wrote in
:

On 4 Aug 2003 08:25:57 -0700, (Odin) wrote:

"David J. Van den Branden" wrote in message
...
From: (Odin)
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle.touring
Date: 3 Aug 2003 18:25:36 -0700
Subject: Whi****er in a recreational kayak????

Hey Kayaking people


I wanted to know your thoughts on whitewater in a perception
sparky. I am wondering if anyone has used it in ww and what
problems i would run across.

Also if i could do anything to make it better in ww.


" Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter
what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!!


thanks,


Just notify your next of kin and have a ball. Oh, you might want to
jot down a little note specifying who you want to leave the Sparky
to... If they ever find it.



I am looking for info from normal people, not people who sat in the
front row in school and held the teachers hand . I am sure there have
been people who have went in whitewater with a barrell, so save your 8
year old girl saftey for someone else.


He gave you good advice. I've looked at the pictures and description
of the "Sparky". IMHO It'd be a disaster for any but the best of
boaters to take this in whitewater. It's bow and stearn design show
very linear cut, for tracking straight. The description talks of
double tracking channels. This is a boat that wants to go straight.

Baloney. The Sparky is a recreational kayak that is neither designed for
going straight nor whitewater. It's designed for calm conditions for
someone that feels they need a lot of initial stability, useful for
photography or just very casual paddling.

A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat
hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. Even someone with minimal
skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II.
The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V
whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak)
through class II whitewater several times. On one such occastion I was
leading a couple of other people on a two day trip down a river that had a
lot of class I+ rapids and one class II section. My bosses boss was in a 15
1/2' sea kayak and only had about a years experience. She had no trouble
whatsoever handling the class II rapid.

He also asked what could be done to improve the Sparky to make it better in
whitewater, a question that nobody seems to have bothered to answer (though,
Brian eluded to it). As he mentioned, first you're going to need a spray
deck that will fit it. Next, you're going to need how to exit the boat and
release the spray skirt *when* you capsize. With a cockpit as large as the
Sparky, learning how to roll it won't be easy. You're also going to want to
get float bags for it. While the specs say that it has "molded floatation",
all that is going to do is keep it from sinking entirely should it fill with
water. Float bags in the bow and stern will displace water should you
capsize and allow you to empty the cockpit fairly easily.

As an exercise, go out on a nice calm day on fla****er, paddle out about
30' from shore and tip the Sparky over. Then hold the cockpit under so that
it complete fills with water. Now try getting it back to shore and
completely empty it of water. That should give you a pretty good idea how
useful that "molded floatation" is.

You will have to fight it to turn quickly or draw it from side to
side. Similarly its linear rail will be easily grabbed any eddy line
or wave to flip you quickly. It's short size might compensate some for
these factors, but it looks like a boat designed for flipping you in
whitewater.

Take a look at a whitewater boat, you'll notice rounded rockered
bottoms and bow and stearn, smooth rounded rails (transition from deck
to hull).

These provide mobility and minimize tipping in waves, and
eddies.

So how do you explain the hard sheer line (the seam between the deck and
hull) and chines in a traditional Greenland style kayak. They've paddled in
very large waves and tidal races for centuries.

(Most beginners tip over most at crossing the simple eddy line
into the stream. You don't need waves.)

Personally I'd sooner take an inner tube. Be safe have fun.

A lot of the more recent whitewater boats almost resemble inner tubes.

On 5-Aug-2003, John Fereira wrote:

A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat
hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak.

It doesn't sound like an easy to control kayak either. There's no mention
on the Perception web site of such features as thigh hooks etc. That's a
pretty basic requirement for controlling edging in any kind of WW.
That's fine if his intent is to swim through the WW.

Even someone with minimal
skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class II.
The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V
whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak)
through class II whitewater several times.

Is that class II because of relatively low water levels running through lots of windy
paths through rocks or because of scary but straight running wave trains?
Running a sea kayak through a bunch of haystacks in a straight line is nowhere
near as difficult as turning on a dime amid the rocks. No one has defined the
conditions other than just WW - pretty vague.

" Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no matter
what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!!


