in a rec kayak, who wants that headache ? It can be done but it's no fun ! Doesn't this discussion belong in the WW paddling newsgroup anyhow ? Te Canaille |
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