This attitude says it all - he's going to do it regardless of what anyone says, so why
bother with advice? What he really wants, I suspect, is to hear someone tell him
he's doing something cool. He's cranky because people are pointing out that
he's doing something that sounds stupid.

IMNSHO, the best advice he's received is to notify his next of kin. Maybe a deposit
for the rescue to unburden taxpayers.

Mike

A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly flat
hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. Even someone with
minimal
skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to class
II.
The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater, not class IV-V
whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak)
through class II whitewater several times. On one such occastion I was
leading a couple of other people on a two day trip down a river that had a
lot of class I+ rapids and one class II section. My bosses boss was in a
15
1/2' sea kayak and only had about a years experience. She had no trouble
whatsoever handling the class II rapid.


But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal as
class IV-V if you don't have experience. In fact, it seems like a large
number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on class II
stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class II, if I recall
correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early this spring on a class
II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory system, after he broached
on an innocent looking rock which happened to be seriously undercut. And on
a class III river closer to home in the early summer, I saw another badly
wrapped rec boat pulled off the rocks, badly trashed. A Sparky has no place
in whitewater of any sort, IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the
way the original poster posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation
for whitewater paddling anyway. Dangerous boaters are dangerous to everyone
else on the water, and I would suggest that this individual stay far, far
away from whitewater.

From: Brian Nystrom
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle.touring
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:40:59 GMT
Subject: Whi****er in a recreational kayak????



Steve Landis wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote:

"David J. Van den Branden" wrote:


From: (Odin)

Hey Kayaking people

Just notify your next of kin and have a ball.

I am looking for info from normal people,

Like I said. Have a ball.

So why did you even bother to reply to the post?????

You're right. I'm sorry. I should have been more constructive. To that
end; you asked if there was something you could do to improve the Sparky in
a white water environment. Check out the product offered at the following
web site. You may benefit from it.

http://www.sponsonguy.com/

Regards

DV


Judging by the eloquence of his last response, I suspect he and Timmy will
get
along just peachy. They can rant with each other endlessly.

As for constructive suggestions, here's one: Sell the Sparky and get a real
boat! Sparkys and their ilk are meant for little more than floating around
in
calm ponds. If you want to paddle whitewater, get a whitewater boat, the
necessary safety gear and some instruction. If you just want to be cheap,
then
David's comment to notify your next of kin was right on the mark. If you
need
corroboration for that statement, go to www.acanet.org and read their report
"Critical Judgement" on paddling deaths.

And while you're online, see if you can buy a sense of humor or Ebay...

--
Regards

Brian


Just a word on the "cheap" comment. There are plenty of inexpensive
used WW boats available from a variety of sources - www.paddling.net for
one. Used WW boats in the $200 to $300(US)are not uncommon.

Steve

Good point. All of my boats were purchased used. There's a difference between
"inexpensive" and "cheap".


"Inexpensive" is about monetary cost. "Cheap" is about value, time, effort
and attitude.

Class I, Class II, Class III, .......
Can you expect somebody, who is obviously without any clue and experience, to
know what he is going to do and to judge the class of a river section on a given
day?
Sure, the look of foaming roaring rapids is kind of discouraging and will make
people reconsider their plans, but there are spots which look very easy/harmless
and turn out to be the real killers.
Up to a certain point the boater's skills are the limit, then the material comes
in.

The whole discussion is a bit gaga, and I wonder if somebody came up with an
idea to stuff the summer hole in this group by throwing a stupid idea around

UH

I think he went away already. Maybe ordering some sp**sons.

-Dan V.

"Felsenmeer" wrote in
:


A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly
flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak. Even someone
with minimal skills should have little trouble manoevering it
whitewater up to class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it
in whitewater, not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer
tracking kayaks (a 16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater
several times. On one such occastion I was leading a couple of other
people on a two day trip down a river that had a lot of class I+
rapids and one class II section. My bosses boss was in a 15 1/2' sea
kayak and only had about a years experience. She had no trouble
whatsoever handling the class II rapid.


But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal
as class IV-V if you don't have experience.

So is a bathtub with 6" of water in it.

Class II, by definition, doesn't require much manoeveribility nor are the
consequences severe or is group assistance often required. From the AWA
site:

class ii: novice. straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which are
evident without scouting. occasional maneuvering may be required, but rocks
and medium sized waves are easily missed by trained paddlers. swimmers are
seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed. rapids
that are at the upper end of this difficulty range are designated "class
ii+".

In fact, it seems like a
large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on
class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class
II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early
this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory
system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to
be seriously undercut.

How many of those incidents were in recreational kayaks vs. "real"
whitewater kayaks? In conditions up to class II I was suggest that an
inexperienced kayaks would less likely capsize in a 9' long, 30" rec boat
than in most of the "real" whitewater boats on the market these days. An
inexperieced kayak has no business being on anything class III or above, no
matter what kind of boat they're in.

And on a class III river closer to home in the
early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the
rocks, badly trashed.

Do you think that was a result of the boat or the operator? I'd suggest
that whoever was paddling that rec boat would just as likely have run into
trouble had they been in a real whitewater boat.

A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort,
IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster
posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater
paddling anyway.

Whether a Sparky is designed for whitewater or not, even someone with
marginal experience could successfully handle whitewater up to class II in
one. An inexperience paddler that attempts anything more difficult is
dangerous regardless of what they are paddling.

"Michael Daly" wrote in
le.rogers.com:

On 5-Aug-2003, John Fereira wrote:

A kayak that is just over 9' long and almost 30" wide with a nearly
flat hull is *not* going to be a stiff tracking kayak.

It doesn't sound like an easy to control kayak either. There's no
mention on the Perception web site of such features as thigh hooks etc.
That's a pretty basic requirement for controlling edging in any kind
of WW. That's fine if his intent is to swim through the WW.

In a boat that wide and stable I'd maintain that controlling edging wouldn't
be required in some kinds of whitewater. I would imagine that one could
just sit in the middle of it and float through class I, I+ rapids forwards,
backwards, and sideways without incident.

Even someone with minimal
skills should have little trouble manoevering it whitewater up to
class II. The orignal author asked about paddling it in whitewater,
not class IV-V whitewater. I've taken much stiffer tracking kayaks (a
16'6" sea kayak) through class II whitewater several times.

Is that class II because of relatively low water levels running through
lots of windy paths through rocks or because of scary but straight
running wave trains?

Both, although instead of rocks one of the rivers was fairly narrow and
turny with a few strainers. Some amount of manoevering was necessary but as
long as your line was reasonable going into the trickier sections it was
pretty easy. On that particular trip, there were about 35 other people in
kayaks ranging from a Dagger RPM to a Current Designs Solstice GTS and just
about everything in between.

Here are a couple of pictures of another spot:

http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/gr.../skinners1.gif
http://mayfly.mannlib.cornell.edu/gr.../skinners2.gif


Running a sea kayak through a bunch of haystacks
in a straight line is nowhere near as difficult as turning on a dime
amid the rocks. No one has defined the conditions other than just WW -
pretty vague.

Exactly. That's why I didn't presume that WW meant class III or above where
quick manoevering might be required.

" Not looking to buy another kayak, gonna take her there no
matter what, looking for some, fearless advice!!!!!


This attitude says it all - he's going to do it regardless of what
anyone says, so why bother with advice? What he really wants, I
suspect, is to hear someone tell him he's doing something cool. He's
cranky because people are pointing out that he's doing something that
sounds stupid.

IMNSHO, the best advice he's received is to notify his next of kin.

It wasn't, however, particular useful advice. While the original author
wasn't exactly real mature in his responses I bet that there may be many
others reading the group that have recreational kayaks, are wondering about
paddling some easy whitewater, and are legitimately concerned about how they
might do it safely.

On 6-Aug-2003, (Odin) wrote:

Hey, Its me. LOL, i had no idea , this would start such a Rage!!!
I got some good responses , that have helped, and the guy who said,
him and his boss went in class 2 and had no problem, was what i was
looking for.

You were looking for someone to tell you it was ok and you rejected any
other answer. Exactly what I said you wanted.

people can do whatever they want in
the good old USA.

And many die in the attempt.

All i was looking for was some useful info.

You were looking for confirmation. What useful information did you get?

Hey, the eskimos , hunted whales form little boats,
if they would of listened to you guys, they would of starved!!!LOL

They designed kayaks that were specific to their needs and practiced their
techniques from childhood. What does that have to do with a fool that
doesn't know enough about WW and his kayak to have to ask the
question in the first place (and insists he's going to do it regardless of
the answer)?

Perception, told me it could go in class 2 water. So that means it
can go in WW , Homework people, Do it, I did. Perception knows
more than YOU!

Driftwood can go thru whitewater.

Perception kayaks, particularly the sea kayaks, are among the worst
on the market. They handle poorly (many _require_ a rudder) and
many of us know that kayaks should handle without a rudder. So
much for Perception.

Mike

But I think you have to consider that class II is every bit as lethal
as class IV-V if you don't have experience.

So is a bathtub with 6" of water in it.

Class II, by definition, doesn't require much manoeveribility nor are the
consequences severe or is group assistance often required. From the AWA
site:

class ii: novice. straightforward rapids with wide, clear channels which
are
evident without scouting. occasional maneuvering may be required, but
rocks
and medium sized waves are easily missed by trained paddlers. swimmers are
seldom injured and group assistance, while helpful, is seldom needed.
rapids
that are at the upper end of this difficulty range are designated "class
ii+".


Sure, that's the definition of class II, no argument. But the consequences
certainly *can* be severe. IMO, the issue is not the relative difficulty of
rapids, it's the potential consequences of an swim/pin/whatever. The key
phrase in the above is "trained paddlers." I see no indication that the
original poster has any training. In fact, he seems completely oblivious to
the risks.

In fact, it seems like a
large number of whitewater accidents I've heard of recently happened on
class II stuff. A recent drowning on the Nantahala occurred in class
II, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine was nearly drowned early
this spring on a class II section of a class IV river in the Obed-Emory
system, after he broached on an innocent looking rock which happened to
be seriously undercut.

How many of those incidents were in recreational kayaks vs. "real"
whitewater kayaks? In conditions up to class II I was suggest that an
inexperienced kayaks would less likely capsize in a 9' long, 30" rec boat
than in most of the "real" whitewater boats on the market these days. An
inexperieced kayak has no business being on anything class III or above,
no
matter what kind of boat they're in.


If I remember correctly, the person who drowned on the Nantahala came out of
a raft. I don't believe there are safe boats, only safe boaters. If you
broach on a rock and lean upstream, you're going over regardless of the kind
of boat you're paddling.

And on a class III river closer to home in the
early summer, I saw another badly wrapped rec boat pulled off the
rocks, badly trashed.

Do you think that was a result of the boat or the operator? I'd suggest
that whoever was paddling that rec boat would just as likely have run into
trouble had they been in a real whitewater boat.


Well, I couldn't speculate, I guess. I would tend to agree that any paddler
who took a rec boat down a whitewater river would suffer the same result
regardless of what kind of boat he/she were in (as above). I would,
however, suggest that someone who knew how to paddle whitewater and were
aware of the risks would not be paddling a rec boat in rapids, and wouldn't
have had their boat get wrapped.

A Sparky has no place in whitewater of any sort,
IMO. It wasn't designed for it, and given the way the original poster
posed the question, he has absolutely no preparation for whitewater
paddling anyway.

Whether a Sparky is designed for whitewater or not, even someone with
marginal experience could successfully handle whitewater up to class II in
one. An inexperience paddler that attempts anything more difficult is
dangerous regardless of what they are paddling.

They *could* handle it, I'm sure. But when it comes time to rescue someone
like that, do you want to be the one on the hook to provide the rescue? I
think almost all of us would provide assistance without hesitation. But
should we be put in that position in the first place? I would say not. If
you take an ACA course on beginning kayaking, one of the very first things
they'll tell you is that kayaking is inherently dangerous and could have
serious consequenses, up to and including death. Although probably phrased
a little coarsely, that's exactly what those who have responded negatively
to the original post have suggested...